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Influencing soil microbial community with above ground plant community

As per direction via MicrobeMan, I have created my own thread on the matter.

I am interested in people's thoughts cover crops ability to change the microbial activity of a soil. I am not talking about using ACT or SST or any other type of compost tea, I am talking specifically about an ecological community being able to shift a separate ecological community in a certain direction.

This is possible:

http://aem.asm.org/content/82/6/1767.full

Above source cites legume addition to cover crop mix will reduce the F:B ratio in the soil.

In addition certain brassicaes can suppress certain forms of pathogenic microbes as well.

I am wondering what are people's perspectives on this.
 

Microbeman

The Logical Gardener
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Thanks for posting this. I will read over the study carefully you linked before commenting on it.

Basically cover crops are either living mulches or are chopped for nutrient value. In my limited experience and scope, clovers can fulfill the role of both. We have used crimson clover chopped and dropped to increase N value and build soil.

Straw varieties cut pre-flower like barley or oats can be used similarly to promote fungal content of soil.

For living mulches which I think is what you are getting at one can use various perennial clovers like red or alsikes. These of course release N into the soil as is commonly known but if infected with mycorrhizal fungi can 'apparently' interconnect with same or other species of plants via the root system. Thereby the fungal network/volume can be increased.

Not only do the fungal networks exchange nutrients from soil to host plant but hypothetically exchange nutrients inter-species plant to plant. Also some plants exudate phytochemicals which can prevent/retard other species of plants from growing, thereby indirectly manipulating the soil microbial population conducive to their growth.

More later.
 
Exactly, that is what I am asking about, specifically the magnitudes of the effect of the root exudates. Logically speaking, bacteria will compete better for less complex molecules than fungi (in general for organic matter), than perhaps a plant that exudates more complex molecules would attract fungi.

Surely a more fibrous species, such as alfalfa or flax, would require a fungal community to decompose decadent plants.

I have read a few other studies on the matter, I will see if I can find them.
 

h.h.

Active member
Veteran
Logically speaking if my dog eats meat, my cat should eat strawberries.
One doesn't really have anything to do with the other.


Certain plant species are associated with different endo species.



Other fungi associate primarily though the soil. They decompose and contribute to soil structure. The plants only control is what it contributes to the litter.

Only my opinion of course.
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
some of the information from the reference I posted



the endorhiza is the soil immediately outside the rhizopshere aka the soil left over when you recycle





Abstract

Understanding microbial partnerships with the medicinally and economically important crop Cannabis has the potential to affect agricultural practice by improving plant fitness and production yield. Furthermore, Cannabis presents an interesting model to explore plant-microbiome interactions as it produces numerous secondary metabolic compounds. Here we present the first description of the endorhiza-, rhizosphere-, and bulk soil-associated microbiome of five distinct Cannabis cultivars. Bacterial communities of the endorhiza showed significant cultivar-specificity. When controlling cultivar and soil type the microbial community structure was significantly different between plant cultivars, soil types, and between the endorhiza, rhizosphere and soil. The influence of soil type, plant cultivar and sample type differentiation on the microbial community structure provides support for a previously published two-tier selection model, whereby community composition across sample types is determined mainly by soil type, while community structure within endorhiza samples is determined mainly by host cultivar.


Introduction

Soil microbes play a major role in plant ecology by providing a variety of benefits such as nitrogen fixation, production of growth stimulants, improved water retention, and suppression of root diseases [1][4]. These vital microbial processes occur predominantly within the rhizosphere and rhizoplane, and are heavily influenced by fungal saprotrophs and plant-mutualists such as endomycorrhizal and ectomycorrhizal fungi [5], [6]. Despite the economic and medicinal importance of Cannabis spp., little is known about its soil-based microbial associations [7], [8].
Microbial composition in soil depends on complex interactions between the soil type, root zone location, and plant species [9][11]. Rhizosphere microbiota are highly dynamic [12], and the composition of bacterial communities can fluctuate in response to seasonal and diel temperature changes [13], water content [14], pH [15], CO2 concentration, and O2 levels [16]. Although evidence has been found for significant effects of plant cultivar on rhizosphere communities [17][19] and endomycorrhizal fungal communities [20], some work suggests that these effects are minimal compared to edaphic factors (particularly pH) or plant growth stage [21], [22].
Rhizosphere bacteria not only colonize the rhizosphere and/or the rhizoplane soil, but can also colonize plant tissues. Bacteria that have colonized root tissue—more specifically known as the endorhiza [23]—have been reported to support plant growth and suppress plant diseases by providing phytohormones, low molecular weight compounds or enzymes involved in regulating growth and metabolism [24][26]. In addition, endorhiza bacteria assist their host plants in tolerating the phytotoxic effects of environmental toxicants [27], [28]. Endorhiza communities tend to be more plant-specific, and are often shaped by the compounds or proteins produced by their host [29]. Both endophytes and epiphytes may also play a role in localized ‘flavor’ or terroir for crop plants, as has been shown recently for wines [30][32].
A growing body of work has united the colonization of both the rhizosphere and plant tissues under the two-tier selection model, where soil type defines the composition of rhizosphere and root-inhabiting bacterial communities [33][35]. Under this model, edaphic factors determine the structure of the local soil microbiota, which become the source for the first bacterial community shift into the nutrient rich environment of the rhizosphere. Following this first shift, migration from the rhizosphere into the plant tissues is based on plant genotype-dependent selection of the endorhiza environment [33]. Along with the prediction that rhizosphere and endorhiza microbiota should be soil-derived, the two-tier selection model predicts several broad changes in phylum-level taxon abundance associated with the shifting microbiota, such as dramatic reduction in Acidobacteria within the endosphere.
This study aims to characterize bacterial diversity in the root and soil systems of five strains of Cannabis in order to explore how soil microbiota and plant strain affect the endorhiza microbial community of this commercially important crop. We hypothesize that different cultivars maintain significantly different microbial communities, and that these differences diminish from endorhiza to rhizosphere to bulk soil.
Community composition across all samples was determined predominantly by soil properties, but differences in community structure (abundance) within endorhiza were driven by Cannabis cultivar
Bulk soil and rhizosphere microbiomes are more similar to each other than to endorhiza microbiomes
Future work with the Cannabis microbiome should focus on elucidating the role of cultivar on rhizosphere, as well as what aspects of host genotype are producing the structure observed across Cannabis strains. Increased testing of cannabinoids and decoupling this variation from edaphic factors will improve our understanding of the importance of cannabinoid production in structuring endorhiza communities. Sampling a time series of endorhiza communities across several plants may help us to understand natural variation in the endorhiza during the reproductive cycles of Cannabis. Understanding this natural variation will help direct future mechanistic studies aimed at using microbial communities to increase plant fitness, suppress disease, or augment desired metabolite production.
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
That is interesting, but all that indicates is that cannabis does not have this ability to influence soil ecology such as other species, specifically forbs and grasses.

https://www.acta.media.pl/pl/action/getfull.php?id=3857


it does for itself


this isn't a general gardening thread it is organic soil specific to marijuana so am I missing something because the purpose of influencing the soil outside of cannabis seems out of context


if you are doing it to improve cultivar performance then that is a different story
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
I think people including many of the organic gurus themselves miss the boat entirely when it comes to cannabis ecology and continue to look past the plant for solutions to grow it better


ecologically the closest available nutrient to any plant is the one it sheds itself so trying to find companion plants to tailor microbiology for cannabis is counter intuitive when you can use the plant itself as they are tailored for communications with subsequent generations through soil interactions
 

xet

Active member
Plant other useful plants you are interested in harvesting. There are thousands of varieties of salad greens, peppers, or other culinary herb, or flowers, to use in other parts of your life and for all different seasons.

This takes the guess work out of why and how and adds substance to achieving a model that works for you with an increasing robust model over time.

Most of the time your intuition will guide you better than hours of NASA journals about legumes helping the growth of salad greens as is my experience. I am not referencing your article but I have read several related studies to my example.

Chances are your favorite things planted will have their own signature fungi footprint to attract other good things you will only know about once you experiment.
 

BerrySeal

Member
Cannabis uses soil biology for its own evolution. If you plant under Pines, pine exudates have attracted microbials that will modify the Cannabis plant through horizontal gene transfer. If you supplant soul from a strawberry field, the bacteria responsible for those traits are in the soil. I'm not sure what everyone else imagines isoprenoid biosynthesis entails, but it's enzymatic, acidic in nature.

Weird makes an interesting point about recycling. When I started vaping my duff went into my potting mix. Skunkier with every watering... Nutes? What? Plants just need water and sun, silly. And whatever the rabbits pull off and shit out below?

Too bad the majority look towards spreadsheets and tipping beams as signs of quality.. Cannabis specialist who refuse to understand what makes Cannabis special: bacteria.

I didn't know shit about growing until I started brewing water kefir. Only real advice I'd offer anyone. Grow bacteria. Only then could I see through the bullshit of modern growing (no bacteria no strain, grow with chems, those chems are your strain essentially as they change the plant). All the bottled powdered voodoo "til harvest" sauces are pretty laughable once you've grown colonies you can actually observe digesting what you feed them, on a daily basis.

Water Kefir tastes like dirty Sprite by the way. Because of the strains present in the colony that create the flavors. YES that's how weed works. Differs colonies different flavors. Ask a nurse if she's ever smelt a "purp" infection. She'll know what you're talking about ;)
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
personally outside of the traditional organic inorganic paradigm I have grown using bacteria only, both bacterial and fungal dominated teas and soils and find that each has subtle differences


what I noticed in my recycled soil is that fungal and bacteria cycle on their own based on cues from the plant which carry over from generation to generation especially paired with the same cultivar



I do not notice direct influence particularly with natural inputs cycled in living soil but rather each lends to differences in expression and this extends to physical/ microbiological composition of soil which science has observed effecting terpene production


this is why I feel this is where the plant expresses as it would in nature (at least in regards to rhizosphere interactions) which gives the true baseline of performance for a cultivar and from a breeding perspective this should be a strong considerations as a required element of that breeding program
 

Microbeman

The Logical Gardener
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I've become a little short on time to read thoroughly so this may have been addressed. I want to explain my previous comment (in my thread) about garnering microbes from grassland as opposed to forest soil if the intention is to enhance cannabis growth.

The reason is simply that the microbial consortia found in grasslands are more evolved to support the growth of plants like vegetables, legumes and cannabis. There may be some soil microbes from a forest beneficial to growing cannabis depending on the types of trees but overall the fungal species in the forest are more conducive to trees of course.

If one is gathering fungal species from a redwood/sequoia forest to support cannabis they could be in luck because these trees are mycorrhizal with VA - endomycorrhizal fungi as are cannabis plants, grasses and most vegetables. Many broad leaved trees and cedars are also endomycorrhizal. These do not produce mushrooms.

Pine/fir - conifer forests are mostly mycorrhizal with ectomycorrhizal fungi which (apparently) do not form symbiotic associations with cannabis. Many of these do form fruiting bodies and some are delicious. Some of these are basidiomycetes and ascomycetes species and many of these are the tasty gourmet mushrooms consumed by us humans (mostly basidiomycetes).

There are some current hypotheses that these species do pass nutrients to cannabis and vegetables. Some basidiomycetes are excellent degraders (saprotrophic) and thrive on organic matter topdressed in gardens. If you wish to increase fungal volume in your soil why not seed some species of edible mushrooms in addition to inoculating with endomycorrhizal spores? (rather than the efforts some go through to get the wrong microbes from forest soil)

Also I wanted to mention that the phytochemicals excreted by plants to prohibit other plant species and disease are a separate level from the nutrient garnering exudates. (to my knowledge thus far)
 

bsgospel

Bat Macumba
As a resource tangent to this topic: Ep 11 of the KIS podcast with Dr. Faust- mins 20-35. His concepts and the questions Tad asked to guide the discussion are excellent.

Microbeman- your episode was excellent, too. :) I'm really thankful for the stories and work you've done.

The minutes indicated support a fungal system and treat the responses of the plant in a very cool light. I wish I could say more but Faust says it better.
 
I've become a little short on time to read thoroughly so this may have been addressed. I want to explain my previous comment (in my thread) about garnering microbes from grassland as opposed to forest soil if the intention is to enhance cannabis growth.

The reason is simply that the microbial consortia found in grasslands are more evolved to support the growth of plants like vegetables, legumes and cannabis. There may be some soil microbes from a forest beneficial to growing cannabis depending on the types of trees but overall the fungal species in the forest are more conducive to trees of course.

If one is gathering fungal species from a redwood/sequoia forest to support cannabis they could be in luck because these trees are mycorrhizal with VA - endomycorrhizal fungi as are cannabis plants, grasses and most vegetables. Many broad leaved trees and cedars are also endomycorrhizal. These do not produce mushrooms.

Pine/fir - conifer forests are mostly mycorrhizal with ectomycorrhizal fungi which (apparently) do not form symbiotic associations with cannabis. Many of these do form fruiting bodies and some are delicious. Some of these are basidiomycetes and ascomycetes species and many of these are the tasty gourmet mushrooms consumed by us humans (mostly basidiomycetes).

There are some current hypotheses that these species do pass nutrients to cannabis and vegetables. Some basidiomycetes are excellent degraders (saprotrophic) and thrive on organic matter topdressed in gardens. If you wish to increase fungal volume in your soil why not seed some species of edible mushrooms in addition to inoculating with endomycorrhizal spores? (rather than the efforts some go through to get the wrong microbes from forest soil)

Also I wanted to mention that the phytochemicals excreted by plants to prohibit other plant species and disease are a separate level from the nutrient garnering exudates. (to my knowledge thus far)


My interest is more so related to ecology structurig rather than symbiosis for benefitting cannabis. For instance, using brassicaes to lower pathogenic microbes, organic matter decay increases from certain community structures becoming bolstered, etc.



As far as just dropping spores into a pot, I've never had success with that, but I have gotten mushrooms to grow after getting forest duff into my pots.
Most of the time spores cannot compete with the community structures already present. For instance some species need to pass through cow digestive tract to grow on the paddies. They don't just fall onto them.
 

Microbeman

The Logical Gardener
ICMag Donor
Veteran
What are you cultivating then?
The mushrooms I mentioned are not symbiotic with cannabis. I have had mushrooms growing without using forest duff but in bins - no-till.
Strains of Trichoderma are good anti-pathogens.
Maybe you should go ahead and experiment with the brassicas to evaluate the potential efficacy. They may prove difficult to maintain as a living mulch [depending on your purpose]. Perhaps pennycress may be short enough.
 
Last edited:

kushdream

New member
I've become a little short on time to read thoroughly so this may have been addressed. I want to explain my previous comment (in my thread) about garnering microbes from grassland as opposed to forest soil if the intention is to enhance cannabis growth.

The reason is simply that the microbial consortia found in grasslands are more evolved to support the growth of plants like vegetables, legumes and cannabis. There may be some soil microbes from a forest beneficial to growing cannabis depending on the types of trees but overall the fungal species in the forest are more conducive to trees of course.

If one is gathering fungal species from a redwood/sequoia forest to support cannabis they could be in luck because these trees are mycorrhizal with VA - endomycorrhizal fungi as are cannabis plants, grasses and most vegetables. Many broad leaved trees and cedars are also endomycorrhizal. These do not produce mushrooms.

Pine/fir - conifer forests are mostly mycorrhizal with ectomycorrhizal fungi which (apparently) do not form symbiotic associations with cannabis. Many of these do form fruiting bodies and some are delicious. Some of these are basidiomycetes and ascomycetes species and many of these are the tasty gourmet mushrooms consumed by us humans (mostly basidiomycetes).

There are some current hypotheses that these species do pass nutrients to cannabis and vegetables. Some basidiomycetes are excellent degraders (saprotrophic) and thrive on organic matter topdressed in gardens. If you wish to increase fungal volume in your soil why not seed some species of edible mushrooms in addition to inoculating with endomycorrhizal spores? (rather than the efforts some go through to get the wrong microbes from forest soil)

Also I wanted to mention that the phytochemicals excreted by plants to prohibit other plant species and disease are a separate level from the nutrient garnering exudates. (to my knowledge thus far)
The ledgend MM! So i take it your no advocate of IMO? Would that sway at all with chris trump’s recomendation of collecting from areas where the tree coverage is 60-70%? Great thread by the way, I’ve got a clover/poppy cover crop mix im trying out with hopes i can get the poppies large enough to produce latex(plant fat) for my lacto and fungus’ to munch on.
 

Microbeman

The Logical Gardener
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Sure, I think gathering and propagation of indigenous microorganisms is a worthy practice. I just think thought should go into the location one is collecting them from in relation to the type of plants being cultivated. [wow first time I ever said 'think thought']

I suggest that collecting from an area like a grassland and weedland (especially annuals) will provide one with microorganisms more evolved and helpful to the cultivation of cannabis. This would probably be especially true if collecting/propagating species of indigenous endomycorrhizal fungi.

What if it was Donald Trump$ recommendation?

Run! Hey friend. I am truly sorry I did not make it to your farm. Recent life has made me face the harsh realities of my limitations and although I'll never say never, in all likelihood I am rooted at my present location. Perhaps in the near future you'd like to help me run a seminar....south of the border.
 
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