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Simpson oil solvent - 190 proof alcohol?

Relative to other solvents how good would 190 proof organic grape alcohol be for making Rick Simpson oil? I think it would be safer for the patient than isopropyl, but would it be as effective?
 
make it and take it. pick the way that works best for you. i have made refluxed and quick wash ethanol, isopropy and denaturedl extractions. it is the clean up that is critical to remove the solvent. do search posts by graywolf for procedures to remove the solvent from your oil. sounds like you have made your choice. rock on.
 

Gray Wolf

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190 proof made from grape would be a 95.5% azeotropic mixture and should work fine for extraction and refinement, but I would get an MSDS sheet on it. Doubly important if you are also using it for tinctures.

The basic principle behind using any solvent to extract with, is to remove it afterwards to safe and non detectable sensory levels.

If you are also planning to use it for tinctures however, you most certainly want to know what's in it, because of the higher remaining concentration.

Besides water, the 4.5% that isn't ethanol, could contain some methanol and ethyl acetate, depending on how they handled the heads on the refluxing still.

Methanol is a bi-product of pectin, which grapes are rich in, while 190 proof grain alcohol is distilled from beer, which is much lower in pectin's.

I would expect the MSDS to show low levels of both and what it does show should be kept in perspective, because any poison is always in the dosage. For instance, there is some methanol present in orange juice.

You might check out my QWET thread in the hash and resin forum, if you want to investigate further.
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zymos

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If it's food grade USP, it is probably going to have a lot less methanol than, say, wine.
I've purchased grain and cane, and the data sheets list <.001%. I'm willing to believe grape spirits could be higher- can't find a data sheet on it right now though.

And you aren't going to be drinking it, you are going to be evaporating it. I would always go with something food grade vs. something not made to be consumed at all (like isopropyl), all other factors being equal.
 
Good to know. Thank you. Here is a blurb from the producer I am looking at:

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Alchemical Solutions' 190 proof neutral organic grape alcohol is made from certified organic wine produced near Hopland California.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]"Grape sugars are unique, and because of their unique actions, grape alcohol does a superior job of extracting medicinal plant constituents. In addition, organic grape alcohol is hypo-allergenic and guaranteed 100% free of genetic modification." - Gail Edwards, Herbalist[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Our small scale, batch method of production allows us to maintain the utmost level of quality and attention to detail, while at the same time adhering to environmentally sound practices. Our Spirits are double distilled in stainless steel and double filtered to assure our customers the highest level of purity.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Our spirits are periodically tested by an independent lab to insure that they meet USP (United States Pharmacopeia) standards. Not all pure alcohol is pharmaceutical grade; only 190 proof and 200 proof pure ethanol, which meets or exceeds the stringent standards of the USP.[/FONT]
 

zymos

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We buy 5 gal. cubes of organic EtOH every now and then to make tinctures (not cannabis- well, 99% not cannabis). Sometimes we'll do fairly large orders and sell off extra to students from my wife's herb classes.

I bought some from them a couple years ago, and was swayed from pharmo aaper, our usual supplier, cause they seemed so much groovier. That was a mistake.

It was a subpar product- not at all a clean distillation. They had some sob story about equipment problems, and didn't even ship my order for a couple of weeks after they had my money. I should have returned it, but by then we really needed it, and I convinced myself it wasn't that bad. But it was pretty nasty.

They've probably fixed their issues by now, but they'll never get my business again.
 
We buy 5 gal. cubes of organic EtOH every now and then to make tinctures (not cannabis- well, 99% not cannabis). Sometimes we'll do fairly large orders and sell off extra to students from my wife's herb classes.

I bought some from them a couple years ago, and was swayed from pharmo aaper, our usual supplier, cause they seemed so much groovier. That was a mistake.

It was a subpar product- not at all a clean distillation. They had some sob story about equipment problems, and didn't even ship my order for a couple of weeks after they had my money. I should have returned it, but by then we really needed it, and I convinced myself it wasn't that bad. But it was pretty nasty.

They've probably fixed their issues by now, but they'll never get my business again.

That's this Alchemical Solutions place? That sucks. I wonder if there are any other producers.
 

zymos

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As I said (but mispelled) in my post above, Pharmco Aaper. They have a huge range of ethanols in various proofs, sources, organic or not, etc...
They are a bit of a pain to deal with at first- you'll have to set up an account. At times they have had minimum orders, or surcharges if you don't meet the minimum.

If Alchemical Solutions is still in business, they must have cleaned up their act by now...
 

Gray Wolf

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We buy 5 gal. cubes of organic EtOH every now and then to make tinctures (not cannabis- well, 99% not cannabis). Sometimes we'll do fairly large orders and sell off extra to students from my wife's herb classes.

I bought some from them a couple years ago, and was swayed from pharmo aaper, our usual supplier, cause they seemed so much groovier. That was a mistake.

It was a subpar product- not at all a clean distillation. They had some sob story about equipment problems, and didn't even ship my order for a couple of weeks after they had my money. I should have returned it, but by then we really needed it, and I convinced myself it wasn't that bad. But it was pretty nasty.

They've probably fixed their issues by now, but they'll never get my business again.

As ZM notes above, there is reason to proceed cautiously if you do consider using them as a source.

There are a couple of common ways to end up with bad taste and smell running a compound refluxing still, so it may not have been equipment failure, but their learning curve learning how to use it.

For sure it says that their quality assurance program sucked at the time, if it made it out the door. I am betting that they are a small start up company and as they clearly weren't ISO 9000 compliant, aren't ISO 9000 certified.

You might voice your concerns for your application and ask for a small sample for testing purposes before buying a drum of it. You can have it tested at a lab or test it yourself for taste and smell. A simple bulb hydrometer will tell you whether it is actually 190 proof.

There are a couple of ways to end up with bad taste and smell running a compound still. The first is to not discard enough of the heads.

The first thing coming off the top of a reflux column, is the lighter constitutes like methanol and ethyl acetate. They both taste and smell bad, so normally these are discarded until the stream from the top of the column taste and smell clean.

A second source is if they were cooking the mash too long to get the last little bit, so as to pick up taste and odor from the bottoms. Some bottoms are good when making whiskey or brandy, but not 190 proof distilled spirits.
 

m314

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I've used the quick wash ethanol method for making smokable oil or for making concentrated green dragon. The "quick wash" part is to avoid extracting some of the bad tasting compounds from the plant, from what I understand. If I want to make oil for oral consumption (mixed with coconut oil and put into gelcaps), wouldn't it be beneficial to have a longer extraction process? I used to let batches of green dragon sit in the closet for a month or more just to extract the most I can from the plant. The only downside is the awful taste, which wouldn't matter if it's inside a pill.

I've also made batches with 99% iso (quick wash for smoking or longer extraction for oil to be consumed). For someone making smaller batches, this is much cheaper than using 190 proof Everclear. I don't think there's anything dangerous about using 99% isopropanol as long as you remove all the solvent before consuming.
 
I've used the quick wash ethanol method for making smokable oil or for making concentrated green dragon. The "quick wash" part is to avoid extracting some of the bad tasting compounds from the plant, from what I understand. If I want to make oil for oral consumption (mixed with coconut oil and put into gelcaps), wouldn't it be beneficial to have a longer extraction process? I used to let batches of green dragon sit in the closet for a month or more just to extract the most I can from the plant. The only downside is the awful taste, which wouldn't matter if it's inside a pill.

I've also made batches with 99% iso (quick wash for smoking or longer extraction for oil to be consumed). For someone making smaller batches, this is much cheaper than using 190 proof Everclear. I don't think there's anything dangerous about using 99% isopropanol as long as you remove all the solvent before consuming.

still has the ill effects of chlorophyll overdose. set it in the sun while still dilute in solvent for uv degradation of chlorophyll.
 
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zymos

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Thanks Gray Wolf- I actually have a fair bit of experience with distillation (enough to want to farm out making 190 proof- that's pretty tedious- and spend my time with rum and whiskey).

Like I said, that was hopefully an isolated incident- production had been down for weeks, they were back ordered, they may have been pushing to hard for yield, etc...

I personally would not deal with them again cause I have some bad feelings, but it is hard to imagine they could be putting out noticeably bad product for 2-3 years and stay in business.

Bazarocka- those countertop distillers are notorious for having dubious plastics in the vapor path- I'd steer clear...
 
As I said (but mispelled) in my post above, Pharmco Aaper. They have a huge range of ethanols in various proofs, sources, organic or not, etc...
They are a bit of a pain to deal with at first- you'll have to set up an account. At times they have had minimum orders, or surcharges if you don't meet the minimum.

If Alchemical Solutions is still in business, they must have cleaned up their act by now...

Nice. I see they sell in 25L size - about six and a half gallons. The 200 Proof ethyl alcohol sounds good. Do you know about how much 25L of that runs?
 

zymos

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Nice. I see they sell in 25L size - about six and a half gallons. The 200 Proof ethyl alcohol sounds good. Do you know about how much 25L of that runs?

A shitload, I'm sure...


200 proof isn't worth the money for these purposes. EtOH absorbs H20 from the air every time it is exposed to the atmosphere, so under most conditions it won't stay 200 proof for long anyway.


Also, it is really hard to distill off that last couple of percent of water, so some processes actually add benzene to change the physical properties (although the benzene should all boil away during the distillation.

Sorry, went off on an alcohol dissertation-

-what can I say...? :blowbubbles:
 
A shitload, I'm sure...


200 proof isn't worth the money for these purposes. EtOH absorbs H20 from the air every time it is exposed to the atmosphere, so under most conditions it won't stay 200 proof for long anyway.


Also, it is really hard to distill off that last couple of percent of water, so some processes actually add benzene to change the physical properties (although the benzene should all boil away during the distillation.

Sorry, went off on an alcohol dissertation-

-what can I say...? :blowbubbles:

I was wondering if 200 was past the point of diminishing returns. I think organic 190 proof is what I want.
 

m314

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still has the ill effects of chlorophyll overdose. set it in the sun while still dilute in solvent for uv degradation of chlorophyll.

I've read this before, but I've never understood it. How could someone experience ill effects from ingesting chlorophyll? Does this only affect people with certain medical conditions? You'll get more chlorophyll in a spinach salad than you'd get in a gram of "green" oil from a long extraction in 190 proof ethanol. People buy and consume chlorophyll all the time as food coloring or as a dietary supplement with no ill effects. I'd expect a high chlorophyll oil to have more health benefits than oil with the chlorophyll removed or broken down by UV light.

http://www.google.com/search?q=chlorophyll+supplement

The final product from a longer extraction has a stronger taste than from a quick wash, but I wouldn't care about taste if I was making oil capsules.
 

m314

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200 proof isn't worth the money for these purposes. EtOH absorbs H20 from the air every time it is exposed to the atmosphere, so under most conditions it won't stay 200 proof for long anyway.

Do you know why 200 proof ethanol is so expensive relative to 99+% isopropanol? Is the isopropanol distillation process just easier at producing a pure product than with ethanol? Does the 99% iso absorb water vapor every time it's exposed to the air too? Sorry for all the questions; I just need to get a better understanding of how this works if I'm going to be making large batches of oil.
 

zymos

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ANY food grade ethanol is expensive relative to iso because most of what you are paying for is Federal Excise Tax- more than for the alcohol itself. It is hard to justify paying the $$ for organic food grade ethanol (or even nonorganic) when you are just going to evaporate it any way.
It is a more sustainable product though- there aren't any certified organic mom+pop isopryl distiileries!


The issues in producing 200 proof EtOH are still there when making isopropyl. The alcohols and water form an azeotrope, and the remaining water cannot be separated by distillation without adding other chemicals.

Iso is also hygroscopic (absorbs water from the air), but I think less so than ethanol.
 

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