RDWC/DWC Slime..Is it actually bacteria?

DWC Slime 250X magnification after erythromicin treatment


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKpnVVYQpv8


Organisms in DWC Slime 100X magnigication


https://youtu.be/GF5F8IfiNb0




Disclaimer: There are a multitude of micro-organisms existing in water culture. One system's issues may not be another's despite similar symptoms.

So saying that, has anyone here ever looked at clear slime build up under a microscope?

I have been playing around with a RDWC setup and a clear white slime consistently appears around the plant roots. Growth stalls and then infection sets in.

Parameters

Air 80F Day/65 Night
Humidity 70%
58 F Water temps
No light leaks
Oxygen enriched to 150-200% (16-25 mg/l approx)
0.2 EC (Jacks 3-2-1) + 1 ml p/gallon Potassium Silicate
Ozone ORP control (350-400 MV)
Hydroguard (1 ml p/gallon) (Bacillus species have a known oxidizer resistance)
Mycostop (Label rates)

Symptoms

Ph drops when slime begins to take hold. Ran system without plants for 24 hours. PH climbed slowly. Introduced plants. PH dropped from 6.2 to 5.6 in 12 hours. No EC change.

Foam coming from return inlet and in reservoir. No foam before introducing plants.

Slow/nonexistent growth. Clear slime visible adhering to plant roots.

Small numbers of micro-organism isolated from inside plant xylem/phloem up to 3 inches above roots and above water line.

Ineffective Treatments:

These observations are from viewing the micro-organisms under a microscope following treatment.

System disinfection without plants with ozone at >3 mg/l for 24 hours (1000+ ORP). >90% kill rate.

System disinfection with plants with ozone at 2 mg/l for 4 hours (900 ORP) >75% kill rate

System disinfection without plants, Chlorine at 8 mg/l in pure water. 0% Kill rate.

System disinfection with plants, Chlorine at 4 mg/l in 0.2 EC nutrient solution. 0% Kill rate (Increase in pathogen growth observed)

Heisenberg Tea. No effect.

Chlorine dioxide at 2 mg/l without plants for 24 hours. 75% kill rate.

Chlorine dioxide at 0.2 mg/l for 24 hours with plants. 0% kill rate. (Increase in pathogen growth observed). Plant damage observed.

Zerotol 2.0 at 1/1000 dilution. <50% kill rate. Plant damage observed.

Abacetamin 1 PPM. (Not a true systemic and not absorbed by roots, used as an anti parasite for root nematode/parasites. Is transliminar and is able to locally penetrate plant tissue) 1 PPM. Increase in pathogen growth observed.

Abacetamin 10 PPM <50% kill rate. Plant damage observed.

Abacetamin 100 PPM <90% kill rate. 100% plant mortality.

Abacetamin 1000 PPM 100% kill rate.

Amoxicillin 10000+ PPM. (Anti bacterial fish medication) Note. These plants are for research purposes only. They will not be used for flowering. 0% Kill rate. Increase in pathogen growth observed. No plant damage.

So I've read many of the slime topics on here and other forums. Heisenberg tea has had good reviews. For some however it was ineffective, myself among them. Some people have reported chlorine/peroxyacetic acid/hydrogen peroxide etc resistance.

With being able to identify that it is not a bacteria under the microscope, as well as these organisms resistance to high levels of sterilization that should kill most ordinary bacteria, it seems some of us may have been targeting the wrong pathogen/parasite. Protozoa have a known chlorine resistance, thriving in 50 mg/l active chlorine for 24+ hours. They also create a biofilm which protects the organism and helps it to spread.

The aquaculture industry has major problems with protozoan parasites on fish. Cryptocaryans irritans for one. This protozoa creates a clear slime which suffocates the fish. It is my belief that alot of the slime in water culture is caused by something similar.

Quinine sulphate (the anti malarial drug) is the recommended treatment for food safe aquaculture treatment. Chloroqhine phospate is almost identical to quinine according to the experts i spoke to and is now the recommended treatment. It is also purported to be plant safe and non systemic same as quinine. I will be receiving it on Friday and will be testing different concentrations. Here is an research paper on its efficacy against protozoa.

https://www.int-res.com/articles/dao2011/94/d094p167.pdf

Just thought I would share the information in case it helps someone else out there, even if its advising what was not effective.

Look up Richie riches tea to rid slime

I've run DWC for 15+ years, while dabbling in other methods of hydro. I'm not a fan of holding nutrient solution in setups with lots of corners and surfaces, I prefer large tubs and few parts.

That being said, I've run DWC for years without having to run a sterile res or use products of one sort or another. What do I believe to be one of the key reasons for success? I don't use biological products in my reservoirs. My reservoirs stay clean, and the only 'changeout' I do is 5 days before harvest.

I would strongly recommend a strong bleach cleaning of the whole system, and then mixing a new res without the biologicals. Give it a shot and you may be surprised. It wouldn't be the first time trouble came in a product designed to prevent it.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=282319

Hydro tea

Not sure what it is ? I usually call it The Slime

I have had the clear slime on a couple of my younger plants, usually when I have older vinyl hoses or parts in the system. I give the roots hair cuts and they have always came back uninfected. Once the plants were bigger and more established the slime was not able to effect them.

I have tried diluted bleach solution but every time I had the slime it was coming from an unclean part so it would just keep coming back until the plants got big and strong.

I appreciate the feedback! Here's the thing, even on the first few pages of Richy Rich's thread and Heisenbergs and many other's you will see people who these measures had no effect. Myself among them. It laughs at Physan 20. Ozone is one of the most effective sterilizers on the planet and it only knocks it back at doses lethal to plants (and humans over time for that matter.) Tried all the beneficials. Snype and doneit were in the same boat.



Snype solved his problem with erythromicin after trying everything. A fish anti bacterial antibiotic. But it did not work for some others. There are many parasites and pathogens out there and its doubtful we all have the same but for certain some of us do and many more have similar. The reason why I posted the microscope videos is to question whether bacteria are the cause, as those are not bacteria, they are amoeba/protozoa. Some do respond to bacterial treatments, many do not. If what anyone is doing is working for them then by all means they should continue. But when it stops working or simply doesn't I feel like some more in depth research is necessary.

After speaking to several labs they are of the opinion Chloroquine (Quinine) is definitely the right treatment for this form of problem, the question is will any plant damage occur. There is however a possibility that the problem IS bacterial, and these protozoa are simply predating on the bacterial formation. I also have some erthyromicin arriving today. I have tons of cultures in small jars with plant roots, these things explode in population after being left for 24 hours in stagnant solution with a food source.



I'll be testing the erthyromicin and chloroquine at different doses in vivo on growing plants and in vitro in the cultures, and will see the effects under a microscope. All the above measures, chlorine, chlorine dioxide, ozone, tea etc had marginal to no effect in doses safe for plants. I'm not a scientist and I learn more every day but I have managed over 11 hectares of tomato greenhouses in the Netherlands as well as marijuana facilities for 15 years, and I like knowing my enemy especially when its a real problematic one.



These tests are on a small scale. However large facilities with 500,000 gallon holding tanks can't dose Physan 20 cost effectively, even if it was effective. Same goes with tea. Ozone is a wonderful and cost effective sterilizer as long as you ensure adequate residuals due to its half life in water, has zero residue and can be generated on site, but it dosen't get everything apparently. Anything I do has to be able to be replicated on an commercial ag scale or it's somewhat pointless which is why a scatter gun approach isn't an option, although I have tried them anyway, and something precise, cost effective and quantifiable is necessary.

I finally got a look at them under 250X magnification. They are 100% not bacteria and are a flagellate protozoa. There are multiple protozoan pathogens which have been found on tomatoes and similar crops. They also can invade the phloem which is consistent with what I observed. I can also see them attached to the roots. Unfortunately I cant take a video it works with 100X but 250X magnification throws the optics off apparently.

Keep at it. I suspect you'll have the same problems with the tea others had, since your tests came up with negative results for amoxicillin. That being said, if the tea does work it's something you can definitely do commercial scale. Hoping the erythromicin works for you.

On the note of commercial scale, RDWC is definitely not what I would recommend. Though my experiences are with small gardens, I've spent quite a bit of time in many commercial operations. Cannabis is no different. In any commercial situation you want simplicity and reliability as core components. So many cracks and crevices in RDWC, I personally would not consider it an efficient option. Not from an economical or time/resource-management point of view.

I completely agree Douglas. That is what has kept me away from RDWC for a long time. If something goes wrong it goes wrong in a hurry and on a large scale that can be devastating. One pump or equipment failure and millions of dollars are gone and nobody wants to be responsible for that, and that's without all the water culture pathogen problems. Saying that the cost of medium be it soil or rockwool or perlite etc, along with transportation, installation, disposal costs is a significant recurring expense. In today's competitive environment where the margins are so much slimmer you have to look at efficiency first and foremost. Recently I've been working on a system with alot of redundancy built in which is all automated and can be mass produced at 1/5 of the cost of these current culture etc setups. I have just been playing around with it at my house on a small scale and it works flawlessly, i get a text any time a parameter such as water temperature or ec is out of range and a secondary system has already automatically kicked in. I can't really test performance however with this pathogen/parasite in the mix so working on removing that first

Fascinating and I can't wait to hear more.


With the dedication you're showing, I know you're going to figure it out.

DWC "Slime"



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKpnVVYQpv8



Edited for incorrect information.

After 24 hours of 5 mg/l erythromicin no effect on the Protozoa/amoeba population. Slime still there. One plant did start growing overnight. (10% weight increase (roots and shoots/leaves, I weigh the plants daily on a digital scale). One plant did not. The slime still does remain. One plant will get the full 4 day treatment of erythromycin, the other currently has the ozone running to maintain 400 orp for 24 hours which should remove and residual erythromicin. That one will get the chloroquine treatment along with several cultures. My initial video also had an incorrect description stating what you could see was the "slime" under a microscope. Turns out those are the protozoa/amoeba around the roots with the slime. I took a video of the actual slime at 250 X magnification. Sorry for the video quality its hard to get a good shot at 250X. Apparently the actual inanimate slime is some kind of protein mass,which they also get in fish tanks. If you zoom in you can see those orbs full of cells inside. Still lots of foaming, maybe even more so, along with the slime still there. Will carry on updating.

http://science.jrank.org/pages/5547/Protista-Slime-molds-water-molds.html


The fungus-like protists resemble the fungi during some part of their life cycle. These organisms exhibit properties of both fungi and protists. The slime molds and the water molds are members of this group. They all obtain energy by decomposing organic materials, and as a result, are important for recycling nutrients. They can be brightly colored and live in cool, moist, dark habitats. The slime molds are classified as either plasmodial or cellular by their modes of reproduction. The plasmodial slime molds belong to the phylum Myxomycota, and the cellular slime molds belong to the phylum Acrasiomycota.
The plasmodial slime molds form a structure called a plasmodium, a mass of cytoplasm that contains many nuclei but has no cell walls or membranes to separate individual cells. The plasmodium is the feeding stage of the slime mold. It moves much like an amoeba, slowly sneaking along decaying organic material. It moves at a rate of 1 in (2.5 cm) per hour, engulfing microorganisms. The reproductive structure of plasmodial slime molds occurs when the plasmodium forms a stalked structure during unfavorable conditions. This structure produces spores that can be released and travel large distances. The spores land and produce a zygote that grows into a new plasmodium.
The cellular slime molds exist as individual cells during the feeding stage. These cells can move like an amoeba as well, engulfing food along the way. The feeding cells reproduce asexually through cell division. When conditions become unfavorable, the cells come together to form a large mass of cells resembling a plasmodium. This mass of cells can move as one organism and looks much like a garden slug. The mass eventually develops into a stalked structure capable of sexual reproduction.
The water molds and downy mildews belong to the phylum Oomycota. They grow on the surface of dead organisms or plants, decomposing the organic material and absorbing nutrients. Most live in water or in moist areas. Water molds grow as a mass of fuzzy white threads on dead material. The difference between these organisms and true fungi is the water molds form flagellated reproductive cells during their life cycles.

Well I have some preliminary results.


Erythromicin had minimal to zero effect on the microbes creating the slime. Neither did amoxicillin. Both broad spectrum antibacterial antibiotics. I observed this in small cultures as well as on growing plants. One test plant got a single dose of erythromicin. 5 mg/l. No effect. Recommended treatment is 5 mg/l dosed every 24 hours for 4 days, with partial water changes. I skipped the water changes on the second plant and followed this protocol to see if high doses would have an positive impact.


Slime remained and plant showed signs of phytotoxicity on the 3rd day. 20 mg/l of erythromicin had no effect on the slime population but did negatively impact plant health.



Here is where it gets interesting. One plant was dosed at label rates with chloroquine phospate. I have to check the mg/l dosage. Single application. Plant doubled in weight overnight. Slime gone. No signs of the protozoa. Chloroquine phospate acts on parasites/protozoa. It has minimal action against fungi or bacteria. I also observed the ORP (which is a good indicator of amount of biological life inside the solution) climb from 230 ORP to 340, and hold steady for 24 hours and counting. That did not occur with the erythromicin, there was a steady drop after an initial climb. There is so little research on protozoa as plant parasites even though there are many references and accounts of them being. But so far this has been a pretty interesting experiment for me.

Next update, I ran another test on the plant that had doubled in size overnight after being dosed with chloroquine phospate. I could not find any protozoa or similar on the roots. Overnight I created a microbe tea with OG biowar etc, the initial water was sterilized then bubbled overnight at 80F at 200% oxygen saturation.I purposefully omitted EWC or similar due to contamination concerns. Hydroguard, Mycostop, OGBiowar and Armory. Microbes everywhere, ORP dropper from 250 to -400 there was so much biological life. None of the protozoa/amoeba's that I have observed at the end of brew time. The air being fed in was routed through a hepa filter so no outside contamination. I placed that plant inside that mix. Non diluted microbe tea so 100X strength at least. Within an hour roots were brown and protozoa everywhere, more than i have ever seen. They were not there prior to placing the plant in there. I am assuming that there were still some remaining on the roots, and they exploded in population despite the microbial tea. It was my intention to see if I knocked the population substantially back if microbes would handle the rest. Obviously not the case. These are resilient little bastards.



I have observed this effect in the past. Microbe tea doing more harm than good with this parasite/pathogen. Same with chitosan applied preventatively and curatively. I am beginning to think these are in the oomycete class, of which pythium and phytopthora are members. Oomycete's do not have chitin as part of their cell walls which would explain the lack of effect as well. In fact chitosan has been shown to increase pythium/oomycete populations



https://books.google.com/books?id=A...ECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=laminarin pythium&f=false



I think I can safely rule pythium out as the levels of sterilization I have tested it against would have eradicated pythium spores 5X over. Phytopthora is a maybe. Now that microbe tea has been ruled out I got some other tests of products specifically targeting oocymetes. The goal is to get this 100% organic control or at the very least zero residuals so no antibiotics etc, but testing with these things helps narrow it down.

Those fast moving organisms in the 2nd video look like ciliates which are very common.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML6sCOcv9M8

Awesome information, thank you.
Do try the straight EWC tea and other recommended teas, though I'm pretty sure they're going to fail as well. Amazing effect from the chloroquine phosphate, at what dosage does it begin affecting the plant?[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
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Hey Douglas, I am not sure at what dosage phytotoxicity occurs with chloroquine phosphate, 20 mg/l is the recommended dose and I tested one plant up to 60 mg/l with no ill effects. I am going to have to go back and test this antibiotic some more. I immediately moved on to more tests and threw away those plants to make room for testing against oocymetes as I do not want to use antibiotics for a consumable product for obvious reasons. What does worry me is that I did find some similar organisms in several cultures with chloroquine phosphate the next day. I am unsure if they made a rebound or those were a different organism. I'll have to go back at some point and test.



I have ruled out oocymetes as of today, subdue max had zero effect on them and etridiazole only made a small dent but that acts on everything to some degree. But if it was a oocymete pathogen either of those would have knocked them down real quick.



I haven't tested a EWC tea this time around. However I have in the past for this specific issue. Honestly it made things worse. There is still the option that this problem is bacterial, and those protozoa be they flagelattes or ciliates, and I am seeing both, are simply grazing on the bacterial population and are harmless to mildly beneficial which is really the most likely scenario here. Its very possible the addition of the molasses just acted as a catalyst for a bacterial explosion when applied. I am testing a few cultures with trichoderma harzanium/viride, another with bacillus species, another with a streptomyces lydicus/griseus in super high concentrations to see what takes a dent out of them. Just a visual observation as its only been a few hours, i cant see any slime on the trichoderma cultures at all, but the bacillus cultures there is far far more then before the baciullus was added, streptomyces looks about the same. This is in extremely high concentrations, about 1 g per 20 ml. Also testing chlorine/copper combinations (like the old dutchmaster zone), as well as ozone at 550-600 ORP (0.1 mg/l ozone) on a flood and drain to see if that performs better than 400 ORP in DWC, etc.

So after 4 hours, trichoderma harzanium/viride wiped everything out. Bacillus subtillus/amyloliquefaciens did not. This was in super high concentrations (approx 1 g per 20 ml).


I don't think its reaching to draw a few conclusions.


Every research paper I've ran across says that protozoa and trichoderma have minimal impact on eachother. Trichoderma attacks oocymetes, but if they were oocymetes Subdue and Etridiazole would have had a noticeable effect on the population, they did not. If those organisms in the video were beneficial, trichoderma wiped out their food supply (bacteria and fungi), as they are gone. If those protozoa organisms were pathogenic, trichoderma should not really have done much, as there were still plant roots as a food source in the solution. Chlorquine can act as a bactericide and its possible it targeted whatever bacteria is responsible for this and amoxicillin and erythromicin did not. Evidence does seems to point to a bacterial issue which is pretty much the assumption on the topics in this forum.



Anyways lots more tests to run

Cool studies FRANKIE1579 !

One of my first thoughts on bacteria, fungi, mold, and antibiotics is how long before they morph into a strain(type ?)that is immune to that particular antibiotic

Yep that's a huge concern with antibiotics and 90% of pesticides/fungicides. Most have resistant strains already. Only reason I was testing antibiotics was to narrow down the problem, as well as explore the possibility of using it as a disinfectant for the system after harvest (IE, run the system for 1 day with antibiotic, then run ozone to eliminate the residual, you get a one two punch with zero residue). I am excited about the trichoderma. Root shield is expensive for the amounts I used which was overkill but I'm certain less would be required which I will be testing shortly, and its easily bred in mass quantities anyway so that shouldn't be an issue.