The Lounge : Growers Round Table Discussion Thread

For the current mix in use, I need to get some Super Triple Phosphate, or similar; something with straight P in notable amount.

For the mix recommendation you posted below, Jidoka, would I continue with the same/similar aerating amendments I'm using?

The Nectar of the Gods Liquid Bone meal is something I'm not familiar with. I think I understand what it is based on its name.

Nixing the Kelp Meal & Fishy Peat will help in reducing the salts. (mixed feelings as I've used raw dried kelp meal religiously for ~24 -25 years now).

At what limit does the sulfur in the gypsum become an issue? (*The various gypsum sources I now have here are carrying a large sulfur component; 16% sulfur in the one variety of garden gypsum I picked up in town this evening.

I'd have to check the sulfur content on the prilled gypsum (*Gypril), but hesitated using it in today's top-dressing of the existing plants/mix, due to the prilled status, and wanting something faster. Still ended up using it in stronger concentrations in top-dressing, as it was what I had at the time. Considered putting it through my wife's larger mortar and pestle, but figured marital harmony trumped quicker gypsum.

I've used ag sulfur here in our outdoor garden due to lots of well-watering over time with what was confirmed years ago to be 95 ppm Calcium Carb back then in the well water, to adjust the soil ph in our veggie raised beds downward every several years or slightly less. I've seen some veggies (i.e. broccoli) seemingly disregard stout doses of sulfur, while others were offended fairly quickly by those same levels.

Thanks again. I did read this post earlier, needed to re-read it, and it seemed to make a good effort at maintaining the theme I've tried to stick with, while simplifying things, and creating a reliable mix.

With the higher dose of prilled gypsum in top-dressing earlier this evening, I included a fairly stout amount of 0-13-0 Madagascan bat guano; a newer source of guano here that I haven't played with previously.

The plants look appreciative of the guano/watering in (fairly fine particulate BG), but I suspect the prilled gypsum is a ways from becoming seriously active.

I may take several key (but suspect) amendments, and fork out the $ for testing.

jidoka said:

Your dilemma is this. To get the Ca you chose into the plant you need to let that soil dry out. But as you do that the Na will become more of a problem.

You could get soluble gypsum and water it in. Or you could get Ca directly into the plant with Foliar Albion, biomin or baicor

You could also spray foliage k to try to block uptake of Ana

In the long run you have got to focus getting more highly soluble sources of Ca and P in the mix. The carbonate sources of Ca are gonna be almost unavailable in a single cycle. And you won’t have time to build a fungal network to free up P

Just to understand the concept I would recommend buying a bale of Promix or Sunshine Mix 4. Chuck in 6 lbs of gypsum and 6 lbs of steamed bone meal (I would also get some nectar for the gods liquid bone meal to feed along the way).

If you are in then we can choose the fertilizer part where we can introduce that diversity thing if you want. It will be a 1-2-1 or even 1-3-1 thing imo

Anyways my opinion

Then once you see the basics you can change things up while sticking to the ratios

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Don't know if I should continue posting any progress here or not, but aside from the top-dressing of the Gypril and 0-13-0 BG, I gave a foliar feeding of .7 ml/qt of Pro-tekt and .7 ml/qt. Thrive Alive green label primarily for the scant amounts of K.

I'll be giving a fairly stout dose of Yucca Extract the next watering as a part of the salt-leaching process.

It occurred to me that in the veggie garden arsenal is a large quantity of Alaska 0-10-10 Mor'Bloom, and while waiting for the other amendments to arrive that I've sourced, knowing that P is also somewhat inadequate, a gentle foliar spray of this in a day or so seems right.

I've sourced some:

RAW soluble 0-0-50 for a seriously diluted foliar, if still necessary,

a bottle of Nectar for the Gods Herculean Harvest Liquid Bone meal for the proposed alternative organic or nearly-organic mix mentioned earlier,

some Triple Super Phosphate 0-45-0 to use in very diluted/minimal amount in soil drench or foliar,

and some biomin for faster acting/more available calcium for former mothers, rooted clones, current mothers, and future application if necessary in general.

The rooted clones now well into vegetative phase, are looking a bit more green now, and they're growing, though I'd like to see an increase in vigor.

I may be able to get assistance posting a couple pics on Sunday. We'll see.

As far as the proposed alternative mix of 6 lb. Gypsum, 6 lb.Bone Meal, Bale BX Pro Mix, and perhaps liquid bone meal, I have all of that here but the LBM, and any yet unidentified listing of alternative organics and micro nutes.

edit: the flowering former mothers are showing a marginal amount of darker green = to wanting more P. Just gave a foliar of 4 ml/qt of 0-10-10 to everything, all inclusive.

Tres dawg x face off og by a CO breeder. Every bit as fuely as tk x sfv. Huge yielder. Me love this one long time

@jidoka God damn I almost broke my neck. That's fucking nuts yo

What does the interior buds on those plants look like come end of season? Do you remove any foliage during the season?


M.E. - So much info to digest. Before going over it all I still stick by my previous thoughts that your mix needs recycling. Figure out the Na which is most likely from the kelp and then recycle until the cows come home. I threw out a P ppm number in our conversations that was very high...your testing shows why that number isn't so ridiculous.


Just ordered some bales of coco... Coco DTW, DWC and soil... Can I run them all on nearly the same nutrition and do well?

Thanks for the input, gc.

I'm skeptical of the Na coming strictly from the kelp meal, as it's in such limited supply in contrast to the overall mix.

I'm wondering about salts and the wild cards recently added, to include, especially, the rice hulls & Fishy Peat. (*I know others who've obtained the heated/neutralized hulls, but mine are fertile/untreated, and regularly produce young rice plants; I may just pop a bit in my mouth, and see if there's a sense of saltiness to them).

Other suspects include the new fish meals that are replacing the older fish meal. No idea of their processing, etc., and what we call whitefish here (the old, obsolete Local <??> source) is a fresh water fish. The new stuff? No clue. Need to read more on the sources.

I noted the excess K in the numbers, and slightly excessive N, and have tried to adjust that without decimating it, lowering the N & K, and upping the P a fair bit. I've also cut back on the boron by ~1/3 of the total, to .5 grams instead of .7, and very mildly reduced the manganese.

Currently the vigor and length of pistils are the primary indicators for me w/the former-mothers-in-bloom that they're not optimal. The distance between bud sites tells me they're getting K. And the slightly darker green this A.M. led me toward what we know of the P #s in the report. Confirmation of sorts. But they're far from looking badly injured at the moment.

I've been invited by the middle person in the testing chain to submit tissue samples. Still scratching my chin on that.

I didn't hear back re. what is regarded as cautionary or toxic levels of sulfur for cannabis. I may try to find that tonight; slow connection and web pages willing.

I don't have room to do a full bale of LED05's or Jidoka's proposed basic mixes with either a balanced local complete organic fert (NPK inclusive) or gypsum and bone meal base, but could run something like that in a 1/3 bale or 1/2 bale aggregate in parallel to the now-being-modified mix... maybe.

All totaled, the mix I have now, with suspect numbers attached to it, sat for maybe 3.5 weeks on average before getting plugged into -some- of its current application. Some were planted earlier than that. More stackable heavy-duty totes will be in order for me to age mixes for a 6-week period before implementing them.

Also, I failed to mention the use of EM-1 in the hydration schedules.

I flushed the Goji OG vegetative plants with Yucca Extract this afternoon. They didn't seem to object much.

With the foliar sprays that have been administered, and the less than ideal source of gypsum, along with some new ^P BG (purported to be 0-13-0), the only plant in bloom currently showing distinct reaction to N or salts is the SLH, with very mild 'ram's horning' going on near the top. She's always been sensitive to ^N, and salts.

With vegging Goji OG X's 2 phenos ready to change into larger pots, I'm going to have to make a mostly educated move, and that'll likely involve reviewing the numbers I have, making calculated adjustments, and heading into it, augmenting slower release components with fertilizers applied in drench or foliar, early on, to compensate for what's not available right now. This mix will have less time to sit than the previous.

Juggling the sources of calcium to nix the oyster shell flour, while upping the garden lime & gypsum, knowing the GL is more concentrated than the OSF, and using basic garden gypsum now; not fast-acting or Gypril. But a bit concerned about sulfur levels, as stated; 16% with already-elevated #s..

One way or another, the plants in question will go through a bloom cycle.

Hope all's well with you & yours.. Take care.

growingcrazy said:

What does the interior buds on those plants look like come end of season? Do you remove any foliage during the season?

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Not good. Bottom line I am a lazy fucker that gets all itchy cleaning out plants. So I do damn little of it. Just drop most of it in place with some sugar over the winter...give me back those immobile elements

The good that comes from lazy is that the greener that stuff stays the more sugar and fatty acids I have in the plant...the healthier the plant is

I grow my own stuff way more by feel than other people’s where I get all ocd on data. It balances me out some

One of these shows how these inner leaves fade. Not too worried when they do it like this

The other shows a K def during stretch. That worries me. I just left some yield on the table. Whole lotta foliar goin on here

jidoka said:

View attachment 466984

View attachment 466985

One of these shows how these inner leaves fade. Not too worried when they do it like this

The other shows a K def during stretch. That worries me. I just left some yield on the table. Whole lotta foliar goin on here

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I'm trying to learn to read the leaves. Is it the mottled green of the veins you see for K def?

Tip burn all down the side of the leaf. Most likely Na replacing K. The darker leaf

The other one fading from not enough light—> no chlorophyll

Hey Guys
In listening to the John Kempf podcast on veg and reproduction nutrients he says he sprays a mix of manganese and P to kick off flowering. Any suggestions on a mix?

jidoka said:

Tip burn all down the side of the leaf. Most likely Na replacing K. The darker leaf

The other one fading from not enough light—> no chlorophyll

Click to expand...

Thanks

I have one pheno of a longbottom leaf cross that always has that

sawtooth edge sticking up with white tips too. I had been adding microblast to it with no good luck. looks like she just wants more K
Thanks You Rock

Caught up with this thread last night, interesting.
I'm down to virtually no castings/compost now.. and man this peat sure is dry.
Can't find npk for yucca, but I imagine it brings the K.
Any surfactant recommendations?? Thanks

The Yucca used is 10% solution, diluted to 2+ tsp per gallon of water, with slightly more H2O and yucca solution used for hydrating than a standard watering, as it is (from my understanding) used to neutralize salts in controlled marginal leaching several times through growth.

I also haven't been able to find any K info or other NPK values re. the Yucca, but have used it 2-3 times per crop, total, including veg to bloom, for probably a bit over 10 years now..

This A.M. a couple of the former-mothers-in-bloom are showing the N def. down low that would typically/sometimes be associated with a K-generated lock-out.

For that reason alone, the next foliar spray (specifically for the blooming moms) will likely go to a Dyna-Grow Bloom, or even perhaps a Dyna-Grow Grow/Veg.

In that the plants seem to indicate they're getting K, I'll lean toward a more balanced foliar, with the gradual leaching to continue in drench.

'New ground' without a hard-core map has often resulted in some amount of feeling like I'm shooting in the dark; at this point, I can't unplant them. So... Onward... ;^>)


At the moment, the vegging plants (Goji OG of 2 phenos) are drying to the point of watering in just over 2 days' time. The mothers in bloom are taking about 2.5 to 2.75 days to need re-watering.

The GTH#1 that were moved to Classic 2000's last week and will go to 12:12 on next Tuesday, are still finding home for roots, and are good for about 4+ days before needing re-watered.

The New Moms in 5"x5"x6.5" pots, under four 4' LED conversion bulbs at 4200K, are running about 3-3.5 days between watering.

They are all in the same mix, and have all received the gypsum and ^P 0-13-0 BG in top-dressing.

Thanks for the post!!

There's some potassium in yucca but doesn't speak to yucca extract- or who or how the extraction is done. I think the amount is negligible and really shouldn't play with your ec or ppm. Been playing with it for years and it's never unbalanced anything.

bsgospel said:

There's some potassium in yucca but doesn't speak to yucca extract- or who or how the extraction is done. I think the amount is negligible and really shouldn't play with your ec or ppm. Been playing with it for years and it's never unbalanced anything.

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Thanks. I'm learning stuff at each step here. Hopefully I can remember 10% of it.

I'd add for sake of contemplation, that a minor jolt of this or that, in a relatively balanced mix, takes on limited meaning, but in a mix that's already involved in some degree of chaos, I wonder if it might be more impactful?

But yes, I've never seen negative consequences from its use, that I could identify as such..

question for slow

question for slow

slownickel - first thanks for taking the time to help everyone.

here is the thing i dont understand yet.

this question pertains to mineral field soils only.

when do you switch from ca 8.2 to mehlich ca? it seems like ca 8.2 always above ph 7. but 6.9, 6.8, 6.7, 6.6, 6.5, 6.0, 5.0 etc

at what pH do you use the mehlich ca number? or never?

thanks

cannabisforjoe said:

slownickel - first thanks for taking the time to help everyone.

here is the thing i dont understand yet.

this question pertains to mineral field soils only.

when do you switch from ca 8.2 to mehlich ca? it seems like ca 8.2 always above ph 7. but 6.9, 6.8, 6.7, 6.6, 6.5, 6.0, 5.0 etc

at what pH do you use the mehlich ca number? or never?

thanks

Click to expand...

In field agriculture, the pH rule holds pretty true. But in a medium, the pH has little to do with all the stuff you all mix into a mix.

Normally in field agriculture, the pH is established by the "age" or how much rainfall the soil has had. The dryer it is, the higher the pH usually as the majority of Ca has not washed away.

However, when you have a media mix, that is a BRAND NEW soil/medium. Meaning that the dolomite, carbonate, seashells, lobster lips, whatever, are not digested by time and rain.

This is why I have adopted to ALWAYS use this additional procedure unless I am in a soil and I know that it is a worn soil.

About a year ago I was invited to visit a large asparagus and melon grower in Guatemala, in the Zacapa valley. Worked in that same valley more than 25 years ago and quite successfully. This time however, I saw those soils in a different way. I immediately saw calcium carbonate rocks, never paid any attention to them before. Now they are the first thing I see.

I never paid attention back then to water quality either, now I see that the water source there is nearly toxic with bicarbonates. Yet, no one pays attention?

Why? Experience. Having assisted in more than 24 countries and counting, I realized that there is still a lot to learn!

The results of my recommendations in the Zacapa valley have changed how they farm. Yields have more than doubled in their asparagus fields! I would have gotten a good response 20+ years ago, but now, more than doubling up!

I guess what I am trying to tell you, error on the side of being too inquisitive. Always run experiments! They are a pain in the ass to do, but are really the only way to confirm or negate a hypothesis/concept in agriculture.

Hope I answered your question.

I can't test every suspect amendment or base aggregate. Not enough time or money right now, and too many plants pushing for changes of one sort or another.

So I've identified those I want to, or can, discard in the base and amendments, and am going to rinse/soak the kelp meal thoroughly, while decreasing it slightly, and doing the same to a reduced amount of rice hulls; both of which are currently suspects in the ^ Na.

This will only deal with loose salts that are more easily washed out.

Upping the gypsum, and nixing the Oyster Shell Flour, while slightly increasing the garden lime (@ 96% calcium and 1.5% magnesium)

The Fishy Peat is going away for now re. the adjusted mix, though I know others who've used it with moderate success in very simple mixes, run outdoors.

The current goal, facilitated with a calculator, and acknowledging that some of my sources of P have 'not delivered as advertised,' is to increase the P with more conventional sources (increasing Steamed Bone Meal by at least a 1/2 cup and replacing the 3-way guano mix with a 1/2-cup each of 2 stout P guanos), slightly to moderately decrease N, and moderately or more decrease K.

I have no time to test, as that would take at least 10-12 days on average to get e-mailed results, and I simply don't have that, and am somewhat backed into a corner.

I can ph here fairly accurately. The rest I will get done through testing, but the results will follow the activity, as opposed to the more desirable opposite sequence of events.

To which I mutter to myself, "Oh well."

There's also a quick and dirty mix a person shared with me some time ago, who has acquired clones from me for a good while; she states (loosely, as she's not -certain- of her measurements/proportions) that she uses ~1/3 Ocean Forest, ~1/3 perlite, & ~1/3 Fishy Peat (though as stated earlier some where in here, it's been alleged but not yet proven to me that Fishy Peat has notable variance in Quality Control).

She's typically fertilized this mix with Grow Big (6-4-4) and Big Bloom (Fox Farm's 'organic' extract that's a bit higher in K than P and N, descending in presence in that order). I don't know that she's adding any lime products.. I don't believe she has. Making me a bit suspicious, unless there's sufficient amounts in the OF.

So I'm rolling the dice. You may hear loud sobbing coming from the NW, or laughter over the next couple weeks.

Meanwhile I'll do a small set on the side of BX Pro-Mix, with a ready-made organic, all-inclusive balanced mix that replicates a 1-2-1 ratio, or close, and lime it accordingly.

About that rabbit from a hat.....

Slow...so let’s say I got some straight spag peat with a ph of 4. I chuck some lobster lips (or Ca carbonate) in there. Pretty quickly the ph rises. It’s why promix uses dolomite, to buffer the ph to around 6.

Does that work only because the ph is so low to start with? I cannot figure out any other reason. It damn sure doesn’t do much of anything in coco

I do feel like it is important to “buffer” above 6.2 just to make your soluble calcium work properly

And while I am asking would you choose super triple over bone meal if organic was not an issue? Obviously combined with humic/fulvic