I've never used an "additive"...do I "need" to?

YosemiteSam · Oct 2, 2010

spurr said:
I do not consider additives from hydro stores to be must have besides silica. I for one make extensive use of PGRs which definitely do increase yield, growth rate, phototropism, rate of photosynthesis, amount of trichs, etc; but the PGRs I use do not come from any hydro store or cannabis company. The cost of PGRs is so little it's not even funny, $50 worth of PGRs will last a year or more unless you have a huge garden...but I digress.

In terms of supplements from a hydro store, ProTekT is the only must have IMO. The reason being, Si (silcia) is a very needed element, rates as high as ~50-100 ppm assist plant growth greatly, and assist plant biological functions, along with assisting Ca movement from source tissue (roots) to sink tissue (leafs). Si is a very underrated element because when plant ash tests were first concluded (near a century ago) Si was not tested, thus, today Si is not included in most 'base' ferts even tho it's very beneficial. I can provide many peer-reviewed white papers (studies and reviews) published in respected academic journals if you wish to read further. Using 2.5 ml per gallon of ProTeKt provides a good amount of Si and means one bottle of ProTeKt will last a long time, thus it's a sound investment.

Another very useful additive is citric acid. The reason citric acid is a great additive is it bonds to P anions keeping them soluble in the rhizosphere and soil solution. Also citric acid helps the Krebs cycle. The reason P anions are not needed by plants at the same level of N, K or Ca is that P anions are not readily available to plants in nature, thus they have evolved to use lower levels of P than other major elements. I could explain all the why's but this post would get long and IME most people don't care about the why's as it gets technical in the topic of soil science.

In short, P anions are not very mobile in the soil solution (thin layer of water surrounding particles in media, soilless and soil) and are readily bound and made insoluble to media particles and other elements and organic substances; critic acid prevents this. The soil solution holds cations in equilibrium to the cations held in cation exchange sites of media particles. Roots exude large amounts of citric acid that keeps P anions soluble in rhizosphere and soil solution. Roots also 'feed themselves' by exuding critic acid (and other acidic chemicals/substances) that mineralizes P anions from organic matter like soft rock phosphate, etc.

I agree with Carl Carlson that your plants do not look healthy, no offense intended, just being honest. They look over fed and it looks like they have have pH issues. In all your pics the leafs are in bad shape which is a main indicator of plant health. What Carl wrote "In pics 3 and 4 we can see the leaf tips and margins curled up. This indicates that the plant is trying to retain moisture. Are you battling high temps? Is the bulb too close? A strong fan blowing directly on the plants? Not enough air exchange?" is pretty much what I would write, with a few caveats and a few additions:

The leaf canoeing issue in all your pics can be from a few issues Carl listed, but it's not necessarily from plant trying to retain moisture because plants simply reduce stomatal conductance to retain moisture (close down stoma) in repose to high "Air to Leaf Vapor Pressure Deficit" (i.e. low RH and high temp) which in turn limits the translocation of Ca to leafs do to low "E" (rate of transpiration). Thus, the leaf canoeing can be from Ca issues which could be caused by too dry (or too dry and too hot) atmosphere (i.e. high VPD) which hinders translocation of Ca from roots to shoots/leafs due to reduced E.

Also, if your providing too much irradiance (lamps to close in terms of light, not heat) the leaf margins can curl which if the plant attempts to reduce the surface area of the leaf thus limiting the photons striking the leaf. If the top leafs are 'praying' that is another sign you are proving too much light, if leafs pray that is often the plants attempt to limit surface area of leaf thus reducing the photons striking the leaf. However, if plants on the perifery of the light/garden are praying toward the light it can mean the plant is trying to get more light, but in that case usually only the far side of the plant's leafs will pray toward the light and the side closer to the light will stay horizontal. So, both leaf curling inward (canoeing) and leafs praying can indicate light saturation which hinders the plant and can cause the plant leaf tissue to respire (photorespiration) which is a bad thing as it greatly hinders photosynthesis in C3 plants such as cannabis.

I too would be interested in your use of PGRs along with where you source them. I would also be interested in where you source citric acid. And lastly (well for now anyways) why do you prefer Pro-Tekt...why not just buy some potassium silicate bulk and then mix it fairly dilute so that adding it does not cause precipitation?

TheBioMaster · Oct 3, 2010

I thought PGR's were a bad thing you wanted to avoid?

spurr · Oct 3, 2010

@ all,

sorry I haven't reasponded yet, I promise tomorrow I will try to answer all Q's and give more info. Thanks for the kind words for my posts.

@ Thebiomaster:

There are two types of PGRs: (1) Plant Growth Regulators like triacontanol, kinitin, brassinosteroids, etc; and (2) Plant Growth Retardants like paclobutrazol, bush master, etc. The latter type, Retardants, are bad and they limit growth, the former, Regulators, are good and increase growth (among many other benefits).

spurr · Oct 3, 2010

FWIW, there are many PGR(etardants) sold for greenhouse culture of marigolds, etc, they often contain paclobutrazol or other similar systemic and dangerous, not fit for human consumption, chemicals.

If I were to use Plant Growth Retardants I would not use products marketed to cannabis, like Bush Master, I would use products marketed to the greenhouse industry. However, I prefer to control plant height using "cool morning dump" (e.x., DIF of -5'F for 3 hours starting at lights on event), which has a very strong effect on plant height and internodal length. I for one would NEVER use a Plant Growth Retardant on plants for human consumption! Using various methods to provide a 0 or -5'F or -10'F DIF (ex. cool morning dump) is the best method when not using those harmful chemicals.

Cool morning dump DIF works by reducing the effect of GA3 within plant which is built up in the early morning.

BirdManFlyHigh · Oct 3, 2010

personally i think these bottles add potency, density and resin production.
your dialed in add some old school big bud and you will see an improvement, add some sweet or some bud candy watch your crystal double even snowstorm as a foliar.
in my opinion solely going organic is for the budget growers, you want the most of the plants organic tastes like the earth in my opinion.dirt. use what inhances flavor and potency your plants already have.,

Bababooey · Oct 4, 2010

You say that PGR's like paclo are not fit for human consumption, but arent they used on fruits? I remember seeing a study of paclo use on mango trees, and they tested the fruits afterwards and found no residues.

down2grow · Oct 6, 2010

Spurr,
I'm also interested in what you have to say about the PPDF thing and about is giving our girls too much light. I started a thread in the vertical section, but no one has answered my questions. Not to jump on the OP or anything, just trying to get some answers. Is 2000w too much PPDF in a 10x5' footprint? I'm dealing with a little heat issues so my plan was to run one of the lights from 6pm-2am and the other from 10pm-6am(light mover effect or flip flopping lights). So from 6pm-10pm would be like early morning, 10pm-2am high noon and 2am-6am would be afternoon. Good idea?

D2G

PetFlora · Nov 1, 2010

This is a loaded question that begs many questions before anyone can provide a 'defintive' answer. If you grow in high quality soil, and use enough per plant (min 5 G to a 2 ft plant) you probably won't need any grow additives. Imagine adding some of the crazy high PK bloom boosters to <3 gal soil/less pot. It's a receipe for disaster.

However, if you are uing some form of hydro, then most likely you need many additives. Dutch Masters nutess seem formualted for hydro. As I grow via TAG, I definitely benefit from additives throughout the process.

IwannatokeNbone · Nov 1, 2010

take all your additive money and if u can manage the heat of an extra light no matter how small add that, its the only sure thing, u have people spending a hundred more on additives a grow, go to htg and take your hundo n buy a another 150hps, should bring u 3-4 more ounces if u use it properly , nutes wont come even close to that ever, thats my advice

prowler · Nov 3, 2010

Sorry guys for a such an newb question but are you suggesting that one should use silica as advised on the bottle?

I use Liquid Silicon and it is suggested to use like this:

Calculate how much silicon needs to be
added to the tank. A good starting point is
1 ml per 2 litres of final tank volume
(≈ 1 teaspoon per 2 gallons).

Now if i do this my pH is raising to somewhere 8,5 or more. Then i have to add maybe 10 times more pH down than without it. I have been dosing Silicon ~10 times less to achieve more rational pH swing.

So the question is: Should i stick to suggested amounts even if i have to use so much more pH-?

Thank you really for answering this.

Syd · Nov 3, 2010

Good question. I was interested in using a Si source like Mineral Magic after reading some recent threads and my water already has a natural pH 7.9 that I lower by lemon juice. Will I need bags of lemons?

Noobian · Nov 3, 2010

Get the real deal pH up and down it's cheap and it works a hell of a lot better than lemon juice. I used to use lemon juice too and it worked but it was not consistent enough. Since I've started using the pH up and down my plants look soooo much better, I don't get the leaf drop that I was getting before and my buds are tighter and more resinous.

Scrogerman · Nov 3, 2010

Ive Grown some of the best Buds ive seen with Just Ionic (1 part bloom) it's boost component & a little H2o2(oxy+) From start to finish, Basic works just fine, but i have to admit, Terpine,Trichome production can be manipulated & enhanced by using additives, but the actual list of products needed to get a decent product is very minimal, just the Ionic Bloom will work just fine on its own as does the maxibloom. look at the difference in 20 years, there wasnt all this crap back then & plants grew just fine. Maybe H2o2 & Silica i recommend to have on hand. CannaBoost does work though, ill have to admit it, Gggrrr, its far too expensive. Im looking to make my own. Considering going elemental salts too & making my own completely from scratch.

Syd · Nov 3, 2010

Noobian said:
Get the real deal pH up and down it's cheap and it works a hell of a lot better than lemon juice. I used to use lemon juice too and it worked but it was not consistent enough. Since I've started using the pH up and down my plants look soooo much better, I don't get the leaf drop that I was getting before and my buds are tighter and more resinous.

I don't know if pH down bottles are cheaper than lemons but lemons are easier to find and there's always a bag in my kitchen's fridge.
Plus citric acid has beneficials ( https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=191399&highlight=citric ) and when I emailed to nutes companies like Plagron or Biobizz to know if it was compatible with their nutes, they answered it was even a very good choice.
What's your growing medium?

Strapped · Nov 3, 2010

are you h202 users using pharmaceutical h202 or horticultural? In what dosages?

ion · Nov 4, 2010

i'm a lil perplexed; you can get silica from h202?

i use organic unsulphured molasses, raw honey twice in the onset, and raw milk 4x during onset. always feed the critters you cant see.

and hey, Strapped, most of what ive read indicated pharma h202(3%)....here's a lil 411 from my files;

****

It is this hydrogen peroxide in rainwater that makes it so much more effective than tap water when given to plants. With the increased levels of atmospheric pollution, however, greater amounts of H202 react with air-borne toxins and never reach the ground. To compensate for this, many farmers have been increasing crop yields by spraying them with diluted hydrogen peroxide (5 to 16 ounces of 35% mixed with 20 gallons of water per acre). You can achieve the same beneficial effect with your house plants by adding 1 ounce of 3% hydrogen peroxide (or 16 drops of 35% solution) to every quart of water you give your plants. (It can also be made into an excellent safe insecticide. Simply spray your plants with 8 ounces of 3% peroxide mixed with 8 ounces of white sugar and one gallon of water.)

Hydrogen peroxide is odorless and colorless, but not tasteless. When stored under the proper conditions, it is a very stable compound. When kept in the absence of light and contaminants, it dismutates (breaks down) very slowly at the rate of about 10% a year. (This can be slowed even further by storing the liquid in the freezer.) It boils at 152 degrees C and freezes at minus 2 degrees C.

When exposed to other compounds hydrogen peroxide dismutates readily. The extra oxygen atom is released leaving H20 (water). In nature oxygen (02) consists of two atoms--a very stable combination. A single atom of oxygen, however, is very reactive and is referred to as a free radical. Over the past several years, we've continually read that these free radicals are responsible for all types of ailments and even premature aging. What many writers seem to forget, however, is that our bodies create and use free radicals to destroy harmful bacteria, viruses, and fungi. In fact, the cells responsible for fighting infection and foreign invaders in the body (your white blood cells) make hydrogen peroxide and use it to oxidize any offending culprits. The intense bubbling you see when hydrogen peroxide comes in contact with a bacteria-laden cut or wound is the oxygen being released and bacteria being destroyed. The ability of our cells to produce hydrogen peroxide is essential for life. H202 is not some undesirable by-product or toxin, but instead a basic requirement for good health.

Newer research indicates we need hydrogen peroxide for a multitude of other chemical reactions that take place throughout the body. For example, we now know that vitamin C helps fight infections by producing hydrogen peroxide, which in turn stimulates the production of prostaglandins. Also lactobacillus found in the colon and vagina produce hydrogen peroxide. This destroys harmful bacteria and viruses, preventing colon disease, vaginitis, bladder infections and a host of other common ailments. (Infect Dis News Aug.8,91:5). When lactobacillus in the colon or vaginal tract have been overrun with harmful viruses, yeast, or bacteria, an effective douche or enema solution can be made using 3 tablespoons of 3% H202 in 1 quart of distilled water. Keep in mind, however, that a good bacterial flora must always be re-established in theses areas to achieve lasting results.

Strapped · Nov 5, 2010

woot, thanks bro

Scrogerman · Nov 5, 2010

spurr said:
I do not consider additives from hydro stores to be must have besides silica. I for one make extensive use of PGRs which definitely do increase yield, growth rate, phototropism, rate of photosynthesis, amount of trichs, etc; but the PGRs I use do not come from any hydro store or cannabis company. The cost of PGRs is so little it's not even funny, $50 worth of PGRs will last a year or more unless you have a huge garden...but I digress.

In terms of supplements from a hydro store, ProTekT is the only must have IMO. The reason being, Si (silcia) is a very needed element, rates as high as ~50-100 ppm assist plant growth greatly, and assist plant biological functions, along with assisting Ca movement from source tissue (roots) to sink tissue (leafs). Si is a very underrated element because when plant ash tests were first concluded (near a century ago) Si was not tested, thus, today Si is not included in most 'base' ferts even tho it's very beneficial. I can provide many peer-reviewed white papers (studies and reviews) published in respected academic journals if you wish to read further. Using 2.5 ml per gallon of ProTeKt provides a good amount of Si and means one bottle of ProTeKt will last a long time, thus it's a sound investment.

Another very useful additive is citric acid. The reason citric acid is a great additive is it bonds to P anions keeping them soluble in the rhizosphere and soil solution. Also citric acid helps the Krebs cycle. The reason P anions are not needed by plants at the same level of N, K or Ca is that P anions are not readily available to plants in nature, thus they have evolved to use lower levels of P than other major elements. I could explain all the why's but this post would get long and IME most people don't care about the why's as it gets technical in the topic of soil science.

In short, P anions are not very mobile in the soil solution (thin layer of water surrounding particles in media, soilless and soil) and are readily bound and made insoluble to media particles and other elements and organic substances; critic acid prevents this. The soil solution holds cations in equilibrium to the cations held in cation exchange sites of media particles. Roots exude large amounts of citric acid that keeps P anions soluble in rhizosphere and soil solution. Roots also 'feed themselves' by exuding critic acid (and other acidic chemicals/substances) that mineralizes P anions from organic matter like soft rock phosphate, etc.

I agree with Carl Carlson that your plants do not look healthy, no offense intended, just being honest. They look over fed and it looks like they have have pH issues. In all your pics the leafs are in bad shape which is a main indicator of plant health. What Carl wrote "In pics 3 and 4 we can see the leaf tips and margins curled up. This indicates that the plant is trying to retain moisture. Are you battling high temps? Is the bulb too close? A strong fan blowing directly on the plants? Not enough air exchange?" is pretty much what I would write, with a few caveats and a few additions:

The leaf canoeing issue in all your pics can be from a few issues Carl listed, but it's not necessarily from plant trying to retain moisture because plants simply reduce stomatal conductance to retain moisture (close down stoma) in repose to high "Air to Leaf Vapor Pressure Deficit" (i.e. low RH and high temp) which in turn limits the translocation of Ca to leafs do to low "E" (rate of transpiration). Thus, the leaf canoeing can be from Ca issues which could be caused by too dry (or too dry and too hot) atmosphere (i.e. high VPD) which hinders translocation of Ca from roots to shoots/leafs due to reduced E.

Also, if your providing too much irradiance (lamps to close in terms of light, not heat) the leaf margins can curl which if the plant attempts to reduce the surface area of the leaf thus limiting the photons striking the leaf. If the top leafs are 'praying' that is another sign you are proving too much light, if leafs pray that is often the plants attempt to limit surface area of leaf thus reducing the photons striking the leaf. However, if plants on the perifery of the light/garden are praying toward the light it can mean the plant is trying to get more light, but in that case usually only the far side of the plant's leafs will pray toward the light and the side closer to the light will stay horizontal. So, both leaf curling inward (canoeing) and leafs praying can indicate light saturation which hinders the plant and can cause the plant leaf tissue to respire (photorespiration) which is a bad thing as it greatly hinders photosynthesis in C3 plants such as cannabis.

Some nice Info here, you seem to know your shit well!

btw, im seeing posters mentioning abrieviations that we never use in the MJ growing community. PGR is missleading & can mean both regulator & retardant, there are others that people are using that never get used either, i think for a reason. I wish people would explain themselves instead of using confusing ABS!

Scrogerman · Nov 5, 2010

Strapped said:
are you h202 users using pharmaceutical h202 or horticultural? In what dosages?

I use Oxy+ made for the purpose. its 17.5% strength used at 0.5ml per ltr(i also use at 0.25mls P/L) Love the stuff, i've always seen massive growth sperts a day or 2 after application, what a visible boost it provides, why more people dont use it is beyond me! the benefits far outway the negatives! But use in moderation only imo#1 If you wanna see a nutrient uptake boost & you use mineral based ferts, give this stuff a try, you wont be dissapointed. just make sure you dont use organics or beneficial bacteria whilst using H202(work with it not against it & you'll see it do it's thing) ). Si rocks too. G'Luck all!

Ion!, Have you heard of OxySilver? check that stuff out. Hype or True? be good if that stuff does what its supposed to.

I've never used an "additive"...do I "need" to?

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