What's new
  • Please note members who been with us for more than 10 years have been upgraded to "Veteran" status and will receive exclusive benefits. If you wish to find out more about this or support IcMag and get same benefits, check this thread here.
  • Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!

That's not organic

Status
Not open for further replies.

Pwyll

Member
Listening to a podcast I hear some commercial grower bragging his plants were grown "mostly organic". If meat is less than 20% of my diet I am not "mostly vegetarian" I am a meat eater.
 

Microbeman

The Logical Gardener
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Listening to a podcast I hear some commercial grower bragging his plants were grown "mostly organic". If meat is less than 20% of my diet I am not "mostly vegetarian" I am a meat eater.

The age old question. Who decides what is organic?
 
G

Gr33nSanta

its mostly organic I only spray in veg and first 2 weeks of flowers -JOKE
 

Avinash.miles

Caregiver Extraordinaire
Moderator
ICMag Donor
Veteran
The age old question. Who decides what is organic?

easier to decide what's NOT
like don't tell me about the "mostly organic" stuff, tell me about what the OTHER stuff is that was used
just some urea in veg for a boost of green?
or sprayed e20 and avid up to day of harvest?
"mostly organic" can mean so many things.....
 

III%

Member
I hate to say it but there is many stupid people in this world.

If you were to ask 100 ppl on the street to define the term organic most would just stand there and drool.

Now organic can be a tricky topic, because some fertilizers are made from 100% organic materials but the company won't pay the exorbinate fees to have it listed omri or other certification.

Now here is something else to look at, grass is organic right in its definition of the word grass is an organic material, however if I use Scotts weed and feed on my grass the grass itself is an organic material but it was not organically grown. If I put that in my compost heap is my compost now not organic?

Also some mined minerals that are commonly used in gardening are technically organic because they come from the earth but they cannot listed as organic.
 

growingcrazy

Well-known member
The term organic being tossed around with cannabis is mostly still a joke.

We already have a system in place that designates what is and is not a certified organic product by growing method and inputs.

If you are not growing with 100% OMRI ingredients then you can't call it organic. Think of the term "organic" in farming terms not a type of input but just as a type of certification, a "degree" if you will.

Those growers who do not use organics, but do use a 100% natural method, should be considered naturally grown. Essentially organic practices without the cert. Still requiring no inputs that are chemicals, salts or man-made products.

Chems would be anything that comes from a non natural process to create a liquid or powder fertilizer.

This isn't a complicated issue, one non-organic input makes it not organic. I am a farmer, if anybody were to find out an organic farm was using a single non organic practice they would be black listed from the organic community.

I hate to say it but there is many stupid people in this world.

If you were to ask 100 ppl on the street to define the term organic most would just stand there and drool.

Now organic can be a tricky topic, because some fertilizers are made from 100% organic materials but the company won't pay the exorbitant fees to have it listed omri or other certification. Companies like Espoma that use natural inputs don't certify because they can't. Blood and bone meal mostly comes from Mcdonald's Beef feed lots, feather meal from Tyson/Perdue chicken factories, cotton seed meal is one of the most heavily pesticide ridden crops on the planet etc..

Now here is something else to look at, grass is organic right in its definition of the word grass is an organic material, however if I use Scotts weed and feed on my grass the grass itself is an organic material but it was not organically grown. If I put that in my compost heap is my compost now not organic? Yes grass is natural, grown with sunlight and water, it is "organic". Grown with chemical fertilizers its not organic, again this isn't very difficult. Your also weed and feeding the cells in your body if your drinking well water near that grassy patch, fyi.


Also some mined minerals that are commonly used in gardening are technically organic because they come from the earth but they cannot listed as organic. Can you list a couple?

You wouldn't consider a hamburger to be a steak just because they came from a cow.
 
Last edited:

Easy7

Active member
Veteran
I don't think it's possible to value a % of organics. Sprayed with man made unnatural chem is about as inorganic as I can imagine.

USDA says organic only has to be 95% organic. Again, no idea here how they value what a % is. Has to say 100% organic to truly be organic.

It's impossible to be 100% organic on Earth. Every part of this planet has pollutants from man.
 

hillbil

Active member
OMRI does not certify my compost or leaf mold or gravel or Alpaca manure and organic growing has taken place since plants began to grow without an "official" tag.
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
it would be defined as transitional and it is better than conventional farming methodologies for the environment and the cultivator can get the benefit of both conventional and organic techniques

and this is a definitive organic definition but it varies based on the authority you are subject too and of course your own conscience
 

wasgedn

Active member
damn fertilizer industry is round about 40 years old...
animal mass farming is similar old...
before that it was all organic and better...
only the industry need seeds which are ready for harvest at same day and have exact same size..we don't need nothing then water,sun,space and education...
maybe the first harvest is shitty but when working on to get healthy soil it will become supersoil and that everwhere...you can alter sand to humus...no magic...
with mineral fert you alter humus to sand in less time...
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
fertilizer industry was born from the bomb making industry during the world wars

they noticed the nitrogen left over from bomb making made plants green

that is right, the same select group that made out supplying precursors for bombs created the nightmare of nitrogen fertilizers because they wanted to make extra cash from waste munitions
 

DocTim420

The Doctor is OUT and has moved on...
Organic, natural, synthetic, non-synthetic...what makes one not like the other? IMO it is pure 100% dogma (a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true).

Example--aqueous Potassium Silicate (aka AgSil) is a "synthetic" substance that is "allowed" for organic production for pest and disease control...but "disallowed" for plant and soil nutrition. Why is it OK for one but not the other?

The NOP/OMRI restriction: The silica used in the manufacture of potassium silicate must be sourced from naturally occurring sand. May be used as an insecticide or disease control if the requirements of 205.206(e) are met, which require the use of preventative, mechanical, physical, and other pest, weed, and disease management practices. NOP Rule: 205.601(e)(2) & 205.601(i)(1)

The allowable synthetic criteria is the "deal breaker"--at 7 CFR §205.600(B)(1)--
(1) The substance cannot be produced from a natural source and there are no organic substitutes;

Ahh...synthetic usage might be OK--if there are no "organic substitutes". Got it. (Reminds me of pastors that preach marriage fidelity at the pulpit--but in real life were nasty sexual predators (ie Jim Bakker, Jerry Falwell, etc).

So...what about the ROLS crowd that include AgSil (a synthetic product) to increase Silica as part of their plant/soil nutrition regime. Are they still "100% organic" or "mostly organic"?

Now...how is that different to someone that is "100% organic" in every other way--but includes Potassium Phosphate in his flowering regime. Without question, he no longer is "100% pure organic"--but in his mind, he is "mostly organic"....probably 99% organic.

Oh! What a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.
 
Last edited:

DocTim420

The Doctor is OUT and has moved on...
fertilizer industry was born from the bomb making industry during the world wars

they noticed the nitrogen left over from bomb making made plants green

that is right, the same select group that made out supplying precursors for bombs created the nightmare of nitrogen fertilizers because they wanted to make extra cash from waste munitions

What ever you're smoking--I would be careful in sharing it, as you are 100% wrong (fake news?). Here are the facts--

Neolithic man probably used fertilizers, but the first fertilizer produced by chemical processes was ordinary superphosphate, made early in the 19th century by treating bones with sulfuric acid. Coprolites and phosphate rock soon replaced bones as the P source. The K fertilizer industry started in Germany in 1861. In North America the K industry started during World War I and expanded with development of the New Mexico deposits in 1931 and the Saskatchewan deposits in 1958. Modern K fertilizers are more the product of physical than of chemical processes. The first synthetic N fertilizer was calcium nitrate, made in 1903 from nitric acid produced by the electric arc process. The availability of synthetic ammonia after 1913 led to many new N fertilizers, but physical quality was poor. In 1933 TVA was formed with a national responsibility to increase the efficiency of fertilizer manufacture and use. More than 75% of the fertilizer produced in the United States is made with processes developed by TVA.


https://dl.sciencesocieties.org/publications/sssaj/abstracts/41/2/SS0410020260?access=0&view=pdf

The following observation is more accurate than what you said--

During the 1940s, fertilizer exploded in more ways than one. During the war, nitrogen was one of the prime components of TNT and other high explosives, and the U.S. government built 10 new plants to supply nitrogen for bombs. After the war, those plants produced ammonia for fertilizer. Fertilizer use exploded, in part because the supply was there and in part because farmers and scientists understood how important nutrients were to crops.

http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe40s/crops_04.html

So to say the "fertilizer industry was born from the bomb making industry during the world wars" is 100% pure bullshit.
 

Avinash.miles

Caregiver Extraordinaire
Moderator
ICMag Donor
Veteran
What ever you're smoking--I would be careful in sharing it, as you are 100% wrong (fake news?). Here are the facts--

Neolithic man probably used fertilizers, but the first fertilizer produced by chemical processes was ordinary superphosphate, made early in the 19th century by treating bones with sulfuric acid. Coprolites and phosphate rock soon replaced bones as the P source. The K fertilizer industry started in Germany in 1861. In North America the K industry started during World War I and expanded with development of the New Mexico deposits in 1931 and the Saskatchewan deposits in 1958. Modern K fertilizers are more the product of physical than of chemical processes. The first synthetic N fertilizer was calcium nitrate, made in 1903 from nitric acid produced by the electric arc process. The availability of synthetic ammonia after 1913 led to many new N fertilizers, but physical quality was poor. In 1933 TVA was formed with a national responsibility to increase the efficiency of fertilizer manufacture and use. More than 75% of the fertilizer produced in the United States is made with processes developed by TVA.


https://dl.sciencesocieties.org/publications/sssaj/abstracts/41/2/SS0410020260?access=0&view=pdf

The following observation is more accurate than what you said--

During the 1940s, fertilizer exploded in more ways than one. During the war, nitrogen was one of the prime components of TNT and other high explosives, and the U.S. government built 10 new plants to supply nitrogen for bombs. After the war, those plants produced ammonia for fertilizer. Fertilizer use exploded, in part because the supply was there and in part because farmers and scientists understood how important nutrients were to crops.

http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe40s/crops_04.html

So to say the "fertilizer industry was born from the bomb making industry during the world wars" is 100% pure bullshit.

seems like you are providing eveidence the fertilizer industry DID spring from bomb making during (and in between) the world wars....
ur quotes (and bolds) include references to world wars
tva was made to create power for manhattan project, which developed the A-bomb...
maybe you copy & pasted the wrong material, then bolded the lines that would go against your argument rather than support it?


many people fail to grasp that there are complex relationships between plant roots, soil life, and contents of the soil
synthetic fertilizer will grow plants with TOTAL disregard for these natural relationships.- but with long term diminishing returns and higher and higher demands for synthetic fertilizers, and after years of application the land is left void of the soil life necessary to maintain those relationships necessary for natural growth of plants
i assure you there is a difference between the 2 methods
 

mojave green

rockin in the free world
Veteran
many people fail to grasp that there are complex relationships between plant roots, soil life, and contents of the soil
synthetic fertilizer will grow plants with TOTAL disregard for these natural relationships.- but with long term diminishing returns and higher and higher demands for synthetic fertilizers, and after years of application the land is left void of the soil life necessary to maintain those relationships necessary for natural growth of plants
i assure you there is a difference between the 2 methods
And this applies to my hydroponic growing methods how?
 

DocTim420

The Doctor is OUT and has moved on...
seems like you are providing eveidence the fertilizer industry DID spring from bomb making during (and in between) the world wars....
ur quotes (and bolds) include references to world wars
tva was made to create power for manhattan project, which developed the A-bomb...
maybe you copy & pasted the wrong material, then bolded the lines that would go against your argument rather than support it?


many people fail to grasp that there are complex relationships between plant roots, soil life, and contents of the soil
synthetic fertilizer will grow plants with TOTAL disregard for these natural relationships.- but with long term diminishing returns and higher and higher demands for synthetic fertilizers, and after years of application the land is left void of the soil life necessary to maintain those relationships necessary for natural growth of plants
i assure you there is a difference between the 2 methods

Expanding after the WWII is much different than what Weird stated, "fertilizer industry was born from the bomb making industry during the world wars". Such a statement basically ignores/erases all the fertilizer endeavors/advancements/discoveries of the 19th century and is not supported by any "recognized authority"...unless you impose the notion that Nitrogen is the ONLY fertilizer for purposes of this discussion. Hell, I got all 90 naturally occurring elements in my soil--all organically/OMRI sourced (doubt many others can make the same claim).

BTW, if all "synthetic? fertilizers were "bad"--then why are many synthetics are approved for "organic" use? Dogma I say...lol.

Not advocating "synthetic" fertilizer use, just pointing out some inconsistencies in the "organic" game.
 

Avinash.miles

Caregiver Extraordinaire
Moderator
ICMag Donor
Veteran
And this applies to my hydroponic growing methods how?

one example
plant roots emit attractants (aka exudates) intended to draw benficial micro organisms in the soil toward the roots, so that the symbiotic relationship can form between them.
in organic systems these exudates are used by soil born micro organisms (fungal, bacterial, etc) to establish and maintain the mutually beneficial relationship between them and the plants roots.
however
in organic systems, these root exudates are simply rinsed off and flushed into the nutrient solution, basically ignored, their natural purpose disregarded and plants are insted fed via directly available forms of necessary minerals / elements

once again, the difference between these 2 methods is not just in your head, or based on some kind of blind belief ("dogma"), instead they are fundamentally different ways to achieve a similar outcome - imo the major difference between the two comes when you compare agriculture lands that have had long term use of one method or the other, but there are many

:tiphat:
 

MedResearcher

Member
Veteran
Certain non organic substances are allowed in a certified organic farm. At one point I read some of the list. They allow micro sulfates, when you actually need them. They also allow a % of the years total nitrogen to come from a specific non organic source.


Its really next to impossible to really police. I know of an organic pear farm, that just keeps the synthetics hidden in a shed and used when needed. Basically you pay them, they come and look around the farm, leave and give you a stamp to put on your product.


Think if you are really concerned, you should get to know your producers. Otherwise your just shooting in the dark. Luckily the pesticide/fungicide can at least be tested for residue.

Afaik, perlite is not organic. I also have heard its actually cancerous or carcinogenic. Always wear a mask, could try to avoid it. Lava rock seems like a better choice.


Mr^^
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top