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Too Much Organic Matter/Tea?

DuskrayTroubador

Active member
Veteran
Hi all,


A problem I've had the past couple years is that my plants have been growing incredibly slowly in veg. I mix in and top dress plenty of worm castings, goat manure, and rabbit manure. Plants get plenty of rain, and when I water, I water with insect frass tea.


But, I water with a very heavy concentration of frass tea. Like, anywhere from half cup per gallon of water to a whole cup (or more) insect frass per gallon.


I chose all of these fertilizers because they're said to be "cold" fertilizers that will not burn plants. To be fair, my plants never show any signs of burning... Growth just grinds to a halt or proceeds slowly, and in many cases leaves will yellow, curl, and fall (but not have burnt tips anywhere).


Is it possible that I'm giving them too much in the way of organic matter and frass tea? Can too much of these things fuck growth up? Is it possible that I'm locking out other things such as calcium and that's why growth is stunted? For what it's worth, I initially thought the yellowing leaves might be a sign of disease and so I sprayed with milk (which is, of course, high in calcium) and that seemed to help the plants out -- but not enough to fully reverse their condition.


The plants were all otherwise healthy -- they make it to harvest with minimal issues and the bud is dank -- they just seem to have a lot of trouble vegging and getting big.
 

Great outdoors

Active member
Hard to say as there are many varying factors. But that definitely sounds like a lot of insect grass. Do you give your soil time to cook before you plant?
With ample organic amendments, and time to cook and activate you should be good for at least a couple months or basically veg time with strictly water.
 

troutman

Seed Whore
All fertilizers can burn a plant if used in excess. ;)

If too much organic matter is decomposing it will tie up nutrients up. Especially nitrogen.
 

DuskrayTroubador

Active member
Veteran
Thanks for the replies, guys!


Sometimes they have time to cook, other times not so much. But The only things I add are lime, gypsum, insect frass (dry, mixed into the soil), some kelp meal, but mostly worm castings, rabbit manure, and goat manure.



Do things like worm castings and mushroom compost decompose further and tie up nitrogen?


...so maybe try just leaving the holes alone until I plant next year?


My best plant this year had probably the least worm castings and other manures mixed in, and it was a newly dug hole.
 

DuskrayTroubador

Active member
Veteran
Fortunately (for next year anyway, rather unfortunate for this year), most of the holes I have ended up with no plants in them. Simply taken over by native grasses, which will have eaten up any excess nutrients I'm hoping.


My plan is to chop and drop all the grasses grown over the holes and leave them to return to the soil for next year. Hopefully, after a year "off" and a fresh layer of chopped stuff laying on top over winter, I'll end up with some good soil that won't need amended before planting in the Spring.
 

Great outdoors

Active member
The one questionable ingredient I see in your mix is the goat manure. I am not well versed on goat manure, but typically manure needs to be well aged or it can burn. Rabbit manure as well as lama I know can be used right away, but not sure with goats.
I tend to not use manures or worm castings as they are quite dense making for poor areation. I just add lots of organic material such as alfalfa meal, soybean meal, fish bone meal, kelp meal, etc a month before. By the time I plant the soil is full of worms making their castings naturally complete with aeration tunnels.
It's hard to overuse organic amendments as long as you let it cook a month or more and stay away from manures unless they are really well aged.
 

Rico Swazi

Active member
Soil biology, or lack thereof seems more likely the issue than nutrient over/under fertilization. This statement by the OP makes me think that



My best plant this year had probably the least worm castings and other manures mixed in, and it was a newly dug hole.


due to mycorrhizal interaction to process the nutrients that are already there in the soil. Every time it rains you get more nitrogen and other elements . Less is more. with the exception of biology.


My plan is to chop and drop all the grasses grown over the holes and leave them to return to the soil for next year. Hopefully, after a year "off" and a fresh layer of chopped stuff laying on top over winter, I'll end up with some good soil that won't need amended before planting in the Spring.


Duskray , do that along with a heavy mulch and I'm betting you will be pleasantly surprised. Good luck
 

'Boogieman'

Well-known member
How much gypsum did you use? I had to give my plants extra magnesium and potassium this year outdoors which I believe is from using too much gypsum. Now I will add very small amounts to my soil for now on. I make vermicompost and have always used large amounts of organic matter in my soil with great results. I don't believe the problem is too much organic matter.
 

Bud Green

I dig dirt
Veteran
You can overfeed using 100% organic materials almost (but not quite) as easily as you can with salt based chemical ferts....

..
 

40degsouth

Well-known member
Hey everyone, l hope you’re all well.
It’s like Great Outdoors stated Duskray, there’s so many variables missing that it’s difficult to give you any opinion. I personally use bulk amounts of organic amendments in conjunction with compost teas and see some fantastic vigour, in many strains, to the point where they can double the heights in the official strain reports.
I try to get my amendments in about six to eight weeks before planting and top dress during the season with things like blood and bone at one handful to the square meter.
I’m going to try dhal flour this year as well because, being a legume (pulse) it’s very high in rapidly available nitrogen.
Perhaps you could give us an idea of the strains that are displaying these particular symptoms and others that may push through, remembering different plants feed differently. I feel this is the place to start a forensic diagnosis.
Cheers,
40
 

h.h.

Active member
Veteran
Hi all,


A problem I've had the past couple years is that my plants have been growing incredibly slowly in veg. I mix in and top dress plenty of worm castings, goat manure, and rabbit manure. Plants get plenty of rain, and when I water, I water with insect frass tea.


But, I water with a very heavy concentration of frass tea. Like, anywhere from half cup per gallon of water to a whole cup (or more) insect frass per gallon.


I chose all of these fertilizers because they're said to be "cold" fertilizers that will not burn plants. To be fair, my plants never show any signs of burning... Growth just grinds to a halt or proceeds slowly, and in many cases leaves will yellow, curl, and fall (but not have burnt tips anywhere).


Is it possible that I'm giving them too much in the way of organic matter and frass tea? Can too much of these things fuck growth up? Is it possible that I'm locking out other things such as calcium and that's why growth is stunted? For what it's worth, I initially thought the yellowing leaves might be a sign of disease and so I sprayed with milk (which is, of course, high in calcium) and that seemed to help the plants out -- but not enough to fully reverse their condition.


The plants were all otherwise healthy -- they make it to harvest with minimal issues and the bud is dank -- they just seem to have a lot of trouble vegging and getting big.

Seven years?

I read that somewhere about manure. Salts will build up and the soil needs irrigating. I saw this in a friends plot after about that many years of applying horse manure. Gypsum was applied along with irrigation to leach the soil.

While I agree with Boogie on limiting gypsum, gypsum is very mobile, especially with irrigation. It just passes through while in theory carrying excess magnesium along with it.
 

art.spliff

Active member
ICMag Donor
For your first question more organic matter is better of course what it is matters. Coco coir, compost and wood chips are three sources of organic matter but only two are ready for growing plants. Many things have conditions or parameters, sometimes it depends that sort of thing. Mixing whole dried leaves or pieces of tree branches sawdust wood chips, these things are organic matter and they are not good to mix in a potting soil. What you want is compost, piled leaves that have been sitting until the pieces are below a certain size and ingredients indistinguishable. That kind of compost will add organic matter and nutrients to soil. Manure insect frass and other organic fertilizers can all be composted. If your compost pile has a healthy worm and insect population then probably you do not have to buy any in a bag. Insect frass looks like good fertilizer and it also looks like sawdust in a bag for sale. The value depends on what you already have available in your garden etc.

Soil texture is important. If you have heavy soil then you want to make it light and airy in consistency and density for the roots to be able to grow and breathe easier. This is not a fertilizer related concept. You can overlap or bandage or supplement to attempt to make it so but the consistency of the growing medium is not the same as the nutrient content. Put another way you may want to break up your existing soil into something more friable the soil itself may already be rich with nutrients.

Bulk compost would be what you want for something like this, bales of straw or hay that have decomposed. If you mow any grass you can save the bags in a pile and use it for mulch or compost. Something like coco coir is not full of nutrients like soil. If your soil is sand then adding coco coir may still give you something without much in the way of soil plant food or organic fertilizer. If you added half coco coir to clay soil then you may not have to add any organic fertilizer or much less.

This is only theory without going on a tangent if one setup has 500 ml cups with a big plant on top then the liquid feeding or electrical conductivity within the volume of the 500 ml of soil will be higher than say rainwater. If a plant has a root system that expands over a meter in every direction then the amount of ppm or teaspoons per gallon is lower it approaches zero or that of rainwater more or less. I do not have experience growing in sand (sandy soil). In clay I have found low density or softness or small particle size to help significantly with plant growth.

I would recommend making or collecting your own compost instead of buying it. That said filling your planting holes with any quality compost over the winter is probably more and better preparation than most growers accomplish. This may sound like a bit of a side note but if something sounds like fancy dirt in a bag it probably is. Worm casts are worm casts they are from worms for growing food worms are everywhere they live in soil. Sprouting, or fermenting, before we had air pumps in compost tea, all may likely contribute to activating soil biology. In other words if I wanted to grow a small bonsai inside in only coco coir or moss or gravel organically then I may try fermenting all of these plant juices and stuff. For the big picture pile it up over winter.

What places are selling in little paper sacks and calling compost starter may be similar or comparable to what you will be creating in your own soil at home. I'm not going to feed my plants fresh harvested barley sprout tea routinely as a base nutrient. Maybe as seedlings or throughout the year in a lower dilution. One recipe might say mix all of this organic fertilizer and wait six weeks to plant. For me mixing a compost pile and waiting a year or two as a minimum is a better starting point.
 

Drewsif

Member
I heard 33% composted silt is the key to successful organic mix.

But in reality.. No one is growing healthy plants in 33% compost/manure
 

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