Have you looked at the North Pole lately?

You don't make statements i don't like, but looking back at your post i can see that you were in agreeance with trichrider, not scoffing AT him, so my mistake.

Sometimes sarcasm (or vice versa) is hard to interpret through text, so i apologize.

I had the same conversation with someone a few weeks ago so that's why i was compelled to reply to you, not trying to 'jump on you'

Lyfespan said:

it tangential, how many variables do you think could possible be affected, by saline levels in the oceans?

Click to expand...

It will strongly affect our larger fish buddies. Both predator and prey will attempt to remain in the environment they are accustomed to. When saline levels change the species able to do so will search around for familiar waters.
This movement disturbs the force, new prey in areas, new predators in areas, added to the ones that cannot move.

These changes will have an effect on smaller life even more profound due to there being thousands of times more little species.
It seems most folks throw up their hands in frustration at the overwhelming complexity of it all. No obvious patterns can be discerned.

And humans being so smart, if a pattern was there we would not require education to see it, it would come natural.
How can that argument even be argued with?

Frylock said:

You don't make statements i don't like, but looking back at your post i can see that you were in agreeance with trichrider, not scoffing AT him, so my mistake.

Sometimes sarcasm (or vice versa) is hard to interpret through text, so i apologize.

I had the same conversation with someone a few weeks ago so that's why i was compelled to reply to you, not trying to 'jump on you'

Click to expand...

i for the clearity into the matter

Phaeton said:

It will strongly affect our larger fish buddies. Both predator and prey will attempt to remain in the environment they are accustomed to. When saline levels change the species able to do so will search around for familiar waters.
This movement disturbs the force, new prey in areas, new predators in areas, added to the ones that cannot move.

These changes will have an effect on smaller life even more profound due to there being thousands of times more little species.
It seems most folks throw up their hands in frustration at the overwhelming complexity of it all. No obvious patterns can be discerned.

And humans being so smart, if a pattern was there we would not require education to see it, it would come natural.
How can that argument even be argued with?

Click to expand...

yes those are some of the life variables affected, frightening to think about how much oxygen comes from the ocean flora.

another scary fact is that salt helps control the weather

end of july

end of july

the last day of july and the northern passage has appeared to open
again this is still july
add to it a tremendous spike of melting on greenland
i recommend all concerned take note
which means everyone

igrowone said:

the last day of july and the northern passage has appeared to open
again this is still july
add to it a tremendous spike of melting on greenland
i recommend all concerned take note
which means everyone

Click to expand...

concern noted, now that this ice is melting, do we see snow accumulations elsewhere?

i do know sierras got a record amount, mammoth just closed

hows the south pole looking?

seasonal snow cover is decreasing in general
glaciers outside of the polar regions are receding in general
indications of the state of the antarctic icecap aren't good
but the antarctic is worth a whole thread unto itself

igrowone said:

seasonal snow cover is decreasing in general
glaciers outside of the polar regions are receding in general
indications of the state of the antarctic icecap aren't good
but the antarctic is worth a whole thread unto itself

Click to expand...

Good everything is going along nicely

the antarctic looks pretty good from here
haven't seen any icebergs yet

ever wondered how its going to look, when we have reached the peak of the inter glacial period, before we roll over to a long icy time

might get a bit warm later on, we're still in a ice age now, and it could be a long way to go, seas still got 100s of meters to rise yet

Imagine, the entirety of human civilization has occured during this brief interglacial. When people say the world will end if it gets a bit warmer I just shake my head.

See what happens if things cool down just a little bit though, let alone if we were to suddenly come out of this interglacial period we find ourselves in. If the growing season were shortened by any length of time there would be mass starvation worldwide.

Mr. J said:

Imagine, the entirety of human civilization has occured during this brief interglacial. When people say the world will end if it gets a bit warmer I just shake my head.

Click to expand...

The map will change.

The US is so fragile that, losing most of Florida to a 20 foot sea-level rise (corresponding to a fraction of above-ground ice simply melting) ... Florida would become a long skinny thing.

Miami Dolphins fans may need comforting.

And since the US is already $22 Trillion in debt - how would they pay for re-building most of the coast ?


Human beings are sensitive to temperature. An average 9 degree F or 5 degree C increase in Temperature ... might be good for the Air Conditioning manufacturers.

We already know what that kind of heat does. It means the hottest days get hotter, which tends to kill people in Europe & India.


It's not that Climate Change is bad. It's that we've built our entire civilization & life-style (including indebtedness) assuming a very static Climate.

And the Climate ain't so static.

Lyfespan said:

it tangential, how many variables do you think could possible be affected, by saline levels in the oceans?

Click to expand...

Lyfespan said:

yes those are some of the life variables affected, frightening to think about how much oxygen comes from the ocean flora.

another scary fact is that salt helps control the weather

Click to expand...

bingo.
the poles are cathode and anode
the electric fields being fed into these, produce currents in the oceans (Atlantic gyres and Pacific gyres).
these currents (moving water) are affected by the salinity of the oceans waters, and fresh water dilution reduces the capability of the electric currents connecting (fresh water ((sweet)) is less conducting than saline).
therefore the ocean currents slow and warm.
with water locked into ice the salinity increases and the flow accelerates.


i've witnessed this circulation when doing electrolysis in making colloidal silver, and is partially why i've included so much information about electric potential and its effect on our system.


the whole climate debate requires multidisciplinary research, not some mandated source of study proffered by the IPCC paid advertisement.


the devil is the details.



here is an amazing article on energy from salt and fresh water diffusion:


Clean energy? Researchers develop technology to harness power from freshwater and seawater

Researchers have developed a cheap technology that could become a major source of renewable energy in the future.
Stanford University scientists have tested a prototype of a battery that could tap into the mix of salty seawater and freshwater -- known as "blue energy" -- at wastewater treatments plants. Globally, according to the scholars, the recoverable energy from coastal wastewater treatment plants is about 18 gigawatts, which would be enough to power 1,700 homes for a full year.
“Blue energy is an immense and untapped source of renewable energy,” said study coauthor Kristian Dubrawski, a postdoctoral scholar in civil and environmental engineering at Stanford, in a statement. “Our battery is a major step toward practically capturing that energy without membranes, moving parts or energy input.”

As the researchers explain in their paper, they monitored the battery prototype's energy production while flushing it with wastewater effluent from the Palo Alto Regional Water Quality Control Plant and seawater collected nearby from Half Moon Bay. The battery materials maintained 97 percent effectiveness in capturing the salinity gradient energy, according to Stanford University.
Wastewater treatment plants are known to be energy-intensive and vulnerable to power grid shutdowns which have happened in California amid its wildfire crisis; however, as the researchers note, making them energy independent would cut down on emissions and free them from potential blackouts.
According to the researchers, the process of capturing "blue energy" releases sodium and chloride ions from the battery's electrodes into the solution, making a current flow from one electrode to another; after that, a quick exchange of wastewater effluent with seawater leads the electrode to reincorporate sodium and chloride ions and reverse the current flow.
Energy gets recovered during the freshwater and seawater flushes, with no upfront investment or charging required. However, the researchers cautioned that the concept needs to be tested more.
“It is a scientifically elegant solution to a complex problem,” Dubrawski said. “It needs to be tested at scale, and it doesn’t address the challenge of tapping blue energy at the global scale – rivers running into the ocean – but it is a good starting point that could spur these advances.”

Charge-Free Mixing Entropy Battery Enabled by Low-Cost Electrode Materials

• Meng Ye
• Mauro Pasta
• Xing Xie
• Kristian L. Dubrawski
• Jianqaio Xu
• Chong Liu
• Yi Cui*
• Craig S. Criddle*

Cite This:ACS Omega20194711785-11790
Publication Date:July 8, 2019
https://doi.org/10.1021/acsomega.9b00863
Copyright © 2019 American Chemical Society
Supporting Info (1)»Supporting Information


ACS Omega

Abstract



Salinity gradients are a vast and untapped energy resource. For every cubic meter of freshwater that mixes with seawater, approximately 0.65 kW h of theoretically recoverable energy is lost. For coastal wastewater treatment plants that discharge to the ocean, this energy, if recovered, could power the plant. The mixing entropy battery (MEB) uses battery electrodes to convert salinity gradient energy into electricity in a four-step process: (1) freshwater exchange; (2) charging in freshwater; (3) seawater exchange; and (4) discharging in seawater. Previously, we demonstrated a proof of concept, but with electrode materials that required an energy investment during the charging step. Here, we introduce a charge-free MEB with low-cost electrodes: Prussian Blue (PB) and polypyrrole (PPy). Importantly, this MEB requires no energy investment, and the electrode materials are stable with repeated cycling. The MEB equipped with PB and PPy achieved high voltage ratios (actual voltages obtained divided by the theoretical voltages) of 89.5% in wastewater effluent and 97.6% in seawater, with over 93% capacity retention after 50 cycles of operation and 97–99% over 150 cycles with a polyvinyl alcohol/sulfosuccinic acid (PVA/SSA) coating on the PB electrode.


https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsomega.9b00863

trichrider said:

bingo.
the poles are cathode and anode
the electric fields being fed into these, produce currents in the oceans (Atlantic gyres and Pacific gyres).
these currents (moving water) are affected by the salinity of the oceans waters, and fresh water dilution reduces the capability of the electric currents connecting (fresh water ((sweet)) is less conducting than saline).
therefore the ocean currents slow and warm.
with water locked into ice the salinity increases and the flow accelerates.


i've witnessed this circulation when doing electrolysis in making colloidal silver, and is partially why i've included so much information about electric potential and its effect on our system.


the whole climate debate requires multidisciplinary research, not some mandated source of study proffered by the IPCC paid advertisement.


the devil is the details.
....snip....

Click to expand...

I call bullshit. Obviously you failed high school physics, if you wnt at all.

Electricity, or a magnetic field as you're implying, most certainly does not drive a current. It moves fuckall.


The currents are driven by the rotation of the earth and by wind. Nothing else.

Quit posting stupid shit.
The devil is indeed in the details.

Article in the Anchorage Daily News, similar to igrowone's post, states that 11 million tons of SURFACE ice in Greenland made its way into the ocean in ONE day.

In the grand scheme of things, with water weighing what it does, and this being one day, that doesn't break the proverbial bank. But rack up that rate of surface melt over the course of months, or a good portion of the year, and I'd wager fairly large that a noteworthy rise in sea-level, as well as rapid introduction to the water and air of a number of previously trapped materials, both become issues to contend with.

Maybe time to buy a bigger boat, if I might be that much closer to the water.

Meanwhile, while commenting as a bystander in State politics last night, with no membership to any party involved, I got threatened with being put on a list by some bone-head idjit who thought I was new to the game of political action, easily intimidated, etc. Like this was my first dance, and I'd be shaken...

Humanity's folly just never seems to deprive one of cynical sources of humor.

Or, as Arlo Guthrie said to a live audience once, maybe twice; "There's just too many things these days that have no other apparent purpose than to put a smile on your face."

TychoMonolyth said:

I call bullshit. Obviously you failed high school physics, if you wnt at all.

Electricity, or a magnetic field as you're implying, most certainly does not drive a current. It moves fuckall.


The currents are driven by the rotation of the earth and by wind. Nothing else.

Quit posting stupid shit.
The devil is indeed in the details.

Click to expand...

try this experiment at home then.
take a cup of water saturated with salt and a wallwart(battery charger) and two nails.
connect the two leads of the charger to the two nails and insert the nails on opposite sides of the cup of water.
apply voltage and see if the water doesn't start moving.
it helps to have two different nails



Electric fields move water droplets

26 Jul 2005 Belle Dumé

It is usually a good idea to keep water away from electrical equipment but researchers in Japan have discovered a new effect by breaking this rule. Masahide Gunji and Masao Washizu of the University of Tokyo have shown that electric fields can be used to move water droplets around a solid surface. Their work could lead to new ways to perform chemistry experiments much faster than is possible at present (J. Phys. D38 2417).

Figure 1 The Japanese team began by making a pair of parallel-strip electrodes on a glass substrate that had been covered by a thin electrically insulating hydrophobic layer and then placing a water droplet on the surface (figure 1). The droplet, which had a volume of between about 1 nanolitre and 1 microlitre, adopted an almost spherical shape due to a combination of surface tension and wetting effects.

Figure 2
To their surprise, the team found that the droplet began moving at speeds of up to 10 centimetres per second when a voltage was applied across the electrodes (figure 2). The initial direction of motion was unpredictable and the droplet continued to move until it reached the edge of the device or the voltage was switched off. Moreover, when the electrodes were made into the shape of a racetrack, the droplet kept travelling around the track (figure 3).

Figure 3
This motion came as a surprise because the electrodes used in the experiment create a uniform electric field along their length, so there is no energy gradient to move the droplets. According to Gunji and Washizu, the motion is “self-propelling” (figure 4). “The droplet leaves behind a moisture layer on the substrate surface, which shields the trailing edge of the droplet from the electric field,” says Washizu. “This produces an imbalance in the electrostatic force exerted on the droplet, which, in turn, provides the driving force for the droplet to move.”

Figure 4


https://physicsworld.com/a/electric-fields-move-water-droplets/


there is no stupid shit, only stupid people.

By the way, with surface melt, one serious accelerant of that melt involves transitioning from a white/snow or ice surface, to a surface of exposed rock, soil, etc., made up of darker materials.


Anyone who has been on extensive trails/cross-country freighting knows that once the darker earth underneath the snow's surface becomes exposed to the sun, the melt accelerates rapidly.

I suspect Greenland is about to get a refresher course in this.

TychoMonolyth said:

I call bullshit. Obviously you failed high school physics, if you wnt at all.

Electricity, or a magnetic field as you're implying, most certainly does not drive a current. It moves fuckall.


The currents are driven by the rotation of the earth and by wind. Nothing else.

Quit posting stupid shit.
The devil is indeed in the details.

Click to expand...

wow, way off base dude. if you knew anything about basic chemistry you would delete your comment.

are you really in belief that rotation of the earth and wind drive the oceans currents? if so please go stand in a corner

you do still believe that the ocean contributes heavily to making the weather patterns, yes?

as far as physics well, it's looking like your in over your head there too.


a quick simple search yielded this for you:

First, along with temperature, they directly affect seawater density (salty water is denser than freshwater) and therefore the circulation of ocean currents from the tropics to the poles. ... This process concentrates the salt in the water left behind in the North Atlantic, causing salinity to increase.

im not even going to post the link, this is high school knowledge.

now if youre trollin, i think you know what to go do

as well as disappearing albedo of sea ice melting and exposing the darker water beneath.

trichrider said:

try this experiment at home then.
take a cup of water saturated with salt and a wallwart(battery charger) and two nails.
connect the two leads of the charger to the two nails and insert the nails on opposite sides of the cup of water.
apply voltage and see if the water doesn't start moving.
it helps to have two different nails



Electric fields move water droplets

26 Jul 2005 Belle Dumé

It is usually a good idea to keep water away from electrical equipment but researchers in Japan have discovered a new effect by breaking this rule. Masahide Gunji and Masao Washizu of the University of Tokyo have shown that electric fields can be used to move water droplets around a solid surface. Their work could lead to new ways to perform chemistry experiments much faster than is possible at present (J. Phys. D38 2417).

[URL=https://physicsworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2005/07/0507141.jpg]View Image Figure 1 [/URL] The Japanese team began by making a pair of parallel-strip electrodes on a glass substrate that had been covered by a thin electrically insulating hydrophobic layer and then placing a water droplet on the surface (figure 1). The droplet, which had a volume of between about 1 nanolitre and 1 microlitre, adopted an almost spherical shape due to a combination of surface tension and wetting effects.
[URL=https://physicsworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2005/07/0507142.jpg]View Image[/URL]
Figure 2
To their surprise, the team found that the droplet began moving at speeds of up to 10 centimetres per second when a voltage was applied across the electrodes (figure 2). The initial direction of motion was unpredictable and the droplet continued to move until it reached the edge of the device or the voltage was switched off. Moreover, when the electrodes were made into the shape of a racetrack, the droplet kept travelling around the track (figure 3).
[URL=https://physicsworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2005/07/0507143.jpg]View Image[/URL]
Figure 3
This motion came as a surprise because the electrodes used in the experiment create a uniform electric field along their length, so there is no energy gradient to move the droplets. According to Gunji and Washizu, the motion is “self-propelling” (figure 4). “The droplet leaves behind a moisture layer on the substrate surface, which shields the trailing edge of the droplet from the electric field,” says Washizu. “This produces an imbalance in the electrostatic force exerted on the droplet, which, in turn, provides the driving force for the droplet to move.”
[URL=https://physicsworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2005/07/0507144.jpg]View Image[/URL]
Figure 4


https://physicsworld.com/a/electric-fields-move-water-droplets/


there is no stupid shit, only stupid people.

Click to expand...

don't even waste your time with dude, hhes not educated enough, and even if i posted Bill Nye telling him how things work, i doubt he would grasp it

trichrider said:

bingo.
the poles are cathode and anode
the electric fields being fed into these, produce currents in the oceans (Atlantic gyres and Pacific gyres).
these currents (moving water) are affected by the salinity of the oceans waters, and fresh water dilution reduces the capability of the electric currents connecting (fresh water ((sweet)) is less conducting than saline).
therefore the ocean currents slow and warm.
with water locked into ice the salinity increases and the flow accelerates.


i've witnessed this circulation when doing electrolysis in making colloidal silver, and is partially why i've included so much information about electric potential and its effect on our system.


the whole climate debate requires multidisciplinary research, not some mandated source of study proffered by the IPCC paid advertisement.


the devil is the details.



here is an amazing article on energy from salt and fresh water diffusion:


Clean energy? Researchers develop technology to harness power from freshwater and seawater

Researchers have developed a cheap technology that could become a major source of renewable energy in the future.
Stanford University scientists have tested a prototype of a battery that could tap into the mix of salty seawater and freshwater -- known as "blue energy" -- at wastewater treatments plants. Globally, according to the scholars, the recoverable energy from coastal wastewater treatment plants is about 18 gigawatts, which would be enough to power 1,700 homes for a full year.
“Blue energy is an immense and untapped source of renewable energy,” said study coauthor Kristian Dubrawski, a postdoctoral scholar in civil and environmental engineering at Stanford, in a statement. “Our battery is a major step toward practically capturing that energy without membranes, moving parts or energy input.”

As the researchers explain in their paper, they monitored the battery prototype's energy production while flushing it with wastewater effluent from the Palo Alto Regional Water Quality Control Plant and seawater collected nearby from Half Moon Bay. The battery materials maintained 97 percent effectiveness in capturing the salinity gradient energy, according to Stanford University.
Wastewater treatment plants are known to be energy-intensive and vulnerable to power grid shutdowns which have happened in California amid its wildfire crisis; however, as the researchers note, making them energy independent would cut down on emissions and free them from potential blackouts.
According to the researchers, the process of capturing "blue energy" releases sodium and chloride ions from the battery's electrodes into the solution, making a current flow from one electrode to another; after that, a quick exchange of wastewater effluent with seawater leads the electrode to reincorporate sodium and chloride ions and reverse the current flow.
Energy gets recovered during the freshwater and seawater flushes, with no upfront investment or charging required. However, the researchers cautioned that the concept needs to be tested more.
“It is a scientifically elegant solution to a complex problem,” Dubrawski said. “It needs to be tested at scale, and it doesn’t address the challenge of tapping blue energy at the global scale – rivers running into the ocean – but it is a good starting point that could spur these advances.”

Charge-Free Mixing Entropy Battery Enabled by Low-Cost Electrode Materials

• Meng Ye
• Mauro Pasta
• Xing Xie
• Kristian L. Dubrawski
• Jianqaio Xu
• Chong Liu
• Yi Cui*
• Craig S. Criddle*

Cite This:ACS Omega20194711785-11790
Publication Date:July 8, 2019
https://doi.org/10.1021/acsomega.9b00863
Copyright © 2019 American Chemical Society
Supporting Info (1)»Supporting Information


ACS Omega

Abstract

View Image

Salinity gradients are a vast and untapped energy resource. For every cubic meter of freshwater that mixes with seawater, approximately 0.65 kW h of theoretically recoverable energy is lost. For coastal wastewater treatment plants that discharge to the ocean, this energy, if recovered, could power the plant. The mixing entropy battery (MEB) uses battery electrodes to convert salinity gradient energy into electricity in a four-step process: (1) freshwater exchange; (2) charging in freshwater; (3) seawater exchange; and (4) discharging in seawater. Previously, we demonstrated a proof of concept, but with electrode materials that required an energy investment during the charging step. Here, we introduce a charge-free MEB with low-cost electrodes: Prussian Blue (PB) and polypyrrole (PPy). Importantly, this MEB requires no energy investment, and the electrode materials are stable with repeated cycling. The MEB equipped with PB and PPy achieved high voltage ratios (actual voltages obtained divided by the theoretical voltages) of 89.5% in wastewater effluent and 97.6% in seawater, with over 93% capacity retention after 50 cycles of operation and 97–99% over 150 cycles with a polyvinyl alcohol/sulfosuccinic acid (PVA/SSA) coating on the PB electrode.


https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsomega.9b00863

Click to expand...

totally agree this climate issue is way more than just a job for NOAA, they need more heads of investigation into the other contributing factors, specializing in these diverse fields

moose eater said:

By the way, with surface melt, one serious accelerant of that melt involves transitioning from a white/snow or ice surface, to a surface of exposed rock, soil, etc., made up of darker materials.


Anyone who has been on extensive trails/cross-country freighting knows that once the darker earth underneath the snow's surface becomes exposed to the sun, the melt accelerates rapidly.

I suspect Greenland is about to get a refresher course in this.

Click to expand...

yes, refraction and reflection of the surfaces has been a huge concern in the news. greenland is going crazy with melts and now lost a glacier due to warming. but where is all that moisture going?