Organic Booster: Alfalfa Mulch as a source of Triacontanol?

Emeraldo · Aug 6, 2017

FizzyB said:
Not exactly what you're looking for OP, but you should check out a product called Vitazyme. I primarily use it for it's organic hormones, including triacontanol. It's used in large scale agriculture, including orchards nearby where I live, and is very cost efficient. I apply 2.5 ml/gal as a root drench and 30-60 ml/gal as a foliar. It will cause your plants to uptake more nutrients so make sure they're well fed! It does cause a lot of stretching which indoor growers seem to be adverse to. It will also cause your buds to stretch out a bit if used later in flowering.

https://www.plantdesigns.com/vitazyme/

Hey Fizzy and thanks for joining the thread! So you've actually used Vitazyme on cannabis? When during the plant's life did you apply it? How much did you use and what does it cost? Looks like Custom Hydro Nutrients sells it for $74 a gallon.

Right, this thread isn't about a specific product. But you made me realize a broader goal of this thread could be just getting more information about what is going on -- and has been going on for some time -- in this area of Triacontanol, specifically for cannabis. So, yeah, this is what we are all doing: Learning.

If buying a product that works is a good way to go (it's a good product), then go for it. You get the good result, maybe without understanding how you did it. I personally want to understand how alfalfa and triacontanol work, and how to use alfalfa to the get that same result. Anyway, thanks for that link.

Here's what the plantdesign folks say about Vitazyme:

Vitazyme is a liquid concentrate microbially synthesized from plant materials, and then stabilized for long life. Powerful but natural biostimulants contained in the material greatly benefit plant growth and soil conditions to boost growth and profits for the grower.

Vitazyme is non-toxic. It is organic, safe and sustainable and has an array of active agents, including:

Known Ingredients in Vitazyme (all derived from natural materials):

Brassinosteroids 0.022mg/ml
1-triacontanol 0.33 ug/ml
Vitamin B1 (thiamin) 0.35 mg/100g
Vitamin B2 (riboflavin 0.25 mg/100g
Vitamin B6 0.15 mg/100g
Vitazyme is an all-natural liquid “biostimulant” for soil organisms and plants that contain certain biological activators, which are by-products of a proprietary fermentation process. These active agents include vitamins, enzymes, and other powerful but gentle growth stimulators such as B-vitamins, triacontanol, glycosides, and porphyrins.

Vitazyme, used within the context of a common-sense management system, will help the farmer overcome many of his production problems. While not a “magic bullet,” it helps the entire system work better.

:plant grow:

Emeraldo · Aug 6, 2017

jonhova said:
A lot of people talk about malted barley and malted grains for their amazing benefits. Clackamass coot and lumperdawgz on GC goes into detail on why malted barley is good.

Thanks jon, that is something for another discussion! Good to have you with this one.

ReikoX said:
Wow Emeraldo, that's a lot of useful information right there. Thanks. I've been meaning to start an alfalfa patch in my garden for a while now. This thread only motivates me further.

Sounds like you were right on using a few drops per gallon if made into a FPE. Sounds like superthrive to me.

Reiko, I am going to plant a little alfalfa too. I only takes a little, and it grows like a weed, not too much care needed. My only concern would be that the plant not be contaminated in any way, so taking from a wide open farm field is maybe ok, but you never know what the farm has used. So growing a small plot or even just a pot of alfalfa is easy enough for next year and guarantees its organic.

Microbeman said:
A search in ICMag produced these and a dozen more;

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=186605
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=5258403&postcount=1028
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=5191299&postcount=128
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4057799&postcount=3

Hey Microbeman! You're the guy weed need here! How's the micro-herd doing, anyway? :biggrin:

Looks like you've been following this kind of topic for a while, I will have to take a look at your links. Cheers!

Emeraldo · Aug 6, 2017

The field where I borrowed the alfalfa:

FizzyB · Aug 6, 2017

Emeraldo said:
Hey Fizzy and thanks for joining the thread! So you've actually used Vitazyme on cannabis? When during the plant's life did you apply it? How much did you use and what does it cost? Looks like Custom Hydro Nutrients sells it for $74 a gallon.

Right, this thread isn't about a specific product. But you made me realize a broader goal of this thread could be just getting more information about what is going on -- and has been going on for some time -- in this area of Triacontanol, specifically for cannabis. So, yeah, this is what we are all doing: Learning.

If buying a product that works is a good way to go (it's a good product), then go for it. You get the good result, maybe without understanding how you did it. I personally want to understand how alfalfa and triacontanol work, and how to use alfalfa to the get that same result. Anyway, thanks for that link.

Hey Emeraldo, I'm happy to answer any questions. I do use this product on cannabis on a commercial outdoor grow. In fact, I used it today. I was introduced to the product last year by someone who had been using it for quite some time. I more or less follow the instructions from the person who showed me the product, who supposedly talked at length with someone who works for the manufacturer. There's a few caveats to using this product so I'll try to keep it simple. I cannot say this is the ideal/only way to use it, but its how I apply it. The label is a bit tricky, best of luck to anyone trying to follow their instructions.

-Use every 2-4 weeks, or longer if desired.

-If applying as both a foliar spray and root drench (which I do) make sure to apply within 24 hours. Don't apply one way and wait a few days to apply again.

-Root drench at 2.5 ml/gal. Foliar spray at 30-60 ml/gal. Apply less (closer to 30ml/gal) if your plants aren't ready for a lot of new growth (stressed out, under fed, etc)

-Only apply to mature plants. This is contrary to their label/pamphlet but this is what I was instructed. The company sates you can apply anytime, from germination to bloom.

-Causes lots of stretching, indoor growers be warned. Will also give you elongated buds, personally I don't mind - it helps reduce mold/mildew issues outdoors.

-Company states it reduces nitrogen fertilizer needed, I haven't noticed it nor has the person who introduced the product to me.

I recently bought 2.5 gallons for around $200 after shipping/taxes, so $74 seems spot on. I think you can directly contact them to purchase although I've yet to do that. 1 gallon can be applied either 1,500 gallons as root drench or about 60-130 gallons foliar sprayed. Since you are applying on a 2+ week basis it goes a long way. I found a 8 OZ bottle on ebay for $12, that should last you long enough to test it out before spending $74 on a larger bottle. Hope this helped!

Emeraldo · Aug 6, 2017

Fizzy

Wow that sounds like strong stuff. But the caveats are all along the same lines as what is published about triacontanol:
- small amounts only work the "magic"
- too much will inhibit growth
- using on mature plants only is probably a safeguard against "too much"
- stretching because of growth stimulation
- maybe contributes to N toxicity -- why? because of the alfalfa that plantdesign . com did NOT list as one of their ingredients but which is their source of triacontanol?

On that last question, let's look at what plantdesign says about Vitazyme's ingredients:

Vitazyme is an all-natural liquid “biostimulant” for soil organisms and plants that contain certain biological activators, which are by-products of a proprietary fermentation process. These active agents include vitamins, enzymes, and other powerful but gentle growth stimulators such as B-vitamins, triacontanol, glycosides, and porphyrins.

No mention here about alfalfa. Just general phrases ("certain biological activators", "powerful but gentle growth stimulators" such as... [a list of several candidates], that do not reveal what it really is they used. It is of course "a proprietary fermentation process", because any mixture can be proprietary even if it is made up of the most common materials arranged in a certain way, allowing the maker to call it a trade secret.

Could it be that plantdesign.com has developed a way of fermenting a tea from alfalfa?

btw there is a major thread, very much worth the read, on the now closed-down site Cannabis World dealing with the topic if alfalfa + triacontanol:
https://cannabisworld.com/index.php?topic=885.0

The OP writes:

Triacontanol...Super Growth 30-60% increace
« on: March 17, 2002, 11:29 am »
I have always entertained the idea of the use of Alfalfa meal (3-1-2) in my soil or to make a tea out of so I took the plunge and man it makes a difference. If you are unsure of this chemical do a google search on the subject and you will be sold hands down.
There are 46 posts on the subject from Doctors of horticulture from major universities and the one that sold me was where it stated that super thrive contained this chemical and the use of it dates back to the early 1900's. Corn farmers use this to increase crop production. No wonder my plants grew so well back in Indiana corn fields where I learned to grow!!!
If any of you want to try this organic wonder and have problems finding it in your area PM me. Not everyone has a feed store in their area. and 50lb bag goes a long way so let me know and we will work something out. Happy growing!!!! Peace!!!
------------------
IonicBigBud

Ionic later writes (on page two of the thread):

Katmandu...being that I ran hydro for a while I understand the importance of the 5.6 ph balance so that plants get max up take of nutes and ferts. This is exactly what Alfalfa meal does and why it will burn your roots if you are not careful. Tea seems to be the most immediate form to jazz up your plants or a slower way is a top dressing of 1 cup per 3 gal of soil. As to answer your question an 15 gal of soil as a mix 3-4 cups of pellets per (25 liter or 10 gal of soil) add your bone meal ,worm poop and all the extra goodies and then wet the soil and let sit for 2 -3 weeks and stir every couple of days. You will need to ph your soil before adding any plant life to it.
Thus I opted to use the tea 4 times during the life of the plant.

IonicBB in a still later post (also on page two of the thread) that the Superthrive label gives a clue, like plantdesign has done, but does not tell you what their active ingredient or plant source for that ingredient is:

Triacontanol...Super Growth 30-60% increace
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2002, 11:41 pm »
If you go to www.google.com and enter the word Triacontanol and then go to page 2 of the 46 listed about the 4th post down It reads...Superthrive, the secret ingredient is Triacontanol? Now if you look up thepage will be missing so I kept reading additional posts and one gave the breakdown in 3 chemical parts which is listed on the superthrive bottle. When these parts are combined they make up Triacontanol!!!! Most people do not share trade secrets and do their best to hide them under fancy names. As soomn as I find that post again I will post it. This post was intended was originally intended for those who are serious about perfecting their craft in horticulture and grow better. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO SMOKE OUT , THEN TO STROLL THROUGH CW WITH NOTHING BETTER TO DO THIS POST WILL NOT BENIFIT YOU IN THE LEAST. There is a lot of reading involved for experienced growers and that is a lot of work. NO FREE LUNCHES HERE. Doc and I have spent hours reading post after post on this subject along with a few others that I have recieved PM's from saying they too are enjoying the info on this subject. Triacontanol is an organic matter and is included in numerous soil preps , Super Thrive, Etc. but you got to look for it and Doc even posted a site offering free cupons for 40 pound bags of soil prep. HOW MUCH MORE HELPFUL CAN ONE GET! There is another post on this by Ganjaden on page (2) that has soil available with Alfalfa meal in it and it is available at Walmart. It is a post on Super Soil and the link is WWW.Supersoil.com This is as simple as it gets. Happy growing !!!!!

FizzyB · Aug 6, 2017

The label says Vitazyme is derived from kelp but, like you said, it could easily involve different sources. I was under the impression that triacontanol can also be found elsewhere, other than alfalfa, such as kelp - although I'm not having any luck finding reliable information regarding that. I could easily be mistaken.

Regarding it's nitrogen content, I've found it to be negligible. Maybe this is due to its low application rates? Maybe it's providing more nitrogen than I'm aware of and I'm none the wiser. My plants are green and healthy so no issues/complaints here.

St. Phatty · Aug 7, 2017

I remember about 10 years ago at a community garden I belonged to.

The guy in the next garden space mulched his entire patch with alfalfa.

Then he un-joined the garden for medical reasons.

To figure out what he had going, I spent about 15 minutes just looking at his work.

It really was awesome. The animals just plain loved the environment. It was like, instant oasis. Salamanders earthworms bugs etc.

I'm sure they all poop useful manures & castings with lots of available NPK etc.

Emeraldo · Aug 7, 2017

Microbeman said:
A search in ICMag produced these and a dozen more;

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=186605
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=5258403&postcount=1028
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=5191299&postcount=128
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4057799&postcount=3

Hi Microbeman, I've read all the links you sent, thank you! What were your search terms? Not much there, really. No offense, but it is mostly just general talk, not much substance. Yes, there is discussion here and elsewhere on the web about alfalfa + triacontanol, much of it is too general to help when you actually want to find out how to use it.

I searched "alfalfa + triacontanol" and there some threads that discuss it in passing. Here's one that offered a little know-how (post number 9): https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=344309

Doc has it right there: we need to investigate and experiment with it to get it "dialed in" for our grows.

But maybe there are growers here on icmag.com that will share their experiences in the following areas:

- does alfalfa mulch or tea, in your experience, stimulate bud growth?
- what varieties of alfalfa have high and low N, triacontanol content?
- do in-flower alfalfa leaves & stems (not roots) have less N?
- how much fresh alfalfa, alfalfa meal, mulch or tea to use in soil?
- is one of those preferable over the others?
- what proportions of fresh to say a 5 gal pot of soil work, don't work?
- how much alfalfa meal is needed to stimulate growth?
- can you expect burn if more than a small amount is used?
- when in the season to mix it? into soil mix? later top dressing?
- how long does it take for the triacontanol to break down?

I'd be grateful for anyone's experience with any of these questions as I am at the beginning of this. Currently am in flower, using General Organics Biothrive (containing "alfalfa meal") and Bio Bud, both of which claim to be organic. I also have an old bottle of Canna Boost, but would rather not go there since it is unclear what, exactly, is in it.

Emeraldo · Aug 7, 2017

The Trouble with Alfalfa as Booster

The Trouble with Alfalfa as Booster

russjcan said:
Any N boost in flowering will trigger foliage growth. Watch out for that.....

As far as I know at this point, a main difficulty for me as an organic grower of cannabis in using alfalfa as a source of triacontanol to get a boost of bud growth in flowering is -- alfalfa also has a lot of Nitrogen.

So let's assume for a minute that the fresh chopped alfalfa plant will release triacontanol as the plant breaks down in my soil. If it is releasing a lot of N at the same time, this is something NOT to do during flowering, when we want the plant to use up its residual N. True, the plant still needs some N, but not a lot.

Would it be better to mix alfalfa into my organic soil when I prepare the soil before planting? That way the plant could use the strong dose of N that alfalfa supplies during vegetative, and the triacontanol present in alfalfa will also stimulate plant growth. Maybe the triacontanol then absorbed in the soil would -- depending on mobility -- remain in the soil or in the plant through flowering?

Alternatively, if applied during flowering, if there is a variety of alfalfa that produces less N, or a stage of its life where alfalfa has less N, maybe alfalfa could provide a bud boost without pushing the plant back into veg? Or maybe just skip alfalfa during flowering if it has too much N and go for triacontanol derived from beeswax?

Anyone please chime in if you have any experience or questions or have seen a useful discussion on this. It's great to have some exchange of thoughts here, teaming!

:woohoo:

DocTim420 · Aug 7, 2017

Investigate the breakdown/decomposition rate for both "dry" alfalfa and "green" alfalfa.

Once an organic input is "decomposed", it no longer consumes N--and the "mineralization process" (the breakdown of each element and compound to become "Plant Available") is the dominant activity (for awhile).

For strategic feeding, I used to do a lot of teas back in the day, so I guess one alternative is to brew a alfalfa tea and deliver it at "strategic times".

Me--I just incorporate alfalfa meal in my grow medium, a custom blend top dressing (mixture of seed and blood meals, bat guano and rock dust) and of course, I employ a few liquid enhancers that include, among many things...a bit of goodness sourced from alfalfa.

Once upon a time, I used Canna'$ Boo$t (foliar spray worked the best for me) until I had a very long discussion with GrowMore's formulator discussing their JumpStart "plant tonic".

Jump Start Helps plants thrive*Vitamins & Minerals* Super Concentrate* Accelerates Leaf, Stem and Root Growth Commercial Plant Growers Analysis Total Nitrogen (N) 0.10% 0.10% Water Soluble Organic Nitrogen Iron (Fe) 0.10% Copper (Cu) 0.02% Zinc (Zn) 0.05% Manganese (Mn) 0.05% Vitamin B complex B-1, B-2, B-3, B-5 & B-6, 17mg/ltr Amino Acids 1.7% Jump Start, a biological plant stimulator is designed to activate plant cell proliferation by utilizing the Rhizosphere microorganism pathway-mineral nutrient supply can strongly affect root growth morphology, distribution of root system and rhizosphere microorganism. -The unique combination of amino acids, micronutrient, vitamins and growth factors in the Jump Start formula can be used as seed treatment, soil application or foliar application. It has been known that certain bacteria can stimulate root growth considerably by production of Phytohormones. The effects of the unique combination of nutrients in Jump Start stimulate rhizosphere bacteria population, in turn enhancing root growth and improving nutrient acquisition. Jump Start can be used as seed treatment, young plant starter and soil application. Benefits of Stimulating Rhizosphere Micro Flora and Photo Hormone Production -Promotes division and leaf expansion while slowing leaf aging -Stimulates cell division and elongation in leaves and stems -Stimulates root formation and development and increases cell elongation. Micronutrient Benefits -Copper activates several enzyme systems and is essential for cell wall formation and protein synthesis. -Iron enhances oxygen transport within plants and is critical for chlorophyll formation. -Manganese increases nitrogen metabolism and carbohydrate utilization and improves nitrogen fixation. -Zinc increases root growth, cell division and cell elongation. Directions (Shake Before Using) "

Derived from Kelp, Barley, Alfalfa, Mushroom Compost, Bat Guano, Thiamine, Ascorbic Acid, Iron and Zinc mineral, EDTA Amino Acid.

It may not be OMRI/NOP approved...but it is not a bottle of synthetics, either...and a fraction of the cost of Boost (which allegedly contains Triacontanol too).

Just another alternative to arrive at the same destination.

Emeraldo · Aug 8, 2017

DocTim420 said:
Investigate the breakdown/decomposition rate for both "dry" alfalfa and "green" alfalfa.

Once an organic input is "decomposed", it no longer consumes N--and the "mineralization process" (the breakdown of each element and compound to become "Plant Available") is the dominant activity (for awhile).

For strategic feeding, I used to do a lot of teas back in the day, so I guess one alternative is to brew a alfalfa tea and deliver it at "strategic times".

Me--I just incorporate alfalfa meal in my grow medium, a custom blend top dressing (mixture of seed and blood meals, bat guano and rock dust) and of course, I employ a few liquid enhancers that include, among many things...a bit of goodness sourced from alfalfa.

Once upon a time, I used Canna'$ Boo$t (foliar spray worked the best for me) until I had a very long discussion with GrowMore's formulator discussing their JumpStart "plant tonic".

[Jumpstart label info]

It may not be OMRI/NOP approved...but it is not a bottle of synthetics, either...and a fraction of the cost of Boost (which allegedly contains Triacontanol too).

Just another alternative to arrive at the same destination.

Thanks Doc for your post. Good to hear from you cuz you've done this, which is new to me. Sounds like the simplest way to go: alfalfa meal into the initial soil mix and then maybe a tea at strategic points like early flowering, or just an organic booster like Jumpstart.

I now realize that this is not the cutting edge topic. There has been talk of alfalfa being a source of triacontanol for some years now on this and other forums. Just a lack of specifics.

Does anyone have an alfalfa or other tea recipe they could share? Hopefully not a trade secret! :biggrin:

Am conducting some experiments in my herb garden with an alfalfa mulch right now. Will post more later.

DocTim420 · Aug 8, 2017

1-2 cups of alfalfa meal + 5 gallons of water and bubble it for a few days.

You can add carbs (blackstrap Molasses) and other stuff (EWC, peat, compost...) but then it won't be a green tea anymore...lol.

St. Phatty · Aug 8, 2017

A few months ago an older couple came over to buy some trees in pots.

As we were shooting the breeze it became obvious that they knew their gardening.

I was sort of honored that they would buy trees from me. I paid BLM about 15 cents each for bare-root evergreens, grew them out for a few years ... then these people give me $20 each :woohoo:

Anyway, the one thing they mentioned that made an impression was their "soup".

They suggested soaking part of the huge mess of star thistles, wild peas, etc. that I rake out of the yard, in a BIG bucket or 55 gallon drum. Just letting it sit & letting the water 'absorb the goodness'.

Then using that water on my preferred plants, e.g. the Pot plants.

It sure sounded like it would work, but I haven't tried it exactly their way yet.

Microbeman · Aug 9, 2017

clues of yesteryear

clues of yesteryear

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=33532
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=508276

igrowone · Sep 15, 2017

i've been using a simple molasses/alfalfa tea for a number of years
it's pretty good, but i believe alfalfa tea is a modest source of nitrogen, at least that's my experience
my next grow i'm thinking of putting something extra for nitrogen
curious on any opinions and experiences

ReikoX · Sep 15, 2017

igrowone said:
i've been using a simple molasses/alfalfa tea for a number of years
it's pretty good, but i believe alfalfa tea is a modest source of nitrogen, at least that's my experience
my next grow i'm thinking of putting something extra for nitrogen
curious on any opinions and experiences

Neem seed meal and/or kelp meal :biggrin:

igrowone · Sep 15, 2017

ReikoX said:
Neem seed meal and/or kelp meal

interesting about the neem, not one i was aware of
mostly i'm curious about alfalfa tea nitrogen content
i see many posts saying how hot in nitrogen it is
just isn't my experience, it's not 'hot' at all

Boyd Crowder · Sep 15, 2017

bro- i didnt reasd the whole thread because i have experience using alfalfa
i use it as a cover mulch
and as a stretch stopper
i malted a halfcup of alfafa in a bubbler then i rinsed and strained it, then blended it all up into a couple gallons of water to drench into the soil
i did this in the first week of flower and observed NO stretch - like none
the whole room just froze and stayed that size through the entire cycle
never again
i want my plants to fill their screens on the walls
anyways - yes it is defintiley a growth hormone and i dint really see any bogger flowers either fwiw

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Organic Booster: Alfalfa Mulch as a source of Triacontanol?

Emeraldo

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