ORGANIC VS INORGANIC. The great debate.

mushroombrew · Sep 27, 2017

Cannabologist said:
Tough love is tough! Sometimes people need a kick in the butt to get their head screwed back on straight.

Which is what I had said before ie. "why does this pot taste so bad"/"taste like that?"
"Because that's how it tastes, which is harsh and not good, and burning on your throat. Don't expect that to ever change no matter how much you rob your plant of nutrients at the end of it's life cycle."

They aren't shit but they also aren't smooth UNLESS they actually are... Which is unless you selected clones from seed that are, or was given one that is

I been growing the same shit since before I started posting on these forums, and it hasn't been any different in any real regard.

All the factors that people say are the most important (flush like this for XYZ days in this manner, cure like this for XYZ days in this manner, etc., etc), I've found are bullshit. And it makes sense too, because everyone you ask always has a different method or different opinion, and theirs is always of course best.

All the stuff they aren't telling you, they don't know, and don't focus on, that's the real shit to worry about and focus on. Feeding, lights, environment, and your genetics. We know these parameters, and they haven't changed for years now. But we want to ignore them in favor of something else.

If you have to flush to get smell to come out in your strains, you're probably not doing something properly (like burning the shit out of your plants with TOO much ferts, and thus you have to flush to remove some... Well course you aren't getting any taste, your plants are in a constant state of nutrient lockout from over fertilizing)... At least that'd be my opinion in regards as to what's going on and why you are incurring the results that you are.

Cause, that's another first one on me that I've ever heard rofl "you gotta flush your plants to get the smell/taste to come out/come back".. I mean.. Jesus... I gotta be honest with you, nobody has to or should have to do that... If you are getting burnt plant taste, you are doing something wrong, have harsh tasting plants, aren't trimming properly, etc., etc.

Ok I get what your saying. If your genetics don't taste good they never will. Agreed.

Well maybe I wasn't clear about the taste difference with flush. There is less chlorophyll in a flushed bud. The longer you flush the more pale it will get. I don't think chlorophyll tastes all that great.

So let me clarify. I could get the exact same taste with no flush and a longer cure.

Or I can flush two weeks and it is smooth and better than most at 8 days post harvest! Why would I want to cure for 30-40 days when I don't have to?

Why do we cure bud? To break down chlorophyll so it is not so harsh right?

Well I choose to reduce the chlorophyll by flushing and hardly need a cure for really smooth smoking flowers. Chlorophyll is the only thing I care about. I don't care what color the damn ash is if it tastes great and smokes smooth.

Weed in a jar don't pay the electric bill lol.

Douglas.Curtis · Sep 27, 2017

Overfertilization happens with both O and IO, just easier to avoid with IO hydro. When you know what you're doing.

Properly grown hydro requires what? 5 days to flush unused nutrients out? Properly, meaning we're not trying to flush out built up stuff which isn't going anywhere. Proper, meaning you're giving the plant only what it wants as it declines toward harvest.

OregonBorn · Sep 27, 2017

mushroombrew said:
"The fundamental process of nutrient absorption by plants is well established. Irrespective of whether nutrients originate from an organic or inorganic sources, plants are only capable of absorbing nutrients in certain forms. For example, nitrogen is only absorbed as nitrate (NO3-) ions or ammonium (NH4+) ions and potassium only as K+ ions. Thus, plants cannot distinguish between nutrients derived from organic and inorganic fertilizer sources"

https://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/what_organic_fertilizers_mean_to_plants_and_soil

I have a strong chemistry background. And I always believed the above statement.

Dunno why people are poo poo'ing this thread. Its a good topic, and one that I have been debating for many years now. People on weed threads seem to take this very seriously.

I learned in college that plants take up nutrients the same way whether they are O or IO. So I agree with the above statement. I have also been growing weed for more than 3 decades in soil (except I clone/root in hydro), and have grown both ways. I typically use a hybrid of both IO and O now, depending on what I have available. Cow manure, chicken manure, water soluble ferts like Miracle Grow or MG clones, (yes, I love the stuff), watered down human urine (old or new, does not matter), blood meal, bone meal, kelp meal, bat guano, hoof and horn meal (hard to find now), cottonseed meal, SuperPhosphate, rock phosphate, Osmocote, yadda yadda. Pretty much anything except fish meal, which attracts raccoons and flies.

Also as stated, organic means different things to different people, and in different contexts and applications. Organic labeling and certification is a joke IMO, as they allow things like Neem/aza, but not avid/abamectin. Abamectin is naturally produced my soil bacteria. Anyway, much hair splitting there. As I understand it, California is looking to certify some sort of organic labeling for weed grown commercially there.

Cannabologist · Sep 27, 2017

Curing is a process of extended drying. Some volatile compounds may cyclize to something similar, but not quite what it was before, slightly altering smell, but not really changing it. It aids in long term storage to ensure against mold.

I don't want pale bud that is burnt from being under or over fertilized and had to go through all these processes just to get somewhere. Fan leaves will/should fade naturally as the plant reaches senescence, but this won't, or shouldn't, affect the buds. During this time other colors may come out either naturally or from stress (like cold). Growers will sometimes/often use varying amounts of stress to induce resin production (well duh tell us something we don't know lol).

I don't really know why we cure bud. It is another extended step that to me, is truly unnecessary if other things are done properly. Curing can aid in storage, but if you are drying your bud right, and then put it in a jar with a humidity pack, it stays there and you're done. Perhaps it does help the flavor or smoothness of more harsh pot. I think more often than not it's a stray crappy leaf that is ruining buds (in addition to just the smoke itself being that way it is, coughy), because people just aren't careful or don't care. I know if I'm smoking it, which I am, I leave NO BULLSHIT on my buds. NONE.

I prefer a fresh bud once it's dry, and I don't like smoking anything older than 3 months. Bleh yuck! Looks, smells, and tastes stale often times.

People always want to make more work for themselves. No amount of drying or not drying or burping jars or doing some voodoo ever changed my bud, it's flavors, or did something so different from the prior harvest that was so noticeable it made me keep doing that every time, and now I tell everyone to that, other than getting your environment correct, using the best light you can, fertilizing properly, and genetics.

I think you're doing all these things man, and you already told us all the problems you should work on...

OregonBorn · Sep 27, 2017

mushroombrew said:
"For example, nitrogen is only absorbed as nitrate (NO3-) ions or ammonium (NH4+) ions and potassium only as K+ ions."

Also a correction has to be made (or added) to the above statement. According to my notes, plants can take up nitrogen in the form of ammonium, nitrate, and urea directly. Urea is ((NH2)2CO) and is electrically neutral.

Cannabologist · Sep 27, 2017

For the most part, the granular fertilizers often considered "organic" (ie. bone and blood meals, animal shits and other products, composts, ewc), are SLOW RELEASE, vs immediately available liquid fertilizers.

They even state this on all the labels - XYZ percent will be soluble, readily available for your plant to uptake, and the rest is slow release to be broken down over time. They simply assume you should know, oh XYZ % of this is immediately available, so the rest must be acted on over time. It takes some critical thought but most people just lack this.

What determines that break down rate? Many factors such as time, the nute source itself, heat, water, microbial activity, etc., etc.,

Thats it. Its that easy. You're making a tea, you are adding readily available salts and other components in that product that would have otherwise been broken down slowly over time. What you use determine what it does, obviously. Such as EWC tea is adding much more in terms of humates than say a brew of only kelp, though kelp has it's own nutrient stimulating properties, and adds other things to plants.....

This is why in real growing, real growers, ie. farmers and the agro industry, use the science of what we know plants want and need as well as bio stimulant products like kelp and composts to aid in nutrient absorption and uptake. But also, different people are using things for different reasons, for example there is a reason why big agro field farmers do certain things, and greenhouse growers do others.

OregonBorn · Sep 27, 2017

Old bud can be good if it is cured right. I have been cool curing weed in paper bags for 30 some odd years now. Main reason being that you have to dry the stems completely. Or they will most certainly rot on you in a jar after 6 months. Fast drying rarely removes all the stem moisture.

Other things also happen to weed over time. One big one is that THC degrades into CBN at a rate of about 10% for the first year. CBN is a mellowing cannabinoid and has been show to be as or even more effective than Rx sleeping pills. To each his or her own, but I like old cured weed myself. After about a year or if I have too much weed around, I usually turn a lot of my old weed into hash oil. Mainly for reducing the volume of my stash. I always have more weed growing.

mushroombrew · Sep 27, 2017

OregonBorn said:
Dunno why people are poo poo'ing this thread. Its a good topic, and one that I have been debating for many years now. People on weed threads seem to take this very seriously.

I learned in college that plants take up nutrients the same way whether they are O or IO. So I agree with the above statement. I have also been growing weed for more than 3 decades in soil (except I clone/root in hydro), and have grown both ways. I typically use a hybrid of both IO and O now, depending on what I have available. Cow manure, chicken manure, water soluble ferts like Miracle Grow or MG clones, (yes, I love the stuff), watered down human urine (old or new, does not matter), blood meal, bone meal, kelp meal, bat guano, hoof and horn meal (hard to find now), cottonseed meal, SuperPhosphate, rock phosphate, Osmocote, yadda yadda. Pretty much anything except fish meal, which attracts raccoons and flies.

Also as stated, organic means different things to different people, and in different contexts and applications. Organic labeling and certification is a joke IMO, as they allow things like Neem/aza, but not avid/abamectin. Abamectin is naturally produced my soil bacteria. Anyway, much hair splitting there. As I understand it, California is looking to certify some sort of organic labeling for weed grown commercially there.

It's nice to hear from a primarily soil grower who understands chemistry.
I find the staunch O only position a bit boring. As they are not always as O as they believe. I see bigger differences from media than I do O or IO.

The problem with cannabis related feeding and ferts is all the hype.
Illicit growers often had zero chemistry or horticultural knowledge beforehand. So they believed what the companies said.
"Bud enhancer" etc.
And now we have a whole culture of growers who's horticultural knowledge comes from magazine ads. Or Ads that look like an article.
Or what it said about the benefits of silicon on the damn label.

How much could you learn about human nutrition from looking through the GNC mag? Fuck all.

OregonBorn · Sep 27, 2017

Cannabologist said:
Don't listen or read ANYTHING on weed forums. Go to school (a REAL COLLEGE, preferably a conservative institution not run by crazy lefties. I know, its REALLY hard to do right now, I got lucky being on the cusp of this change, but there still are good schools out there), or learn from a REAL PRO. Not dumb hippies who get lucky using PLANT SCIENCE, FEEDING FERTILIZER SALTS TO THEIR PLANTS, and calling it "organic maaannnnn"... Without having ANY clue what they are babbling about, because they read shit in high times, off weed forums, and on youtube.

You're feeding salts to your plants, period. You don't feed your plants, you will get deficiencies and grow crappy pot.

Good rant. I have debated the 'salt' thing to death on forums to the point that I rarely debate about this shit any more. But then, I went to a good university... well, one of them anyway. I also have a cert in horticulture from a guru from UC Davis ag school. I have also grown plants professionally.

mushroombrew · Sep 27, 2017

Cannabologist said:
Curing is a process of extended drying. Some volatile compounds may cyclize to something similar, but not quite what it was before, slightly altering smell, but not really changing it. It aids in long term storage to ensure against mold.

I don't want pale bud that is burnt from being under or over fertilized and had to go through all these processes just to get somewhere. Fan leaves will/should fade naturally as the plant reaches senescence, but this won't, or shouldn't, affect the buds. During this time other colors may come out either naturally or from stress (like cold). Growers will sometimes/often use varying amounts of stress to induce resin production (well duh tell us something we don't know lol).

I don't really know why we cure bud. It is another extended step that to me, is truly unnecessary if other things are done properly. Curing can aid in storage, but if you are drying your bud right, and then put it in a jar with a humidity pack, it stays there and you're done. Perhaps it does help the flavor or smoothness of more harsh pot. I think more often than not it's a stray crappy leaf that is ruining buds (in addition to just the smoke itself being that way it is, coughy), because people just aren't careful or don't care. I know if I'm smoking it, which I am, I leave NO BULLSHIT on my buds. NONE.

I prefer a fresh bud once it's dry, and I don't like smoking anything older than 3 months. Bleh yuck! Looks, smells, and tastes stale often times.

People always want to make more work for themselves. No amount of drying or not drying or burping jars or doing some voodoo ever changed my bud, it's flavors, or did something so different from the prior harvest that was so noticeable it made me keep doing that every time, and now I tell everyone to that, other than getting your environment correct, using the best light you can, fertilizing properly, and genetics.

I think you're doing all these things man, and you already told us all the problems you should work on...

Go ahead and smoke all the non flushed un cured bud you like mate!
LOL!!

My palate is different to yours. I do what pleases mine.

OregonBorn · Sep 27, 2017

Well to get my bachelors degree I had to take a lot of college chemistry. And I have the certs and I have been growing weed for a long time. All types of ferts have their places. And it depends on what you are growing. I have a lot of experience in growing as a hobby and professionally, including roses, orchids, cane berries, vintage grapes (Pinot Noir, I have a vineyard of that in Southern Oregon), bamboo, and pasture (grass) management, as well as forest stand management.

With most plants I can tell what the deficiencies are just by looking at them. Old leaves yellow? It is almost always nitrogen deficient. Because nitrogen is highly mobile in plants, so they move it from old to new leaves. New leaves yellow? Typically that is iron deficiency, especially in alkaline soils. Iron is fixed in plant leaves. Alkaline soil also binds up the iron in soil so it is not available to plant roots, so you need to use chelated iron in alkaline (AKA: sweet) soils. A similar problem exists in acidic soils with phosphate availability.

And yes, the fertilizer (and soil) hype is not just in growing Cannabis. It goes well beyond into roses, orchids, and African violets. Funny thing is, people do not know how to even read NPK labels. I was at some outlet store and on the shelf was plant food, something like 10-10-10 for garden plants in a green bottle, for $4. Right next to it was a 10-10-10 in a blue bottle for 'house plants' for $5. Then next to that was a 10-10-10 for African Violets in a purple bottle, for $6.

mushroombrew said:
It's nice to hear from a primarily soil grower who understands chemistry.
I find the staunch O only position a bit boring. As they are not always as O as they believe. I see bigger differences from media than I do O or IO.

The problem with cannabis related feeding and ferts is all the hype.
Illicit growers often had zero chemistry or horticultural knowledge beforehand. So they believed what the companies said.
"Bud enhancer" etc.
And now we have a whole culture of growers who's horticultural knowledge comes from magazine ads. Or Ads that look like an article.
Or what it said about the benefits of silicon on the damn label.

How much could you learn about human nutrition from looking through the GNC mag? Fuck all.

OregonBorn · Sep 27, 2017

I do not flush my weed either. I find that to be a rather nonsensical thing to do. I stop fertilizing my plants two weeks before harvesting, but that is not flushing. Never saw any need for any flushing, and my weed is always prime. I grow better weed than I can buy around here in most, but not all cases. Also flushing will only remove the water soluble compounds in the soil, and not all soil nutrients as is commonly stated. And it also depends on how deep your roots are in the soil, what the soil pH is, and how well your soil drains.

I also read about how synthetic ferts leaves a chemical taste in bud. What a load of BS that is. Actually no, BS is good stuff. What a lot of hot air that is. I mean, if you fertilize with BS, does your bud taste like BS? Terpenes are made by the plant from compounding and combining in different ways a base molecule, isoprene, which is C5H8. They do not absorb terpenes from the soil. But in the old days when we started planting weed among pine trees in NorCal, people thought that the plants 'picked up' the pine scent from the nearby pine trees. However, in reality Mexican weed (which was the majority of what we grew from seed early on the 1970s) is typically high in pinene, whether you grow it around pine trees or not. As someone said above, a lot of this stuff is purely genetic.

OregonBorn · Sep 27, 2017

Well, my posts should get a lot of people here screaming. They always do on plant and MEN type forums.

OregonBorn · Sep 27, 2017

Another troll come and gone. And life goes on.

mushroombrew · Sep 27, 2017

I reduce tds to 25% for the last two weeks. I like my product better that way in my system with my nutes... get it?
I tried both ways with my current nutes and it works better for me. I have lost count of how many field planted HI trees that were not flushed.
It made no difference with them

Today it does. Simple. Do what works for you. While listening to the opinions of others because you may be able to improve your game. I am not done learning just yet.

And yes Mr.Skittles I am unstable alright! I have spent the last 25yrs in an artificial indoor environment. Strange light frequencies. My carcardian rythem has gone awry.

mushroombrew · Sep 27, 2017

Maybe he meant you Oregonborn!

Scrappy-doo · Sep 27, 2017

Yay another organic vs. chem debate thread! Let the incessant boasting, ego stroking, dick swinging, and pussy strutting commence!

In order for this to be the great debate on this amazing and productive topic, you're going to have to break the record number of pages of the many other threads on this very same topic. How many pages of back and forth bickering and flaming is that, you may ask?

https://www.icmag.com/modules/Find_Threads/index.php?stext=organic+vs

You're already in 4th place! :dance013:

mushroombrew · Sep 27, 2017

This thread just broke the "troll clean up speed" record. That I can say for sure.

I think there is no difference.

Whereas all the others were quite biased.

Thanks for the ranking info please keep us updated!!

Scrappy-doo · Sep 27, 2017

Thread like this is troll paradise. It's a good topic, but with big ego's on either side it always just goes round and round till everyone gets tired of arguing. All sorts of credentials and years of experience get flashed around, as if that's gonna convince someone who is certain they're right and you're wrong. Impossible to win this debate, it's all subjective. Coke vs Pepsi prove to me which is better. It's fun to watch though hehe.

I started growing in soil with chems, then switched to hydro, then coco, now I'm back to soil but it's organic this time. Who knows what's next. I like organic soil mostly just because for me it's less work and harder to fuck it up. That's what I tell myself at least.

:tiphat:

Only Ornamental · Sep 27, 2017

Organic is more than just nutrients.
What many of you only look at it simply NPK etc. and, if done right, there's no difference between IO and O cause the plants will get exactly the same. But compost is more than essential nutrients

.
The big difference is in everything else. Secondary plant constituents and microbes have direct and indirect effects on plants, cause them to react with growth or defence responses, express different proteins and secondary plant constituents such as terpenes and flavonoids. People who grow organic often grow outdoors where weather, climate, pests etc. influence/stress the plants causing them to deviate from the perfect pure grow they would encounter in a sterile environment.
It's less about "organic" and more about things like ecological pest management, systemic acquired resistance and induced systemic resistance. During a healthy crop cycle, you probably won't notice much of a difference between IO and O or even see that the O plants grow somewhat less quickly but once disease hits... and that's where IO and O differ greatly. Organic farming anticipates troubles and prepares the plants before shit happens whereas IO or traditional farming either applies agrochemicals and pesticides at fixed intervals "just in case" or more and more do integrated crop management where they apply said agrochemicals and pesticides only when the crops start getting sick. These last years, biostimulants and natural crop fortification increases because it took agriculture maybe a century to realise that old practices aren't always outdated.
Gotta go, sorry....

ORGANIC VS INORGANIC. The great debate.

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