OPINIONS WANTED...new to Vert, building 3 x 3 room.

As the title says i am new to Vert and building a 42"w x 36"d x 75"h tapering to 38"h room under my basement stairs that will hopefully produce enough to free me from the MicroSOG i've been running for the last 2 years. Growing media/nutes will either be Coco/perlite mix using KISS method or LC's#1 ammended with guanos that i've had cooking for about 6mo now. I need to pull a LB per cycle(hopin for 16wks clone/veg/flower). Heres my questions:

1. Vscrog or tree? I'm thinking Vscrog the left and back wall and then two short indica bushes on the right side where the ceiling is only 38"h. im thinkin the veg time for the Vscrog will be shorter than veggin in a tree. Is this assumption correct? Is is enough to matter? ie are we talkin a week or a month?

2. Can this be done with a single 400w? I already have one, i'll just pick up another if 400w isnt enough for this space to pull a LB. If a second bulb is needed, should i run a vertical stack or run em at the same height accross the depth of the room?

3. The Gridwall im planning on using for Vscroggin is made out of welded 1/4" steel rod powdercoated black. I'm a lil concerned that it may build and hold heat from the infrared emmitted by ths HPS. Anybody ever scrog with heavy gauge steel wire like this?

4. I've got a 160cfm fan and a carbon filter to hang and exhaust through the wall into the bathroom/laundry/mechanicals room. I was thinking about running the exhaust into the return side of my ac/furnace to help muffle the fan. The bathroom part of this room is frequented by guests and the return plenum is literally just on the other side of the wall from the room. Any thoughts?


Here's some pics of the room and the Scrog material. A locking door will be hung flush with the opening. Trimmed and stained to match the rest of the house. Appropriate fan(s) will be placed on the floor blowing up at the bulbs in the typical fashion.

3x3 sounds about right for a bare 400w. (44.44w/sq. ft.)

I doubt you'll be able to hang it that high off the ground though.

Anti said:

I doubt you'll be able to hang it that high off the ground though.

Click to expand...

Hey Anti, good to see ya here. Your input is always welcome. Now, why do ya think i'll have trouble hanging that 400w bulb 3' or so off the floor? I'm perplexed.....

311devon said:

Hey Anti, good to see ya here. Your input is always welcome. Now, why do ya think i'll have trouble hanging that 400w bulb 3' or so off the floor? I'm perplexed.....

Click to expand...

Ok. I guess the size of the "bulb" in the picture makes the space look a lot taller than it really is. I think 3' is probably the absolute limit of height you're gonna want. Like, if you keep the light 2' off the ground and keep all your plants 3' tall (vscrog them sideways instead of up?)

I am not speaking from my thousands of grows under HID. I am merely speaking from my understanding of the 50w rule and the inverse square law.

Hopefully one of the experts will be along in a few moments to sort it out, but I always do it like this:

3'x3' = 9 sq ft. 400w/9 = 44.44w per sq. ft.

at 3 ft. from bulb you have 16 times less penetration than you do at 1 ft. At 4ft, it'd be 32 times less. At a certain point, you decrease your return by increasing your size.

With a 400w bulb i'd think that you'd do best with all your walls covered in mesh up to about 3' high and then filling in that mesh as well as you can with the light somewhere around 2ft off the floor.

In my current cab (yet untested) I built it so that the plants will never be further than 2ft from the bulb.

Even if your mesh only goes around at a height of 3' tall that's 9 sq. ft per wall x 4 = 36 sq ft of "canopy" vs the 9 sq. ft you'd have if it were a horizontal grow.

This is a pic of my setup. 3 x 3 x 42". With the bulb about where it is in the pic, and plants with tops about 3" from ceiling, I get very good lightspread over the entire plant. I just trim anything that is below the height of my fan. Works well.

It almost looks like you could take the very top of the space and use that for your mechanicals...IE ballast, fans, filter etc.

Anti said:

Ok. I guess the size of the "bulb" in the picture makes the space look a lot taller than it really is. I think 3' is probably the absolute limit of height you're gonna want. Like, if you keep the light 2' off the ground and keep all your plants 3' tall (vscrog them sideways instead of up?)

I am not speaking from my thousands of grows under HID. I am merely speaking from my understanding of the 50w rule and the inverse square law.

Hopefully one of the experts will be along in a few moments to sort it out, but I always do it like this:

3'x3' = 9 sq ft. 400w/9 = 44.44w per sq. ft.

at 3 ft. from bulb you have 16 times less penetration than you do at 1 ft. At 4ft, it'd be 32 times less. At a certain point, you decrease your return by increasing your size.

With a 400w bulb i'd think that you'd do best with all your walls covered in mesh up to about 3' high and then filling in that mesh as well as you can with the light somewhere around 2ft off the floor.

In my current cab (yet untested) I built it so that the plants will never be further than 2ft from the bulb.

Even if your mesh only goes around at a height of 3' tall that's 9 sq. ft per wall x 4 = 36 sq ft of "canopy" vs the 9 sq. ft you'd have if it were a horizontal grow.

Click to expand...

Thanks for bringing up watts/ft. I noticed you were calculating for a 3x3 as the title states. My space is actually 42" x 36", so we are really looking at 38.09w/sqft. So maybe I need another light in here. Like you, I will be running CMH lamps. Cooler temps, more balanced spectrum, seems like a no brainer to me.

With a two bulb system, my initial thoughts are to place the bulbs next to each other across the space with the left side bulb a lil higher so i can run the scrog higher up the walls that allow it. Thoughts on this staggered set up? At 76.19w/sqft do I need to worry about the distance the bottom left side of the room is from the bulbs?

While looking over your calculations i noticed a honest lil error. Unfortunately my room is only 3 sided as one side is going to be a door. Around 30sqft is what im thinking if i run the scrog up the two taller walls a foot or so higher.

Thank for your input once again Anti, as always, your posts generate more thought.

What kinda yields should i expect from 30sqft of Scrog? Maybe one of the resident vert experts could answer that for me?

growingcrazy said:

It almost looks like you could take the very top of the space and use that for your mechanicals...IE ballast, fans, filter etc.

Click to expand...

I agree 100%. Forgot to include that in the orginal post. How much are you yielding per cycle? how many plants are ya runnin?

How are you going to cool that space?

What are your goals?
-Maximize yield no matter what? 1# your goal?
-Plant count
-Budget?
-Simplicity?

I love vert, but a horizontal 600w with the length of the bulb parallel to your width would give you 57w/sq ft and you could yield a pound. Going vertical in that space would probably require more effort than it would be worth. That or maybe two 400s with the length parallel to your depth, but this would create more heat, be less energy efficient, and the yield might be less than a single 600.

catman said:

How are you going to cool that space?

I will be using the 160cfm fan i mentioned and the traditional fan(s) blowing on the bulbs. The 160 should give me two air changes per minute if my calculations are correct. This is in my basement. In the summer it stays in the high 60's when its 75 upstairs and thats with the vents closed. Im thinking i can more than ofset the heat gain down here by opening vents if needed.

What are your goals?

Lighten up the work load and keep my wife and i supplied. We can easily go through an ounce in a week.

-Maximize yield no matter what? 1# your goal?

Ultimately i would like to find two or three strains I could run together that would get me 1.5lbs per run once fully dialed in. This would keep us supplied and give me a little to share with my bros. Dunno if this is possible without running a SOG.

-Plant count?

I'm thinking one or two at the base of each grid. Run my indica strains on the shorter side of the room, hybrids on the back wall and the sativa's on the tall side. It would be very easy to add shelving and split the height of the room and run more plants if that route might be better. However part of the reason for this is to back off the workload without hydoponics.

-Budget?

Minimal. Gotta do it with the cheapest methods possible. I can fab anything outta metal or wood (part of my job) so throw any ideas ya got at me!

-Simplicity?

Want things as simple as possible. The less shit there is to fail, the better in my opnion. I chose KISS because my tap water ph's around 8.5-9 and the Maxibloom brings it down to acceptable levels. I check it maybe once every 6 mo. i'm sure I could yield a lil more if I were more precise about it but my girls are nice and happy and so am I, I hate adjusting ph, drives me bonkers.

I love vert, but a horizontal 600w with the length of the bulb parallel to your width would give you 57w/sq ft and you could yield a pound. Going vertical in that space would probably require more effort than it would be worth. That or maybe two 400s with the length parallel to your depth, but this would create more heat, be less energy efficient, and the yield might be less than a single 600.

Click to expand...

I mentioned running two 400's a couple posts up, lemme know what ya think about the staggerd bulb idea.

Thanks for your input...

311devon said:

I agree 100%. Forgot to include that in the orginal post. How much are you yielding per cycle? how many plants are ya runnin?

Click to expand...

I run 8 plants in a soil bed. I don't really have a yield per x amount of time due to running plants at all different ages. As they are ready...they get flowered and pulled when there done. I average 1.5 to 2oz per plant with the 400. It is plenty of light in that area.

Are you planning to run a cool tube setup or bare bulb?

I re-read your post again.

What strain do you plan to run? It will make a very large difference in how you plan to achieve your goal of a lb run.

You should have no problem with a 16 week start to finish, again fully strain dependent.

Once you pick a strain, then design your setup around that. Baseball bats have there way to grow, and so do more branchy plants.

311devon said:

I mentioned running two 400's a couple posts up, lemme know what ya think about the staggerd bulb idea.

Thanks for your input...

Click to expand...

How exactly do you plan to mount the fan and deal with exhaust though? I don't see any door so maybe you are thinking of just putting it at the top and blowing into the main room. If this is the case then you will need fans on the bottom blowing upwards like you mentioned either.

Or can you go through any of those walls?

Temps sound like they won't be an issue besides maybe being too cold, but ya still want to avoid mold.

You won't need to do SOG to meet your needs, but it might make things easier and more consistent. If that is the only space you have to veg and flower then you'll probably want to have more than 6 or so plants which is what I think you implied.

I don't think the screens will make things easier for ya, but I could be wrong. Sometimes we just get fixated on doing something a certain way because we have one perfect piece (the screens) of the puzzle.

I think two 400s horizontally would be a good way to do it cheaply although depending on where you shop, you could get a 600w dimmable ballast that you could turn the wattage down to 300w if 600 is too much. It would also keep things pretty simple. Either make it so you can adjust the height of the bulbs or permanently fix them and boost up your containers as needed.

Maybe you should try just the single 400 vertical as experiment and see how things go? Can just boost up the shorter plants.

growingcrazy said:

I run 8 plants in a soil bed. I don't really have a yield per x amount of time due to running plants at all different ages. As they are ready...they get flowered and pulled when there done. I average 1.5 to 2oz per plant with the 400. It is plenty of light in that area.

Are you planning to run a cool tube setup or bare bulb?

Click to expand...

Bare bulb(s)

growingcrazy said:

I re-read your post again.

What strain do you plant to run? It will make a very large difference in how you plan to achieve your goal of a lb run.

You should have no problem with a 16 week start to finish, again fully strain dependent.

Once you pick a strain, then design your setup around that. Baseball bats have there way to grow, and so do more branchy plants.

Click to expand...

Strains are in my sig that im gonna start with. The Wild Thai yields way better than you would think. Been wantin to let the Super Lemon Haze grow up and see what it does. i've also got some bubblegum, blueberry kush, and a unknown that did nice in my sog. All bagseed beans. Also have a Peruvian sativa landrace x LA Confidential cross and Northern Lights x Goo (i think thats what he said) that a bro did outdoors last year.

311devon said:

Thoughts on this staggered set up? At 76.19w/sqft do I need to worry about the distance the bottom left side of the room is from the bulbs?

While looking over your calculations i noticed a honest lil error. Unfortunately my room is only 3 sided as one side is going to be a door.

Click to expand...

I've been kicking this around throughout the day. Here's where I'm at. These are just ideas, feel free to do something else. I won't get all butt-hurt.

Anyway, i'm thinking something like Maj. Cottonmouth meets Pine Boy?

Pine Boy built a platform out of skateboard trucks & wheels that spins. You could put plants in a ring on the platform (so that you can rotate it to get to plants in the back) and then set it up in the center of the space. Put a ring of chicken wire around the bulbs with a 1-1.5' radius. Line the whole space with reflectix and put your exhaust & etc on a shelf at the top. If you wanna hang 2 bulbs, hang 'em stacked vertically inside the donut and put a fan in the center of your doughnut for the bulbs.

Then you can tie the plants to the screen and rotate the screen so you never even have to walk around inside the closet.

My other idea would be to build a shelf at the bottom of the door to the closet so that when the door swings open the plant would swing with it and then you wouldn't lose out on that 4th wall.

But I think the donut would be cooler and a better use of the vertical space.

The Major uses a 400w CMH at the bottom and a 1000w HPS at the top, but you could do 2 CMH or do 600 like Cat Man suggested.... or just the single 400 for a round and see how it goes?

I dunno. Just tossing out ideas. Maybe it'll spark something for someone.

Anti said:

I've been kicking this around throughout the day. Here's where I'm at. These are just ideas, feel free to do something else. I won't get all butt-hurt.

Anyway, i'm thinking something like Maj. Cottonmouth meets Pine Boy?

Pine boy built a platform out of skateboard trucks & wheels that spins. You could put plants in a ring on the platform (so that you can rotate it to get to plants in the back) and then set it up in the center of the space. Put a ring of chicken wire around the bulbs with a 1-1.5' radius. Line the whole space with reflectix and put your exhaust & etc on a shelf at the top. If you wanna hang 2 bulbs, hang 'em stacked vertically inside the donut and put a fan in the center of your doughnut for the bulbs.

Then you can tie the plants to the screen and rotate the screen so you never even have to walk around inside the closet.

My other idea would be to build a shelf at the bottom of the door to the closet so that when the door swings open the plant would swing with it and then you wouldn't lose out on that 4th wall.

But I think the donut would be cooler and a better use of the vertical space.

Click to expand...

Anti, once again, genius idea. The company i work for is where this grid came from. i can get pieces in all different widths. Connectors to make squares, hex's, octagons, or as many sides as you got time and patience to connect up. So now im thinking i build two platforms with castors and mount one half of a hex or octagon on either that way i can move them in and out without messing with the bulbs hanging in the center by clamshelling them around the bulbs. Ill have to do some figuring to see how many sides will give me the most footage with good light distribution. This will keep me outta that room and away from the UV that CMH is kicking off too...win win...thanks bro.....

Now maybe ill do it like a true american and put a 250 in each corner as well...light that bitch inside and out!

catman said:

How exactly do you plan to mount the fan and deal with exhaust though? I don't see any door so maybe you are thinking of just putting it at the top and blowing into the main room. If this is the case then you will need fans on the bottom blowing upwards like you mentioned either.

Or can you go through any of those walls?

Click to expand...

A door is being hung flush with the opening in about 2 hrs. I'll see if i can get pics up tonight.

I will be exhausting through the wall into the utility/bathroom/laundry room that is adjacent to this room. I may even tie it into the return side of my central heat/ ac since it is literally on the others side of the wall. Have to find out what kind of effects doing that would to the either system. Is there an echo in here?

A quick update for those following along. Things got crossed up between me and my bro with the pick up. Long story short, I have a door and all the stuff needed to frame it, taper it and and hang it but cant work on it till the weekend. My kid's gotta sleep.

In the meanwhile i've been playing with multi sided designs for a scrog tube lighted from the inside. I'm sad to report that even with 20 side so it is nearly circular it is almost 10sqft short of the 36sqft Anti calculated for a full perimeter Vscrog 36" high.

After many blunts and lots of brainstormin' with Sketchup, I think i have a solution. I'm thinkin build two platforms 18 x 32 x1 1/2 (two thicknesses of particleboard). I'll fully laminate them (since i work in laminates) to make em nearly waterproof and mount appropriate castors to make em mobile. The gridwall system we sell has hardware made to mount it to a base such as this. So I'll use it to mount the grid on three sides of each base. One section across the one 18" side, one across the 32" length and one across the other 18" edge, but this one i'm only gonna make the section of grid around 15" and then mirror that on the other base. I'll run it full height and taper it to fit the room as well. The short grid goes to the back of the room and creates a gap allowing me to roll either base with its Vscrog and pots past the bulb(s) and out of the room so i can work on it away from the HID's. If i run a second bulb a lil higher and baised to the left of the room a second gap can be cut in the grid.

Anybody see any pitfalls to this?

Cant wait to see what one my bonasi mothers, tranplanted into new digs and given a month (+/-) to veg, does up one of these grids!

IT'S ALIVE!!!

IT'S ALIVE!!!

Well, fellow jokers and tokers, its been 30 days since my last post and much has happened since then. So heres an update with some pics. Lemme know what ya think.

A door has been hung across the opening under the stairs.

Had a buddy of mine who gives me ground for my outdoor stuff come over and drop a pair of gfi's in for me.


A plywood mounting plate was installed leaving room on the right side of the wall its mounted on for exhaust ducting. Here it is with the first fan i tried (turned out to be a POS, more on that in a bit). Also pictured is the ballast and carbon filter that is now too small for the size fan Im using. Im just gonna use it till its spent and then upgrade.

After some test runs with the Eco-Plus Classic 4in fan(aka hunk o' shite), my temps were in the high 90's and it sounded like a porn queen had locked herself in there with the biggest vibrator youve ever seen. It was pulsing and oscilating like crazy. My 4yo was even asking me what that funny noise was coming from the basement! Not cool! Using the formula RedGreenery gives in his ventilation thread I was only gettin 90cfm of flow. My intake was 4 times the size of my exhaust and the only other restrictions in the system were the carbon filter and one 90 degree bend with about 10" of duct to punch it through the wall into the mechanical/bathroom room. Finding this to be unacceptable, i gave the dude at the 'dro shop a call and he agreed to take it back and let me pay him the difference on a Vortex. So for another 150 bones I said fuck the dumb shit and picked up a 6" Vortex and a Speedster to control it with. Temps are down to a reasonable 84 with lights on. I think this will improve when i get a bigger carbon filter, as it is the biggest restirction in the system by far now.

Here's a pic of the current setup with the Vortex. Just one 90 deg bend and enough duct to make it look like it goes into the backside of the return plenum of the central heat/air unit on the other side of the wall.



It intakes through the small closet with the louvered doors just to the right in the pictures. Five 4" elbows downturned toward the floor to control the light blasting outta them.




Bases for the grid were made with two thicknesses of particleboard glued and screwed together. Using castors was nixed in favor of furniture moving pads which i havent got yet. The grid was cut rectilinear as height would allow. I decided not to taper it once i realized cutting it diagonaly would produce a bunch of points that would need to be cut off. The grid is ziptied down to the bases at multiple points. Lightstop will be added to the door opening and trim will then get cut and hung. Blue tape is just temprary. CMH bulb is being ordered tomorrow. Heres what it looks like all together.

Any thoughts/ideas? Should i run 4 or 6 plants? Anubody wanna see a particular strain from my sig run first? It gonna be Afghan Kush on the right side and something else on the other.

edit: there is a third section of grid for the right side base, just took the pic before i put it on.

Looks great. You got a lot of work done.
Its pretty much half of my room...except the slope is on the other side. I think you'll be very happy with it.

Personally, I'd go with the fewer # of plants. I've lowered my plant #'s every run. It will be much easier to manage, especially if you are working with a stretchy strain (which is best for these setups , imo). And even tho I don't proctice it myself, I'd suggest a monocrop.

Good Luck bro