Any way I can do this? I want MORE air in DWC!

pftek · Feb 26, 2011

Okay so I have a DWC set up. Everyone keeps telling me I need MORE air. Air is the key they say...

So I currently have two DWC tubs. side by side. perpetual harvest.

These are built in tubs that CAN NOT be raised off the ground.

I was thinking of filling only 1 tub with water. and then having the water move from one tub to the other on a timer system. Like 3 times a day all the water would move from Tub A to Tub B and then vice versa.

Is there a way I can do this? Good Idea?

PUFFS-ENUFF · Feb 26, 2011

are you using air stones. if you need more air add another stone

FreezerBoy · Feb 26, 2011

Another stone won't add more air, it just cuts airflow per stone in half. Buy another pump.

Pumping back and forth is an unnecessary complication which could cause lower roots to die.

What you're describing is approaching an aero system. Yes, Aero out produces DWC but, is more prone to immediate catastrophic failure. A DWC with failed air pump will survive longer than an Aero with a failed water pump. You're increasing potential of failure with no increase in production.

pftek · Feb 26, 2011

FreezerBoy said:
Another stone won't add more air, it just cuts airflow per stone in half. Buy another pump.

Pumping back and forth is an unnecessary complication which could cause lower roots to die.

What you're describing is approaching an aero system. Yes, Aero out produces DWC but, is more prone to immediate catastrophic failure. A DWC with failed air pump will survive longer than an Aero with a failed water pump. You're increasing potential of failure with no increase in production.

Why would it cause lower roots to die? isn't the air good for them. Also, this is very similar to an Ebb and Flow isn't it?

FreezerBoy · Feb 26, 2011

They'll dry out without water. There's a whole method based on this called "air pruning" Roots that hit air outside the pot die. E&F uses a base of hydroton, rockwool or similar to maintain moisture in the roots. You're planning on removing said moisture for several hours.

Aero usually uses cycles of a few seconds to a few minutes, not several hours.

pftek · Feb 26, 2011

FreezerBoy said:
They'll dry out without water. There's a whole method based on this called "air pruning" Roots that hit air outside the pot die. E&F uses a base of hydroton, rockwool or similar to maintain moisture in the roots. You're planning on removing said moisture for several hours.

Aero usually uses cycles of a few seconds to a few minutes, not several hours.

ahhh... i seee. so the roots need to stay moist the whole time.

Do you think Ebb and Flow outperforms DWC?

angel4us · Feb 26, 2011

create a waterfall

create a waterfall

air stones will only add so much air ... if you want to really generate some dissolveed oxygen create a waterfall...since you stated you cant raise tubs can you pump water up at least 10 inches and let it uturn and fall back in resevoir -or- maybe a powerhead for aquariums-dual purpose adds air and keeps nutrients in bucket/tub moving key being good benificial bacteria like moving water ,bad stuff like stagnation....
in straight dwc 5 gallon buckets i always used two stones per bucket -each from seperate air pump so if a pump went out i would only be knocked down to 50 % air till bad pump/faulty stone is detected .......
i always changed stones half way through grow.....simply pull up till tension in roots and snip plastic and let first stone drop to be retreived after grow finished....feed new stone down through roots. \
...watch temps if you get to high your risking blue green algea -hydro herpes .it sucks.never get it out of that building..... peace

dwc stomps ebb and flow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FreezerBoy · Feb 26, 2011

Everything's a trade off. Increases in yield are offset by potential of disaster.

In order of production: (lowest to highest) E&F, DWC, Aero, Fogger.

Potential of disaster: (lowest to highest) E&F, DWC, Aero, Fogger.

If you're around every day, dangers are greatly reduced. If you're gone a lot, as I am, consider a safer, lower yielding method. A smaller plant that survives to harvest beats a larger plant that dies before harvest.

FreezerBoy · Feb 26, 2011

angel4us said:
air stones will only add so much air ... if you want to really generate some dissolveed oxygen create a waterfall...

Waterfalls are the most effective means of aeration. But, again, everything's a trade off. In this case the trade off is noise. Waterfalls are loud; Air stones are near silent.

If you can afford the space and noise, waterfalls are the answer. If you can afford noise but not space, open ended airtubes. If you can afford neither space or noise, go with airstones.

fireburner23 · Feb 28, 2011

FreezerBoy said:
Waterfalls are the most effective means of aeration. But, again, everything's a trade off. In this case the trade off is noise. Waterfalls are loud; Air stones are near silent.

If you can afford the space and noise, waterfalls are the answer. If you can afford noise but not space, open ended airtubes. If you can afford neither space or noise, go with airstones.

I've been exploring the oxygen injection system ideas from the Aquaculture industry. They say that with a pure oxygen injection system you could saturate the water above 100%.

I wonder if there would be a benefit to have a oxygen injection system for hydro systems?

Check out this link, http://www.pointfour.com/file_library/userfiles/Pure Oxygen Supplementation.pdf

FreezerBoy · Feb 28, 2011

I'd certainly read any diary using the method. Note however the reasons they're doing this: Over population, build up of poisonous gasses, over feeding, insufficient filtration... things we try to avoid to begin with.

Most interesting to me (if I understand it correctly) was the suggestion it could be cheaper than standard air pumps. However, that's in dealing with tanks that were overpopulated, poisoned, under filtrated etc. With those infractions removed from the equation, would it still be cheaper?

Nice read either way.

Haps · Feb 28, 2011

You could do what you want with more tides, and leaving a couple inches of water at low tide. One pump in each res on a timer, I do six tides per day, and have systems designed to do 8 and 12 tides that have not yet been tested to see if more tides is worth it.

The waterfall or tide in my systems adds more than just DO, kenesis of the water adds bennys we do not yet understand how to quantify, but they are real. The drying out of the roots at low tide is great for growth, but they need to stay wet to breathe.

Going beyond max DO does not seem to help, try it yourself, double your air pumps each crop till you can see it does not improve. Yes I did try it, that's how we learn.
H

Scrogerman · Feb 28, 2011

H2o2 & Airpump/stones works great in DWC, iirc Cannabis can use 30-100ppms D'O, you get about 7ppms O2 in aerated water using stones at optimal temp(approx), i think waterfall D'O ppm is similar, maybe a little higher, but nothing to write home about, H2o2 sorts that out, Oxy+ i use. Running the Dead Res, Temps 68f-72f, simple Nute line like Ionic, seen stellar result with DWC 70L totes(2-4plant), couldnt be easier/lazyier, little maintainance once dialled-in. Recirc, even better.
Depends what you want but i couldnt think of an easier way to get great results. Max usuable DO is good thing & can help maximise nute uptake, i see the difference & boost in overall growth & health using the Oxy+. alot of haters of the product(most of the organic heads) but it has multiple benefits, & well worth it imo, certainly has a perminant place in my arsenal.

ive asked about actual Liquid O2 injection before, but cant remember what was said, dont think it was positive & i was put off the idea lets put it that way. thoughts anyone?

Also, ive never understood why people say a waterfall dissolves more D'O into solution than say Mutiple micropore airstones with VHO compressor airpump? As i take it, D'O is actally dissolved at the surface of the solution/water by breaking the surface tension. Well if im running a 70lpm Compressor airpump & 6 x 12" micropore airstones, the suface tension of the water is mashed up & many more times more agitated than a simple waterfall. the physics doesnt add up to me, id like someone to explain this to me also, as ive never agreed with the waterfall creates more D'O, seems wrong to me as the surface tension of the sol is only broken at a certain point/s, whereas the surface tension of my 70L tote with the stone & 70lpm compressor pump creates a white water raging rapid at the whole surface of the solution. never got this myself?
Its my understanding water will only disslove a maximum amount of D'O at the normal atmoshphere & optimal temp(low ppms like 7-9ppm), so the only way to get the D'O up to the 30-100 usuable ppms would be to inject O2 or H2o2, H2o2 is cheap & available & wicked effective.

Anybody seen the Oxydator, the vessel for liquid h2o2 that only releases pure O2 into solution & enables use with none of the bacteria/organic substance breakdown properties( or simply prevents direct contact with sol). This little device enables people who use organic or semi organic products in their Res's to safely use h2o2. the benefits, can increase D'O substantially without the negatives that come from using H2o2. I like the sound of this, as i like to use organic enhancers/boosters myself(these days) & its not doable with adding neat h2o2, as it breaks everything organic down, kills bene's ect. something else to ponder over, anybody know if the oxy test strips are any good, they aint cheap/pennys.

(Very Large Oxydator Please!!!! DIY anybody?)-not sure on using pure O2 & organics like i said before!
but i do fancy running 30-100ppms of D'O to help max nute uptake, no denying that! just cant be done with pumps or waterfalls in normal atmosphere.

Cheers!

gr33nie · Feb 28, 2011

The thing about air pumps, is that they can increase the temperature of the water at the root zone if your pumping hot air through them, meaning that the water holds less DO....so you could be fighting against yourself - you'd want to keep the temperature as cool and stable as possible while adding DO for it to have any real effect...

The reason that waterfall effect works so well, is that your generally not increasing the temperature of the water whilst introducing DO into the system.

DO is increased at low nutrient temps, but not too low or plant growth will stall...optimum nutrient temps are between 18C and 24C .

The best solution is to aerate an external rez using the waterfall effect (or something like this: hxxp://www.keepalive.net/movies/ (thanks Fred)) then pump the nutrient solution through the system....

thinkin · Feb 28, 2011

more 02

more 02

Recently worked on improving my Dissolved Oxygen

orig setup:
Two 2 gallons tubs dwc/swc
whisper 60 airpump.
4" airstones.

1) add another air pump whisper 100 ($25) (this pump runs only with lights on)
2) replace 4" air stones with 8" disk air stones (~$30)
3) daily add Hydrogen Peroxide (3%) to rez (5.5 ml per gallon)
4) active air intake just in front and below reservoirs which cooled the rez by 1-3 F from ambient temps. ($10 pc fan)
5) raised the 8" net pots (oversized for rez size) higher out of the rezs.
6) move airpumps to coolest air available which was on floor (cold air injection!)

Very Happy with results.

Looking back: Addition of the 100 whisper is overkill. You don't need it. Only upgrade I am debating is making a flip/flop for air pumps.

drudown11 · Feb 28, 2011

hey whats up guys. Long time grower frst time poster.

Ive been having this idea lately and im really starting to give it thought. So in your res you should have enough room to fit a water pump and a small piece of tubing. You have the water pump on 24/7, pumping the water up the tubing, and then waterfalling back down when its 2 or three inches above water.
You create a mini waterfall inside your res that's constantly aerating and mixing, along with with your air stones that when the roots and supply more oxygen.

Im kinda stoned so i hope all of that made sense. :dance013:

Hydrogen peroxide also adds oxygen, but at the expense of killing ever benefical organism in your nutrient solution. Personally I love benficial bacteria and fungi so i never use the stuff. Only when cleaning and sanitizing.

krest · Feb 28, 2011

Get a greater than 100Watt Alita airpump and you'll have tons of extra air in your system. http://www.alita.com/airpump/pi_100u_en.php

fireburner23 · Mar 1, 2011

Scrogerman said:
H2o2 & Airpump/stones works great in DWC, iirc Cannabis can use 30-100ppms D'O, you get about 7ppms O2 in aerated water using stones at optimal temp(approx), i think waterfall D'O ppm is similar, maybe a little higher, but nothing to write home about, H2o2 sorts that out, Oxy+ i use. Running the Dead Res, Temps 68f-72f, simple Nute line like Ionic, seen stellar result with DWC 70L totes(2-4plant), couldnt be easier/lazyier, little maintainance once dialled-in. Recirc, even better.
Depends what you want but i couldnt think of an easier way to get great results. Max usuable DO is good thing & can help maximise nute uptake, i see the difference & boost in overall growth & health using the Oxy+. alot of haters of the product(most of the organic heads) but it has multiple benefits, & well worth it imo, certainly has a perminant place in my arsenal.

ive asked about actual Liquid O2 injection before, but cant remember what was said, dont think it was positive & i was put off the idea lets put it that way. thoughts anyone?

Also, ive never understood why people say a waterfall dissolves more D'O into solution than say Mutiple micropore airstones with VHO compressor airpump? As i take it, D'O is actally dissolved at the surface of the solution/water by breaking the surface tension. Well if im running a 70lpm Compressor airpump & 6 x 12" micropore airstones, the suface tension of the water is mashed up & many more times more agitated than a simple waterfall. the physics doesnt add up to me, id like someone to explain this to me also, as ive never agreed with the waterfall creates more D'O, seems wrong to me as the surface tension of the sol is only broken at a certain point/s, whereas the surface tension of my 70L tote with the stone & 70lpm compressor pump creates a white water raging rapid at the whole surface of the solution. never got this myself?
Its my understanding water will only disslove a maximum amount of D'O at the normal atmoshphere & optimal temp(low ppms like 7-9ppm), so the only way to get the D'O up to the 30-100 usuable ppms would be to inject O2 or H2o2, H2o2 is cheap & available & wicked effective.

Anybody seen the Oxydator, the vessel for liquid h2o2 that only releases pure O2 into solution & enables use with none of the bacteria/organic substance breakdown properties( or simply prevents direct contact with sol). This little device enables people who use organic or semi organic products in their Res's to safely use h2o2. the benefits, can increase D'O substantially without the negatives that come from using H2o2. I like the sound of this, as i like to use organic enhancers/boosters myself(these days) & its not doable with adding neat h2o2, as it breaks everything organic down, kills bene's ect. something else to ponder over, anybody know if the oxy test strips are any good, they aint cheap/pennys.

(Very Large Oxydator Please!!!! DIY anybody?)-not sure on using pure O2 & organics like i said before!
but i do fancy running 30-100ppms of D'O to help max nute uptake, no denying that! just cant be done with pumps or waterfalls in normal atmosphere.

Cheers!

Your right, increased O2 does help with growth.

I found an actual paper that says that increased saturation of O2 increases roots production. http://www.eurohydro.com/pdf/articles/gb_dissolved_oxygen.pdf

Is there a larger Oxydator? or something similar? How about using a Oxygen Concentrator instead?

PoopyTeaBags · Mar 1, 2011

pftek said:
Okay so I have a DWC set up. Everyone keeps telling me I need MORE air. Air is the key they say...

So I currently have two DWC tubs. side by side. perpetual harvest.

These are built in tubs that CAN NOT be raised off the ground.

I was thinking of filling only 1 tub with water. and then having the water move from one tub to the other on a timer system. Like 3 times a day all the water would move from Tub A to Tub B and then vice versa.

Is there a way I can do this? Good Idea?

Go buy a commercial air 7 from eco plus and split it into only two lines... youll have more air then you know what to do with....

Bake_McBride · Mar 1, 2011

Scrogerman said:
(Very Large Oxydator Please!!!! DIY anybody?)

Here's a link to a thread where a few brave souls are attempting to put together a DIY oxygen generator. It's based on HHO fuel cells, except for our purposes we vent the hydrogen and the pure oxygen bubbles produced are so small, they can't break the surface of the nutrient solution, creating a nutrient/oxygen slurry that carries more oxygen than the solution can dissolve (oversaturation) and produces explosive growth. Check it out.

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=6062

Any way I can do this? I want MORE air in DWC!

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