how much does a male influence the terpene profile of female progeny when out-xing ?

Collembola · Feb 10, 2016

hello,

please can someone help regarding, how much a male from homogenous population impacts the profile (not amount of odour etc) of the progeny of offspring from another homogenous population (i.e. throughout the f1 population)

can the male CONSIDERABLY change it ?, or will the offspring generally flow with that of the female parent ?

THANKYOU! for any help.

HidingInTheHaze · Feb 10, 2016

It's going to be a case by case basis and really depends on which parent is more dominant for which traits. If you look at mendel's law of inheritance you will get a mix traits in the F1 and F2 generation, with continual and selective inbreeding that's when you can start moving a population towards certain traits.

Collembola · Feb 10, 2016

thankyou,

i have been reading about mendel, genetics etc, but struggling with practical application; space, time etc

i have a female i want to make seeds with, that ticks MANY boxes, but i don't like the terpene profile.

i only really want to have a tiny bit informed go at pollen chucking, though, then maybe inbreed.

-------------------------

the male comes from a line with MUCH nicer terpene profile,

> i.e

p1 nice p2 (female) nasty

does that mean i can expect ~25% or more of the offspring to be nice ?, regardless of which parent a indvidual will lean ?

i.e. i can have p2 leaning offspring with really nice terpene profile ?

or more so will they ALL probably be hindered by the nastyness of p2's profile ?

i.e. should i expect 25% to be a genetically combined mixture of "nasty and nice" as best case scenario ?, assuming they will lean to p2 ?

thanks!!

HidingInTheHaze · Feb 10, 2016

Its a shit shoot, the only way to know anything is trial an error.

As scientific as some people like to pretend to be breeding plants is a blind practice, you can never really know how the male or female will behave in a cross.

Once you make a few hybrids with a certain parent and see for yourself what it passes a long then you can start to make educated guesses. Some strains work better for breeding than others and breed more true for one trait or another.

Like deep chunk for example, it is a highly inbred strain and its progeny in hybrids come with a high degree of predictability, something like SSH for example is a text book poly hybrid and produces insane variation.

Collembola · Feb 10, 2016

thankyou, again;

would you say there is a "strong possibilty" of the progeny aquiring the nice terpene profile ?

or is even that, too much of a how long is string question ?

(sorry for keeping asking the same question....)

--------

i am just going to pollen chuck ace seeds lines @ f8 or somewhere ballpark figure (both m/f), allegedly then go from there.

the seeds i have grown (not alot...) have all seemed mostly homogenous, for many traits as far as i can tell

(-although noob)

thanks!

HidingInTheHaze · Feb 10, 2016

Ask yourself this; would a female version of your male be what you like?

If you want to know your male, get to know your females.

Mystic Funk · Feb 10, 2016

like hidinginthehaze said you need to find out if your ''nasty'' trait is dominant or recessive.

the easiest way to do that is get some males a and outcross them and see if the ''nasty'' goes away. you can also lose some other good traits at the same time if their recessive too.

hope this answers you question.
good luck.

Collembola · Feb 10, 2016

thankyou!!,

all replies have answered the question, although i obviously have an aversion to it.... (this is the problem with noobs no ?)

--------

it's just i want to do things somewhat properly (master of the pollen, not it's "bitch") have soooooo little space thus have to resort to a great deal of reading and speculation, AND THANKYOU BOTH VERY MUCH for pointing me in the right direction.

i am in the process of harvesting pollen at the moment, cobweb mould permitting!

it's just i also understand that for people in my position (large venture / expenditure of time and resourse for my space (160cm x 75x75cm tent...), i also understand, it may infact be more beneficial to simply fuck it all off and just buy a vast amount of f1 seed to go through (comfortably more flowers that way too).

VERY low production,

best [and again speculative] method of capturing dragons, i don't know ?

thankyou!!!

Dropped Cat · Feb 10, 2016

I'm working a cross of a female unknown c1979 x (sensi star x nycd)

I have been selecting for scent, vigor and potency in the F2 lines,
of which I have two.

I discard all males of F2 as well as any weak scent/potency.

In time I will cross keeper F2 females back to the P1 male
sensi star x nycd.

From those seeds I will grow out as many females and males
to open pollinate.

From that batch I will select females again to get pollinated with the P1 male.

Done in a micro set up, I know will take some time, but I will
get the plants I want in the end.

igrowone · Feb 11, 2016

i will give you a small case, just 3 seeds/plants
used a cali-o male, femmes assorted, 3 seeds gorwn out so far
the verdict, that male flavor/nose was very pronounced in offspring
it stuck, in other words
effect also seemed to carry, not the male's exactly but similar to a cali-o femme
3 plants ain't much, still interesting though

Collembola · Feb 11, 2016

no that is perfect thankyou igrowone !!!, exactly what i was looking for.

it is nice for anectodally, did not know how maliable the genetic building blocks can be etc

(hopefully i will encounter a similar finding)

----------------

funny thing for me about the big boys / rhetoric, saying about plant numbers etc,

not relevant for people like us, who only looking for stand out progeny,

just want to do a little bit of bottlenecking for the cause, not create homozygosity or anything.

i read a thread here, will not name, about a BIG, reputable breeder ribbing another breeder (i think (?)) for not buying more seeds from him to explore, REALLY expensive seeds too,

on the basis of needing VAST numbers (well his effing expensive seeds musn't be that great right ?), i think they were s1's too, of somebody elses work....

> what aload of rubbish!!!

(also we have the benefit of not having a vested interest / commerical douchebaggery).

Collembola · Feb 11, 2016

Dropped Cat said:
I'm working a cross of a female unknown c1979 x (sensi star x nycd)

I have been selecting for scent, vigor and potency in the F2 lines,
of which I have two.

I discard all males of F2 as well as any weak scent/potency.

please could you explain why you cull f2 males ?

also, i do not understand, the back-cross to a polyhybrid male ?

like why not use f2 males instead of the p hybrid ?, as presumably more predictability of offspring that way ?

THANKS!

stoned-trout · Feb 11, 2016

just do it..you can read charts and graphs ..but what it all comes down to is ,testing ,cloning an labeling...you need to test the males for what they pass on..you need to preserve all subjects in clone form...you need to take notes....yeehaw..I mostly do simple crosses but have done a few strains to 5 when they are real inbred...breeding takes a lot of space for me.. as I like to sprout 100 seeds...I like to slim it down to 72 then....I do it in as small space as possible

SoufLondon · Feb 11, 2016

Hey stoned-trout i was just reading your post and i realised your name anagrams to donut-otters

take from that what you will.

cheers

MJPassion · Feb 11, 2016

Collembola said:
hello,

please can someone help regarding, how much a male from homogenous population impacts the profile (not amount of odour etc) of the progeny of offspring from another homogenous population (i.e. throughout the f1 population)

can the male CONSIDERABLY change it ?, or will the offspring generally flow with that of the female parent ?

THANKYOU! for any help.

As already mentioned, there's not any real predictably on an initial cross.

I'd suggest making your cross then going through as many seed as possible from the cross. Even if you're only popping 5-10 seeds at a time.

You can reverse a male, making it female, so you can judge its flower qualities better. I, personally, would bother though. I find popping seeds easier.

Also, to better your chances of finding exactly what you are looking for, use multiple males. Either all mixed up or 1:1 pollenations.

Mendel charts are neat but they rarely apply, in a direct sense, to cannabis breeding. They can give you a basic idea but, ime, nothing is concrete.

No sense speculating too much.
Get the cross done. That's the second phase of your journey. The first being making the decision to toss pollen at your chosen lady.

VerdantGreen · Feb 11, 2016

whether the plant is a male or a female is largely irrelevant because a strain/variety does NOT have different genetics for male and female expression. only one gene or very few genes affect this.

what is relevant is how true-breeding the strain is for the traits you are trying to pass on to the cross you are making, you might be able to do some research on that but as people have said, the best way is to make the cross and grow out some of the seeds to see what you've got.

VG

Collembola · Feb 11, 2016

thankyou,

i totally realise it is entirely speculative in nature, but (please bare in mind here i am noob )

intended p1 female takes 14 (?) weeks to flower (in week 3), so it's a fair while of *twiddling thumbs etc (*read: phallic non-metaphor) in the mean time...

provided plants make it to the next generation...

honestly though, the pheno of panama i have makes my bong (vape bag into bong) STINK of pongy burned newspaper.

> you know when newspaper catches on fire and theres the ink / paper yuck smell that stinks out wherever incident has occured

like how cheese is a nice / intriguging "disgusting" odour, this one is just pooey.

bleuuuuuuurgggggghhhh

sounds like a great parent, no ? hehe

-----------------

thankyou for ALL replies and any more to follow, very helpful.

Dropped Cat · Feb 11, 2016

Collembola said:
please could you explain why you cull f2 males ?

also, i do not understand, the back-cross to a polyhybrid male ?

like why not use f2 males instead of the p hybrid ?, as presumably more predictability of offspring that way ?

THANKS!

Good points, but what I am aiming for is more genetics
from that P1 male. Any F2 male will have genetics from
the P1 female mixed in.

After the first back cross I'll still have genes of that female in the mix,
but all the progeny of that back cross will be by percentage more P1
male genes than P1 female ones.

Then those genes from the first back cross will get shuffled in an open
pollination, to even out the code, so to speak.

The best females from that generation will get dusted by the P1 male,
adding to the percentage of those male genes again.

Another open pollination after that, and perhaps will start to work in
some males of the F3 generation to see about predictable offspring.

Nobody'sNursery · Feb 11, 2016

As a general rule I would say the male contributes 50 percent if it has strong traits and as low as 10 percent if it has weak traits. Rarely does the male contribute the majority of the terps unless the female is weak. These are generalizations of course. It's all about knowing what your male passes to the progeny and the only way to know is sort f1s.

Dropped Cat · Feb 11, 2016

Nobody'sNursery said:
As a general rule I would say the male contributes 50 percent if it has strong traits and as low as 10 percent if it has weak traits. Rarely does the male contribute the majority of the terps unless the female is weak. These are generalizations of course. It's all about knowing what your male passes to the progeny and the only way to know is sort f1s.

Yup.

I selected for vigor, scent and potency in my F1 lines.

All the roadkill (P1 female) was culled in favor of the cherry,
(P1 male)

I'll get back to the roadkill after the second backcross
of the cherry line.

All the F2 males were roadkill, and I have many of
the F1 seeds to go through. My second project will be
based on what the female, circa 1979, has to offer.

I culled that female P1 last summer, who wants 35
year old genetics anyway, lol

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how much does a male influence the terpene profile of female progeny when out-xing ?

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