Toxicant Formation in Dabbing: The Terpene Story

ozzieAI · Apr 22, 2018

Found this researching Terpenes...

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acsomega.7b01130

■ CONCLUSIONS
Given the widespread legalization of cannabis in the United States, it is imperative to study the full toxicology of its consumption to guide future policy. The results of these studies clearly indicate that dabbing, although considered a form of vaporization, may in fact deliver significant amounts of toxic degradation products. The difficulty users find in controlling the nail temperature put users at risk of exposing themselves to not only methacrolein but also benzene. Additionally, the heavy focus on terpenes as additives seen as of late in the cannabis industry is of great concern due to the oxidative liability of these compounds when heated. This research also has significant implications for flavored e-cigarette products due to the extensive use of terpenes as flavorings. Future research
will also be directed toward assessing the contribution of terpenoids to the existing toxicant formation in e-cigarettes. Additionally, the methods discussed herein will also be used to further study the degradation of cannabis extracts used in dabbing and cannabis e-cigarettes.

methacrolein: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methacrolein

Exposure to methacrolein is highly irritating to the eyes, nose, throat and lungs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene

OSHA regulates levels of benzene in the workplace.[68] The maximum allowable amount of benzene in workroom air during an 8-hour workday, 40-hour workweek is 1 ppm. As benzene can cause cancer, NIOSH recommends that all workers wear special breathing equipment when they are likely to be exposed to benzene at levels exceeding the recommended (8-hour) exposure limit of 0.1 ppm.[69]

Gray Wolf · Apr 22, 2018

Good points, and one touched on in Sweet Mary's Charms.

There is not that much difference between some of the terpenes and pyrolsis is commonly used to change some of the more plentiful ones to less plentiful ones.

Eliminating overheating is one of the prime reasons that I built a PID controlled electric nail and have never looked back.

beta · Apr 22, 2018

Wouldn't this be equally true of combusted flower?

Gray Wolf · Apr 22, 2018

beta said:
Wouldn't this be equally true of combusted flower?

Yes. Combusting it in any form will.

An overheated nail can also do so and it is a concentrate.

maryjane481 · Apr 22, 2018

Does anyone know the proper nail temperature?

littlepookie · Apr 22, 2018

Obviously high temps can lead to long-chain polymers among other things.

littlepookie · Apr 22, 2018

maryjane481 said:
Does anyone know the proper nail temperature?

666 F'

SkyHighLer · Apr 22, 2018

maryjane481 said:
Does anyone know the proper nail temperature?

Ideal Flash Vaporization Temperatures (and ways to achieve them)

What temperature do you flash vaporize (dab) at? And how do you achieve it repeatably?

This thread isn't about vaporizing slowly at low temps, or incineration at high temps. It is about the subjective effects of dialing in the 'sweet' spot somewhere in the range of 550-750F or about 285-400C.

710 = OIL, or is 710F the smoking point of oil?

666 = the Biblical number of the beast, or the highest clean (non-smoking) dabbing temp?

Is it really realistic to try and dab below 600F? (Because it's so slow...)

My observations come from many months of analysis using a regularly calibrated device, which locks into any temp I choose from 400-900F (200-480C.)

The device I'm using is based on the Hakko FX-888 soldering station. The Hakko FX-888D (digital) is now available. I use a wide surface area replacement tip, T18-C5. The inside of the yellow base piece has been reamed with a Dremel multi-tool so the soldering iron could be inserted snugly backwards, no other major modification was necessary. Calibration is accomplished using a Hakko FG-100 soldering tip thermometer, the ~$15 ebay China version is fine and comes with authentic Hakko sensors.

From here (use the trick in my ICMAG Signature to open the link,)

https://www.tokecity.com/forums/sho...tion-Temperatures-(and-ways-to-achieve-them)&

Gray Wolf · Apr 23, 2018

maryjane481 said:
Does anyone know the proper nail temperature?

I set my electric nail at 650F.

I built my E nail so that the coil lifts off and detaches for passing, so the temperature starts dropping from there once disconnected.

I've tried 600F, but performance is weak as it falls below that.

maryjane481 · Apr 23, 2018

Thanks Gray Wolf and SkyHighler for the info.
After seeing gray wolf’s oil rig I don’t feel so bad about how dirty mine is.&#55357;&#56841;
I already have the same vice, all I need now is a portable water heater and I’m in business.

Gray Wolf · Apr 23, 2018

maryjane481 said:
Thanks Gray Wolf and SkyHighler for the info.
After seeing gray wolf’s oil rig I don’t feel so bad about how dirty mine is.��
I already have the same vice, all I need now is a portable water heater and I’m in business.

No reason to feel bad that I can see. A little like a piggy bank saving gold coins.

I get free rig cleanings, from some folks coveting the reclaim for topicals or sedative meds. It does look like it's time, but I broke my spare Skunk pipe transporting it for cleaning, so now have to closely schedule the event with my remaining one.

Gray Wolf · Apr 23, 2018

PS: The question came up as to what a PID controller was, drawing my attention to my use of technical jargon using the acronym.

It doesn't make much more sense saying a Proportional Integral Derivative controller, but what it means is a self teaching controller, that continuously calculates the proportional error between set point and actual value, and proportionally applies a correction.

Conventional controls turn on when low value is hit, and turn off when high value is reached, leaving a "dead band" between the two. The width of that dead band is dependent on the distance between the upper and lower limit controls.

A self learning system, notes the hysteresis (lag) in the system, and begins to apply the control proportionally early, to reduce lag. It continues to do that and tries to narrow the dead band as much as possible. The result is moving from a set point range of + or - 2 degrees from set point, to in the case of my electric nail, a tolerance of + zero, - less than 1 degree.

Roji · Apr 23, 2018

I set mine to 550 or even 520 for that waste it to taste it experience i love so much.

WaterFarmFan · Apr 24, 2018

What does the temperature inside of ceramic element in vape cartridges reach? These run best on pretty low wattage pen style batteries.

WaterFarmFan · Apr 24, 2018

What about some kind of specialized terp bong? Terpenes are so volatile that over time many will evaporate well below their boiling point. So, would it not be theoretically the healthiest to volatilize them at the lowest temp possible to avoid converting them to more harmful derivatives? Something like this but with better materials:

https://www.amazon.com/MABIS-Personal-Steam-Inhaler-Vaporizer/dp/B000AYYK5M/

baaaahaaaaaaaaa - she looks stoned as fuck from inhaling all those terps...

Gray Wolf · Apr 24, 2018

WaterFarmFan said:
What about some kind of specialized terp bong? Terpenes are so volatile that over time many will evaporate well below their boiling point. So, would it not be theoretically the healthiest to volatilize them at the lowest temp possible to avoid converting them to more harmful derivatives? Something like this but with better materials:

https://www.amazon.com/MABIS-Personal-Steam-Inhaler-Vaporizer/dp/B000AYYK5M/

baaaahaaaaaaaaa - she looks stoned as fuck from inhaling all those terps...

View Image

A Nebulizer should ostensibly work with the monoterpenes, which are also used in aroma therapy.

Gray Wolf · Apr 24, 2018

Roji said:
I set mine to 550 or even 520 for that waste it to taste it experience i love so much.

Hee, hee, hee, with my rig, both tasty and a subtle way to share with the non dabbers present, as it sits and fumes.

Gray Wolf · Apr 24, 2018

Echo, echo, echo..............

Gray Wolf · Apr 24, 2018

Because my coil comes off to pass, the nail temperature begins to drop immediately and the way I and some of my associates tell the right temperature range, is hold the nail near our lips.

Not very scientific, but we developed that style heating the bowl with a torch until red, and then cooling until just right before dabbing.

SkyHighLer · Apr 24, 2018

Roji said:
I set mine to 550 or even 520 for that waste it to taste it experience i love so much.

You can get away with such low temps if you're dabbing highly purified oil, but as GW jokes, the heavies will continue to vaporize on and on with anything else.

I currently have presets at 534, 578, 622, 666, and 710 Fahrenheit.

A thermocouple's accuracy drifts over time, especially at high temperatures. I recalibrated my microprocessor controlled dab station yesterday, after six months or so of use it was off by 25C (my soldering iron tip temperature meter reads in Celsius.)

An enail is a cobbled together device, nothing about it is a perfect match. It works, but just barely.

A soldering station has the exact same design goals as the perfect dab station:

1) Steady temperature

2) Steady temperature

3) Steady temperature

This is accomplished by having the exact amount of copper mass near the tip to instantaneously feed energy to the tip at application. The copper mass near the tip is in full contact with the heater/sensor to transfer energy. The heater wattage is exact to what is necessary to maintain tip temperature. And finally, the microprocessor parameters (like those of a generic PID controller) are dialed in exactly to what is necessary to keep the tip temp from dipping or overshooting. When my dabber makes contact with the soldering iron tip, the temperature doesn't fall, it rocks steady.

Rock Steady BC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO3I_YfcY48

Toxicant Formation in Dabbing: The Terpene Story

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