How to Neutrally do Open Pollination - predominance early Male?

Mohadib said:

In fact I have seen it myself – at least to a certain extend.

When I pop seeds, I transfer any promising looking males to another room where they can flower and where I can collect their pollen. I also transfer any left-over clones that I don’t give away to the same room; they are then used for seed production by open pollination.
As of yet, there has always been one male dropping it’s pollen prior to the other males, either because it was in fact faster flowering or because it was planted earlier.
Depending on the temporal difference between the males flowering, you can see the female clones developing seeds prior to any other male flowering. Now, since the clones are generally very small (I only use clones in very small pots that were stuck in the transplanting queue for quite some time) it’s pretty easy to get an idea of how many seeds are forming on each clone. With that given, it’s rather easy to tell whether there are any more seeds forming after another male releases its pollen. From what I can tell, this is not the case. This impression is corroborated by my observation that the offspring of these clones consistently shows traits from the earliest flowering males (or at least the line the male stems from) but not from the later flowering males.

But even without all that, I still think what J-Icky said it’s self-evident: A fully or mostly pollinated female will pump all of its energy into producing seeds: It won’t produce much more bud matter and it also stops producing resin after it got pollinated because it only develops flowers in order to reproduce and it (more or less) only produces resin to make the pollen stick to its flowers (the resin also seems to serve other purposes though, such as UV-protection and to work as a natural insecticide).
If a female is only partly pollinated and not all of its energy is needed to develop seeds, it keeps developing buds as well as resin in order to produce even more seeds. In this case, later flowering males still have a chance to pollinate it as well.

If it wasn’t the case that the female changes its hormonal balance after being fully/mostly pollinated and therefore pumping all of its energy into seed production, its growing behaviour wouldn’t change as dramatically as it does.
And if it wasn’t the case that this is a one way road and the females would be able to develop even more bud matter even after being fully/motsly pollinated, any open pollination would result in the females developing thousands and thousands of seeds, no matter how wimpy they are. This is clearly not the case. In fact, it would beg the question why any pollinated female should stop producing seeds at all, when there's flowering males present.

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Mohadib said:

a comparatively safe way to make sure all the males can contribute to the pollination is to collect pollen of every male and hand-pollinate the females one by one. Depending on the number of males and the possibilities one has to seperate plants from each other, this might be a lot of work though.
An easier way would be to collect pollen from all the males, mix it up and then letting it pollinate the female plants all at once. If you have a male that's flowering a lot earlier than the others, so you have to store it until the other males are ready, I'd add a larger amount of this pollen to the mix, as time will have an impact of the viability on the pollen, no matter how well you store it.

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A fully or mostly pollinated female will pump all of its energy into producing seeds: It won’t produce much more bud matter and it also stops producing resin after it got pollinated because it only develops flowers in order to reproduce and it (more or less) only produces resin to make the pollen stick to its flowers (the resin also seems to serve other purposes though, such as UV-protection and to work as a natural insecticide).

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romanoweed said:

I already have some 2 different Postings on that Idea:


1st:
if you have one male, and a female, then the male pollinates, and seeds take around 5-6 weeks to form.. after that your males polinates further, if you dont kill it.. then your female will be pollinated again, as soon as your seeds have finished forming.. and they will make another seedrun, up to 3 times or so... so, as soon as seeds formed in 5 6 weeks the females are open again for beeing pollnated. So and if you have now 3 males it s unshure wich one will pollinate, atleast when 3 are Standing there/starting pollinisation at the exact same time. So when one male is a bit earlier, it will atleast make seeds all himselve for the first run of seeds, and after the first Serie of seeds has formed , then all the other males will have the same Chance to make the babies for this time..

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Fuel said:

Well, the "ten unknown seeds" scenario is not a context which can lead very far by definition (in term of method) until you produce a decent number of F2. Then you will discover only in F2 if you was lucky or not.


In this scenario, i will personally isolate each interesting couple in a dedicated line. To maximize my chances to have a decent F2 line somewhere, but also to keep the lines isolated from each others. To buy time, you're not always in possession of a line with (true) genetic values than can last a decade of work. It can be a BX than will require retro-selection to inject again the dynamic, it can be an inbred line allready "washed", it can be also a landrace which have difficulties to acclimatize to your context ... the number of usual worries is pretty high and it have a lot more leverage than to refuse to assume a selection on a tiny scale (at this point).


Now on a personnal side, it's important to share something at this point of the conversation : when i buy seeds, i focus the financial effort to a single line and it's generally a big order on which I've spent months of searches. Because the market is what it is today, i'm blaming a quality decrease since 20 years and with all this hemp you can smell in (EU) events, i think it will last another decade at least.


Just to quote one example on my daily smoke : the Jack Herer/Sensi. End of 90's, a single pack was enough to extract valuable specimens (in term of genetic value again, it's not all about the smoke), so easy than at this moment you can't believe than sensi will let this expensive "flag ship" strain fade out. Ten years later, you're back at it but have to spend 1.5K to reach the same interesting pivot point in term of expression with the ability to maintain it.



And for me this situation is systemic, the prices are a lot more sweet than before (generally) but the cost of quality have drastically increased. Like any market than is just finishing its saturation phase. I can find tons of JH variations everywhere but to extract the specimens i need, the costs are now multiplied by ten. It's not always about the hyped seeds or about a zone 51 weed, a lot of classic lines than we all guessed "eternal" are fading out from their original sources. And behind the fancy names of strains, these classics are the major backbones on which rely most of releases since the 90's.



On it, i will join your philosophy : it's time to backup your favorite weed before including it in your "sorry over safety" list.



Also, i never buy or include in my pool something than i don't known. It have no sense for me in term of breeding. The exploration time is over for me since a while, i'm focused on what i love to smoke and to grow the most only. Nothing legendary or "bankable", mostly 90's classics. I just try to stay in touch with the cuts of the moment, but it's always first with an Oz in a zip ^^


Let's enter more in details now.


I refuse technically to split a rare hybrid from a rare landrace : the ground is the same, the genetic constraints are the same and the goal is the same. Then the methodologies required to best handle the equation. Pro constraint or not, it doesn't matter.


In your hands full of seeds, ready to be germinated, you have a panel of specimens build with the same equation : the linked traits defining the strain + let's say a bonus and/or a malus.


If you don't sort out these specimens with enough time, you're simply running in a guinea pig wheel. At the end of your first open pollination, there is no gain and due to the extremely narrowed panel of P1, the ground is full of mines.



These mines have the tendencies to fight hard to survive genetically, specially with landraces used to fight against mother nature herself.



It can be a group of terrible latent herms than will fuck up your lines for good. And no, killing all early males don't offer any form of guarantee. The "afghani madness" back in the day is maybe the best example than the rules of the selection must be totally build for the line launched. Killing all early males in a tall 12 weeks line, why not after all, but on a 50 days afghani it don't have any sense. Open pollination or not.


Btw, each time you "brute force" the genetic code on one of the main trait defining the strain ... you always sign for a nightmare with cascading effects. For the best or the worst, it will mostly depend on your effort of documentations + your experience with similar or child lines.


To don't select the pollen donor outside an industrial context with a true culture of real time datas-management is not a method. It's doing nothing. How to preserve something on which you don't work and on which you have no control ? It's just making seeds for making seeds, the easier way possible and without any reward for the efforts. You can't acquire the necessary knowledge to spot all the genetic sub-groups and best deal with them this way. But you can blame 100% the plants with a good amount of bad faith ^^


Generations after generations, you quickly understand than swimming in selection is like watching a fractal design generated by a computer. The patterns are defined by the strains, but the global movement is defined by the sum of the genetic values.


Let's take a thaï as silly example. Let it grow in a corner without human interaction (at all, you just sow the seeds in your garden) and if the specimens will not change much in their patterns, you can be sure than you will end fast with a fiber strain with a strong and wild sexual dynamic.



Most of sexy landraces are not exactly "feral" but more a "hack" of the original patterns to give an global artificial dynamic than is making the strain more in compliance with the psychoactive needs of humans. At the point, in some parts of the planet, to be considered religiously and maintained as it. Now with the easy access of DNA tests, we known also now than most of landraces we appreciate are artificial. The majority are blends made by humans among centuries.


So, the point is than whatever is the strain you want to work, you have to understand first the tensions than are working against you. In rejecting this process, the only thing you can do as blind breeder is to destroy the inherent qualities of the line and worst, to eventually destroy the potentiality of further evolutions.


On the method, you have losted me a bit with your comparison. I don't get the point.


- 5% become P1 : ok but why ? It's something you can't determine before having the plants in front of you. Is the 5% a justified high grade pattern ? A very accurate phenotype (than is implying to known the strain like your childrens over a bunch of generations at this rate of pressure) ... at this point it don't have any sense to determine your level of pressure. I will eventually write this kind of blueprint with a JH in the quest of the most "lemony/THCV" phenotype eventually, but the source of the decision have a solid "knowledge" structure from which i can make a specific method for this specific operation. A breeding plan in another words.



- The second option is more rationnal for my taste, and have partially more sense to me because i can see the will to create a "fail-safe" in the process. That's, imho, basically what you have to do every-time for everything if you want to lead somewhere at long term, i assume this pretty radical sentence. I assume also my manner to ignore true weed artists, they are an ultra minority.


I don't find the thought wrong at all. Because the fail-safe. Now in practice, the methodology don't sing anything to my ears.


Let's consider the pollen first. On a popular side, the males are totally rejected from the equation today and the pollen considered like a kind of magic dust made with industrial constraints. All grains are the same, no concept of pollen maturity (just like the flowers of females), no difference in pollen quality from one strain to another, and most of people are considering than the male are sending diploid informations to the females like Fedex.



And it's the first problematic. The vegetal mass is just the bardcod of what is going on inside, and in this game the major part of your time is spent to avoid uncontrolled drifts.



Do you really want let a chance to all latent herm to fuck up your line ?

Do you really want than this "too vigorous to be honest" male, with it's grains made from titanium, pollenate the whole pool with an increased ratio ?

Do you want minimize the genetic ratio of this fabulous potent female, just because she take her time to flower ?

Which male of the pool will be at it's optimal peak of production when the pistil of this female will be plushy ?



Neverending headache, and imho that's a big layer of worries you can avoid with a bit of methodism.


Let's extrapolate a stupid example to finish.


Breeder XYZ : no experience at all on anything, zero line under the belt, zero long term errors, none strain known, don't known the majority of classics.



Material : ten seeds of the line ABC bought with a kidney, and discontinued for good.


Context : small scale, let's say 1sqm on which a "soggy" style is planned at a the density of 100 specimens/sqm. Basically soda bottles filled with plants, with all space used.


- Open pollination : it will be a very dangerous "void round". The only thing you get is more seeds.



- 5% selection (but from a true breeding plan, with traits listed, references etc) : the line become a process of creation. The output is something "wanted" and than will be worked afterward in quest of stabilization. Off course, it have a price. And the more pressure you put on this unique line, the more the price will be expensive. You reduce the "genetic cone" of the strain to highlight a specific zone than you love.


Polemic : the quality of the preservation in this context is highly polemic for the more radicals. A very minor portion of them have legit reasons.



This polemic is a freaking hypocrisy lol I will personally consider this type of work for my own genpool as eventual backup to get. It will mostly depend on what is smoking daily the breeder involved and if he/she really known the strain since enough time. I will not judge the method but the person in this specific case.



Because i prefer 100 times this kind of line, made by someone than is smoking and refining what i'm searching since years ... over a commercial open pollenisation or a "be my free guinea pig because i strictly don't known what i'm doing" case ^^


- a kind of pro-active preservation :


First case, the breeder XYZ is very fresh to the game and is thinking than selecting a mother to clone&smoke is the same thing than selection an initial P1 which will be the main source of genetic material for years ... of thousands and thousands of specimens.


In this case, i will play the fail-safe card full throttle and will plan a "lifetime operation". It's not a big deal with ten seeds to make a line for each possible combination, and you will save more expression potential than in avoiding selection.


The pro : you have passed time to watch the plants, to backup all these combinations let you enough time to grow : making motherplants, clones, a couple of batch for weed etc ... giving you a decent knowledge of each specimen in details. For further conclusions.


The cons : it's not compatible with larger scales, and have no sense in a professional context. You have more chances to be fired the first week this way than impressing someone in the game.


Second case is very similar to the first one, at the difference than the newcomer XYZ is educated.


Over to backup everything and take years to make his conclusions, the breeder XYZ will split the ten seeds in sub-groups then isolate these subgroups from each others. The difference is not obvious on the paper, but in practice it's totally another world.


In the first case, the breeder think than the genetic code is "finished" and all eventualities hardcoded in the plant.



In the second case, the breeder is surfing the waves of the strains in maintaining them. And he known than the genetic code is a kind of algorithm : the physical traits are not the real information, and this algorithm have an unique function : to generate another code for each couple of specimens.



The pro : you have virtually no limits but your learning curve.

The cons : it take a large slot in your global breeding plan (of the whole genpool you're keeping alive), so it mean to work with less strains to be insured to lead somewhere a day. Specially with landraces than are a lot more complex to map than a modern hybrid using a tiny panel of well-known-since-decades "backbone's classics".


Both ways to do the things are suffering from the initial point : only ten seeds. It put the twos breeders on the same level of opportunities on the stair. The shared fate being the luck.


But only one of them will build a solid momentum each generation.



No i have to react to a little thing :



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Most of the lines i'm sad to can't buy anymore in their initial quality was made by decent persons, than was far more experienced and skilled than me at this time. I can eventually fall in the easy thinking and blame them.


The fact is than everybody is equal in face of the specific constraints of breeding, and than most of active players are doing it from the underground. Even the legendary "brick and mortars" companies have to cheat the system and play the grey area until very recently. It create unnecessary worries in the logistic than can end with originbal line you lose.


Also, even in optimal conditions, you work with a living material. It mean than the start and the end of the story is not scripted like a computer code. We can talk about the Chronic, the bubba kush and a bunch others strains than have now "timeline references". Pre98, Pre2000 etc ... and we are not specially talking about "wannabees" with zero knowledge and experience.


In your considerations about it, you have include the main phenomenons :


- the domination of the fems on the market, in term of sales, and without being naive about our community. Go stainly and see how many fem cuts are offered, not hard to extrapolate the deleterious blowback and the cuts than are not declared as fems.



- the appeal for strains is very narrowed. We still in the "all dawg" period and when it's not the case it's mostly classics recycled/outcrossed with fancy stories. At the point than it start to be a real problem for a fews americans grow op (large scale). One more time it's useless to blame the people producing this stuff, they have to live in answering to a demand.


- the inherent difficulty to maintain a genpool during decades. Underground or not, we are for me "doomed" from the start. By our lifespan first but also by the fate to have to always going ahead in the creation process. I have personnaly re-created my genpool 5 times from scratch : bitchy life, bad choices, bad trade, compromises ... nothing is really writed for good in this game.



I understand your opinion, and i'm maybe a bit more radical and harsh on the subject than you. Not complaining about the narrowed commercial genpool, more on how the democratization have lead to a fast food strategy.



But it's important to remember the context to don't fall in "shoot them all and think after". Human selection is responsible of jewels we are pleased to play with today, imho more than the nightmare generated by the lefty liberalism of our stoned industry.



all the best for your projects, and keep this "fail-safe" reflex as long than you can.

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