New genius ipm technique developed by Leap Farms in Oregon

Sweetdog760 · Feb 22, 2019

So I was watching YouTube and came across an interview with the owner of Leap Farms in Oregon. This guy uses a machine that adjust the ph of water to make it either high alkaline or acidic. He then uses this water as part of his imo regimen and apparantly its very effective against all kinds of pests and diseases including pm. I found it very intriguing and thought I'd share it with you fine folks. Enjoy.

https://youtu.be/mlLszOZV2Iw

GOT_BUD? · Feb 25, 2019

Talks about it starting at ~ the 5 minute mark...

Wow. 800 - 4,000 dollars for a machine.

Searching for it the only hits I get are for selling a machine or how it's a scam. But they only discuss the effects of drinking it, not putting it onto plants.

Weird · Feb 25, 2019

high ph water as part of a foliar regime to combat pathogens is not new technique

search the forums it had been mentioned several times here in teh past

if there is a product as a end game I smell free marketing for crap

Sweetdog760 · Feb 26, 2019

Got bud- yeah for all I know it is a scam but I found it intriguing nome the less. The guy in the video ismt selling the machines and he's clearly very successful so thats something.

Wierd- he uses either acidic OR alkaline water depending on the issue hes combating. I was just sharing something I found interesting in a place where I figured like minded folks exist and therefore might also find it interesting. So great, its not new, I guess you got me. Congratulations. However it's not a normal practice in agriculture so thats either because it doesn't work or because people just don't know that it does work. I was hoping someone with some knowledge in bio-chem or something along those lines would chime in. Clearly thats not you. And I don't work for anyone so I'm not marketing. I didnt mention a brand. Or even what the tech was called so I think you might be a little misguided. Anyways, thanks for the helpful response.

GOT_BUD? · Feb 26, 2019

Weird said:
high ph water as part of a foliar regime to combat pathogens is not new technique

search the forums it had been mentioned several times here in teh past

if there is a product as a end game I smell free marketing for crap

The guys in the video talk about the type of water. Not what machine they use. And they talk about it for maybe 2 minutes before moving on to the next topic.

I went and looked up how much one of those machines cost that adjust the pH of the water. Anywhere from $800 to $4,000 depending on manufacturer and capacity.

Nobody is selling anything.

green-genes77 · Feb 26, 2019

Sweetdog760 said:
Got bud- yeah for all I know it is a scam but I found it intriguing nome the less. The guy in the video ismt selling the machines and he's clearly very successful so thats something.

Wierd- he uses either acidic OR alkaline water depending on the issue hes combating. I was just sharing something I found interesting in a place where I figured like minded folks exist and therefore might also find it interesting. So great, its not new, I guess you got me. Congratulations. However it's not a normal practice in agriculture so thats either because it doesn't work or because people just don't know that it does work. I was hoping someone with some knowledge in bio-chem or something along those lines would chime in. Clearly thats not you. And I don't work for anyone so I'm not marketing. I didnt mention a brand. Or even what the tech was called so I think you might be a little misguided. Anyways, thanks for the helpful response.

Speaking as an IPM professional with a background in biology/chemistry it's pretty clear why this works but the key is that there is only so much distance between a pH that will disintegrate/compromise chitin and cellulose and one that will damage the leaf cuticle. People planning on trying this should proceed carefully to gain an idea of what their grow specifically can handle.

On a practical level, I've used many IPM products that raise or lower the pH of water dramatically and can firmly say that in my experience, the plants I've grown can handle being sprayed with a solution ranging from pH 3 to pH 11 (note that these are both just outside the range of corrosive). There's a product called Dr. Zymes Eliminator that works specifically on the basis of its low pH. When used at full strength it usually comes out at pH 3.5. Against spider mites its effects are obvious. Under the microscope you can see the mite's bodies and have become degraded and desiccated in a way that differs from the effects of azadirachtin, etc.

I haven't had to battle PM too much (knock on wood) in my career but it is very likely a high or low pH would temporarily alter the leaf surface enough to kill the pathogen and keep new spores from invaginating.

The real question is, since this is an age-old approach, why aren't more people doing it? It may be because there's less margin for error with this approach and therefore more potential for plants to sustain substantial damage. The primary benefit of this machine seems to be that it saves you the trouble of having to pH the water yourself and allows for easy "pH balancing" followup sprays. It would conceivably save labor on a large or understaffed farm.

Weird · Feb 27, 2019

the basic mechanism is that most pathogens don't survive outside of key ph ranges that plant tissues remains unaffected by (biology 101)

it is the hey behind how most organic non biologically active products work on pathogens aka they disrupt the micro environment i.e PH

it is a tech that has been shared here many times but the reason it isn't used is because most people doubt the anecdotal evidence and wisdom of people doing this successfully for decades in lieu of science that has none

give me long enough I will find the posts where people argued the basis without testing the theory

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=5259831&postcount=28

bigtacofarmer · Feb 27, 2019

What is the perfect ph for a leaf surface? And how do you test it?

Weird · Feb 27, 2019

bigtacofarmer said:
What is the perfect ph for a leaf surface? And how do you test it?

for what? ambient existence or nutrient uptake

leaves uptake ions more readily so one must dilute to 1/6 strength if the later and hydro ph nutrient uptake ranges are adequate for foliar uptake

ambient existence I would should for the PH of natural rainwater

remember this correlates to IPM which is proactive management of pests/pathogens so what is being discussed is disrupting establishment and life cycles for these entities in the plant's direct environment not that foliar applications aren't great in many scenarios just this one runs counter intuitive to uptake

bigtacofarmer · Feb 27, 2019

Weird said:
for what? ambient existence or nutrient uptake

leaves uptake ions more readily so one must dilute to 1/6 strength if the later and hydro ph nutrient uptake ranges are adequate for foliar uptake

ambient existence I would should for the PH of natural rainwater

remember this correlates to IPM which is proactive management of pests/pathogens so what is being discussed is disrupting establishment and life cycles for these entities in the plant's direct environment not that foliar applications aren't great in many scenarios just this one runs counter intuitive to uptake

He explains in the video that it took some experiments to figure out how low of ph then how high just a few minutes later. To end up with it balanced.

So I guess Im wondering what the final ph I would be shooting for, to leave the plant in good health and not damaged from the treatment.

Microbeman · Feb 27, 2019

This is the basis of things like a baking soda (milk, etc.) solution for control of powdery mildew. As Weird and Green have alluded to it creates an alkaline environment in which the fungus cannot proliferate. This is based on the generality of bacterial>alkaline & fungi>acid.
Some companies market bottled solutions based on this theory. The problems involved are the negative impact on the leaf tissue and the short-lived control aspect.

As Weird has mentioned 'fixing' your soil with living biology to try to control pathogens at this level is the better approach IMO. If in this process one allows for and maybe introduces natural predators, in most cases 'bug' pests will also be controlled.

I skipped through the video and for sure it is an interesting way to treat leaf surfaces for pathogens but I did not note the validation for efficacy for pests. It is possible, I missed it.

I contend that this process may not be so effective as a permanent solution to a 'bug' onslaught.

One thing we noticed on our farm was that outdoor gardens were much less susceptible to pathogens and pests than indoor. I hypothesized this was because of the natural biological and predatory life in the outdoor environment. This was the motivating factor for our efforts to bring outdoors to the indoor gardens and discontinuance of fertilizers.

bigtacofarmer · Feb 27, 2019

Microbeman said:
This is the basis of things like a baking soda (milk, etc.) solution for control of powdery mildew. As Weird and Green have alluded to it creates an alkaline environment in which the fungus cannot proliferate. This is based on the generality of bacterial>alkaline & fungi>acid.
Some companies market bottled solutions based on this theory. The problems involved are the negative impact on the leaf tissue and the short-lived control aspect.

As Weird has mentioned 'fixing' your soil with living biology to try to control pathogens at this level is the better approach IMO. If in this process one allows for and maybe introduces natural predators, in most cases 'bug' pests will also be controlled.

I skipped through the video and for sure it is an interesting way to treat leaf surfaces for pathogens but I did not note the validation for efficacy for pests. It is possible, I missed it.

I contend that this process may not be so effective as a permanent solution to a 'bug' onslaught.

One thing we noticed on our farm was that outdoor gardens were much less susceptible to pathogens and pests than indoor. I hypothesized this was because of the natural biological and predatory life in the outdoor environment. This was the motivating factor for our efforts to bring outdoors to the indoor gardens and discontinuance of fertilizers.

I thought the basis behind milk was that it has natural anti fungal properties.

And as far as I can tell the reason outdoor is more resiliant to pests than indoors is that outdoor the pests generally have alot more choices on where to live and eat. Allowing the plants natural defense systems a chance to work. While indoor the pesr really only has one choice on which kind of plant to feast on and destroy.

Sunshineinabag · Feb 27, 2019

He also stated how important it was that the sprayers maintain perfect distance with one another.

h.h. · Feb 27, 2019

Probably a chemical grow and they adjust the pH of their water anyway. They're making use of existing equipment.
Why not.
Just don't burn the leaves.

bigtacofarmer · Feb 27, 2019

h.h. said:
Probably a chemical grow and they adjust the pH of their water anyway. They're making use of existing equipment.
Why not.
Just don't burn the leaves.

All organic with local sourced composts and such grown in the ground.

Microbeman · Feb 27, 2019

And as far as I can tell the reason outdoor is more resiliant to pests than indoors is that outdoor the pests generally have alot more choices on where to live and eat. Allowing the plants natural defense systems a chance to work. While indoor the pesr really only has one choice on which kind of plant to feast on and destroy.

I actually looked at fungi growing in milk just the other day, interestingly enough. Although you could be correct.

I can attest to the observation of myriads of predator mites, rove beetles, lace wings, wasps, ladybugs, etc. chowing down on (bugs) and around our plants. This is the very reason for bringing them inside (especially rove beetles).

I don't know about the natural defense system when it comes to leaf sucking 'bugs' and cannabis. There may be some species of plants that have intrinsic insect deterrent but I don't think cannabis is one. I am open to changing my view but it sure seems like leaf suckers go for healthy robust plants as well as the sickly ones.

Pathogens is another story.

Microbeman · Feb 27, 2019

The farm portrayed in the video had a very cool looking setup

green-genes77 · Feb 27, 2019

Oh man don't even get me started on how awesome Dalotia are. Used them for years as a generalist predator of soil pests. I just started raising them at the grow facility I work at and now I wonder why it took me so long.

Microbeman said:
I actually looked at fungi growing in milk just the other day, interestingly enough.

I can attest to the observation of myriads of predator mites, rove beetles, lace wings, wasps, ladybugs, etc. chowing down on (bugs) and around our plants. This is the very reason for bringing them inside (especially rove beetles).

I don't know about the natural defense system when it comes to leaf sucking 'bugs' and cannabis. There may be some species of plants that have intrinsic insect deterrent but I don't think cannabis is one. I am open to changing my view but it sure seems like leaf suckers go for healthy robust plants as well as the sickly ones.

Pathogens is another story.

Sweetdog760 · Mar 1, 2019

So it seems like this might actually be a good option for as far as ipm goes. Probably not good enough to be used solo but of it works then why not include it. The biggest benefits I see being that water is basically free ( or significantly cheaper than sprays and biologicals) and that it can be used regularly without having to worry about pests developing a resistance. I'm assuming that the reason this technique isn't more widely adopted is because people just dont know about it or as Wierd stated earlier because there's no scientific studies done on it. Maybe as more people use this tech with good results it will catch on. Compost tea was once considered "snake oil" because there was a lack of scientific data to back it. It was mostly used by "permanent-culture hippies" ( no disrespect intended, I'd probably fall into that category to an extent) but the results were undeniable to the point that its now widely adopted and accepted as something that works.

If anyone has any first hand experience I'd love to hear about it and I'm sure many others would here would as well.

Sweetdog760 · Mar 1, 2019

Sorry about the double post, I can't edit my posts yet.

Wierd- I see you posted about this way back in 2012. Have you tried it with good results? I apologize if my previous response was seemed a little defensive. I thought you were suggesting that I was trying to sell something here. :respect:

New genius ipm technique developed by Leap Farms in Oregon

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