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Selecting F1 parents for F2 generation

K

kamyo

Well-known member
Veteran
So I have a handful of F1 PCK (mom) x PanamaDC (dad). Because there wasn't any selection done in the initial cross, I'd like to see what pops up in the F2 generation and maybe start selecting parents from there and breed toward particular desirable traits.

My understanding is that F2s will often show more variation than the F1 generation, but I'm curious if this is accurate, and if so, how much the parents used in making the F2s affect the traits found in the F2 generation. Would it be best to use multiple males and females to increase the variety?

In my case, the PCK mom was a very indica-dominant in its growth and flower structure. The PanamaDC was about 50/50. However, I'd like to see what I can do to increase the probability of finding something that leans more toward the Panama sativa side of things. Obviously, the initial selection would have helped here where I could have selected a Panama leaning PDC, but unfortunately that wasn't the case.

So the idea is to make and run the F2s to try to make my selections there and hopefully find some traits not present in the F1 generation. I'm mainly wondering about which parents to use to use or which traits to look for when selecting parents in f1 to make the f2 seeds.

I'm new to this, so if I have something wrong or I'm not correctly understanding how this works, I'd love to get some better information.
 
G

Gauss

Most people do an open pollination for their F1 (their home grown first generation) like you did, and the plants that come out in that generation are usually all over the place giving you a decent picture (given you have a bunch of seeds to look at) of the dom and recessive traits from each side. It's really hard to tell you over the internet what to pick out and find the path of least resistance to get the progeny that you are seeking. Usually the less often expressed traits are recessive and the more often expressed are dominant, obviously. In a nutshell, you can have parents that are super consistent but that doesn't mean it's progeny will be at all— in fact that's usually not the case from what I have observed. You have to make the crossed parents homozygous all over again if you want to have seedstock true to the plants it came from. You can't cross stuff and expect the best of both worlds off the bat, like you mentioned being aware of, but that is why.

F2 is where you've bred your selections and throw out the genetic chaff, and with every generation you weed out the less desirable traits and encourage desirable traits through selections. It's really important to not neglect picking good males, they also carry female expressions which you may or may not desire. You can reverse them with *gibberellic acid to see what kind of female traits they have if you want to delve that deeply, but IMO it's still important to have strong male expressions in your line.

By F3 you're looking at pretty consistent plants and can do some backcrossing to the original mother(s) and/or father(s), reincorporating more of the traits from the strain you want to raise in proportion to the other strain within the genetic line.
 
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NEED 4 SEED

NEED 4 SEED

Well-known member
I'm in front of nearly the same problem. I want to revive my favourite SSH phenotype but there is only one seedling left of the F1 generation from a cross with Blueberry and it looks weak. I grew out a lot of them, probably 50 and there were really only the first 3 that I had tested that stood out and had a good number of traits from the mother. The rest over the following years was garbage to me (regardless I made seeds with these too). I made outcrosses to other polyhybrid males with these three girls and also grew out some of that offspring. There wasn't much left of their grandmother's genes. My hope are the males from the F1 which openly pollinated other plants. Still poly-poly crosses, but I have more and younger seeds of them to test.
So, coming back to your problem, which plants to choose. I would have chosen the right plants if they were found in the test grows but there weren't any I would have selected and I only made the crosses with the undesirable plants to just keep a foot in the door, genetically...because I realized the old F1 seeds have lost their viability.

Because you don't look for a certain phenotype but want to explore the F2 realms you should select some F1 plants as parents that have traits you like, meaning: effect, smell, looks etc. It's up to you to give that thing a direction.
 
K

kamyo

Well-known member
Veteran
Thank you, Gauss and N4S.
NEED 4 SEED said:
Because you don't look for a certain phenotype but want to explore the F2 realms you should select some F1 plants as parents that have traits you like, meaning: effect, smell, looks etc. It's up to you to give that thing a direction.
Click to expand...

This is very helpful, thanks. It seems like it would be common sense to do this, but I was having a slightly difficult time because of the amount of variety I'd expect to see in the F2 generation.

On one hand, you have to select parents (and their traits) you like to create an F2 generation, which you obviously hope will show those traits. On the other hand, you're going to see a variety of traits from all parents/grandparents in the F2 generation (as far as I'm aware. This is my assumption).

Ideally, I'd like to see something more on the sativa side of Panama DC with the color from PCK and resin from DC. So perhaps looking for a colorful and resinous F1 mom and a stretchy thin leaf F1 dad would be a good idea, assuming I come across those in the F1 generation.

Of course, the best way will be to do it and see what I get. Best knowledge comes from experience.

Edit: it's also important to note that I'm not sure if I'll actually breed past the f2 generation. There's a good chance that I use those seeds to pheno hunt for a good mom. I don't have the space or resources for an actual project, but finding a good keeper mom is mandatory. From then, I'll have my mom for clones, but I'll also have 1/2 of the parents for further breeding if I ever do intend on taking the line further.
 
Elmer Bud

Elmer Bud

Genotype Sex Worker AKA strain whore
Veteran
G `day K

I suggest some reading up on Mendel and his peas .
That is the building block for understanding inheritance .

ZEwo2ta.jpg



Thanks for sharin

EB .
 
NEED 4 SEED

NEED 4 SEED

Well-known member
Mendel's laws don't help much in a 50 plants (a handful) per year setup, at least not in a 10 plant setup per strain (which equals the amount of 1 seedpack). The influence of the mathematical background noise is too high in small numbers. Yeah those weren't the right terms but you know what I want to say. The chance that what you see is not representative, is very high.
 
Lester Beans

Lester Beans

Frequent Flyer
Veteran
They way I do it is pick the two best females and all the males that don't suck, for whatever reason, be it structure, slow growth, lack of trichomes, earliest flowering, lack of smell, etc.

Then pollinate the two nicest females with all the males. This will lend to a somewhat diverse second generation. You should have a plan as to what you are looking for.

In your case pick the best Panama dominate males and females to make your third generation. Now you will be getting closer to picking what traits you want to lock down in the progeny.

I would recommend avoiding backcrossing. Bx is good to lock down single traits but not necessarily for locking in multiple traits. Breeding forward is always better IMHO.

This is just for making crosses for personal use. If making seeds for sale it is necessary to flower out the males, or reverse them, then line breed to see the affect the males have on the offspring. Once you know the traits the male and female passes you can work on stabilizing. Bigger numbers and more work to do it right. Not that many breeders today do this but they should.

Good luck with your cross.

@Elmer nice post!
 
Elmer Bud

Elmer Bud

Genotype Sex Worker AKA strain whore
Veteran
NEED 4 SEED said:
Mendel's laws don't help much in a 50 plants (a handful) per year setup, at least not in a 10 plant setup per strain (which equals the amount of 1 seedpack). The influence of the mathematical background noise is too high in small numbers. Yeah those weren't the right terms but you know what I want to say. The chance that what you see is not representative, is very high.
Click to expand...

G `day N4S

OP asked about sorting through the F2s he made to find a Panama dominant hybrid .

Not asking about a pack of F1s .

Thanks for sharin

EB .
 
K

kamyo

Well-known member
Veteran
Good info, guys. Definitely just a little personal project and certainly not within the realm of breeding for the sake of releasing anything. I like the idea of finding a couple good females in F1 and as many dads as I can that don't suck.

As much as I sort of know what I want, I'm also curious to see what other special plants show up that maybe I wasn't expecting. Variety is the key for that and using multiple selected moms and dads seem to be the best way to accomplish it.
 
troutman

troutman

Seed Whore
It's best to not select in the F1's if you can avoid it. Otherwise, you may get rid of
something that would only show up in the F2 generation when segregation occurs.
Only get rid of defective plants like hermies or sick looking plants in the F1's.
 
G

Gauss

Nico Farmer said:
Gibberellic acid doesn t work too to reverse males...
Click to expand...

Pretty confident I'm not mistaken as I've seen it with my own eyes but could have been lied to I suppose. Wouldn't be the first time, but I'm inclined to believe they were being honest since they're a somewhat popular breeder to this day. I'll have to give it a shot for myself to say for sure now. Do you know for sure why it wouldn't work?
 
Nico Farmer

Nico Farmer

Well-known member
Gauss said:
Pretty confident I'm not mistaken as I've seen it with my own eyes but could have been lied to I suppose. Wouldn't be the first time, but I'm inclined to believe they were being honest since they're a somewhat popular breeder to this day. I'll have to give it a shot for myself to say for sure now. Do you know for sure why it wouldn't work?
Click to expand...

There is a thread here from Sam, with Chimera's posts and the good way to reverse male is to use florel or derivate (ethrel is the key).
 
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