"Mini PPK Grow" - Jacks 15-12-26 - Coco/Perlite
- Thread starter Ravenboy
- Start date
Sept 6 - LST on the plants in 1.5 L pots
I top only once, then train the plant using LST to cover the pot with horizontal stems. For me this has provided between 15 and 25 new tops, each of which will have its own cola.
I top at the 5th node. The thing is that the laterals BELOW the 5 node are all closer to the roots than the two tops (created by having topped the plant). So I have found that if i can get these too take off, they can be trained horizontally as the top new tops are being trained to go in opposite directions around the edge of the container.
So i start LST (by blending the main stem to horizontal) really early in order to expose these lower laterals to more light, AND to start sending the to new tops horizontally to the edge of the pot.
Before I start bending the stem over, I like to brace the bottom of the stem, where it hits the medium, in the opposite direction as i will pulling the stem over in order to start bending it to horizontal. This prevents the plant from being pulled out by the roots in response to the lateral force of the LST rigging that is causing the bend
I use loops of double sided velcro and wire. IN this photo you can see the brace at the bottom of the stem
In the next photo you can see the LST wire that is causing the stem to be pulled to horizontal, and the two new tops (to the left of the velcro loop)
MY goal is to get the two tops also tied down, so they are closer to horizontal before I transplant into the PPK. The nice thing about doing this now is that all LST rigging is attached to the top half of the 1.5L container. When i transplant to a PPK, LST is well under way, and none of the pre-existing LST rigging will interfere with the drip ring. I will be able to freely rotate the PPK pot 360 degrees without any LST wires hanging up on the drip ring hose. Later, branches will be tied to the outer rim of the PPK pot, the drip ring will have to be disconnected from the feed line to it, in order to rotate the PPK pot without also having to rotate the reservoir under it.
These have been growing under a Mars II custom all 6500K diode veg panel. The internode spacing is so tight its hard to fit a loop of velcro in there... a nice problem to have
I top only once, then train the plant using LST to cover the pot with horizontal stems. For me this has provided between 15 and 25 new tops, each of which will have its own cola.
I top at the 5th node. The thing is that the laterals BELOW the 5 node are all closer to the roots than the two tops (created by having topped the plant). So I have found that if i can get these too take off, they can be trained horizontally as the top new tops are being trained to go in opposite directions around the edge of the container.
So i start LST (by blending the main stem to horizontal) really early in order to expose these lower laterals to more light, AND to start sending the to new tops horizontally to the edge of the pot.
Before I start bending the stem over, I like to brace the bottom of the stem, where it hits the medium, in the opposite direction as i will pulling the stem over in order to start bending it to horizontal. This prevents the plant from being pulled out by the roots in response to the lateral force of the LST rigging that is causing the bend
I use loops of double sided velcro and wire. IN this photo you can see the brace at the bottom of the stem
In the next photo you can see the LST wire that is causing the stem to be pulled to horizontal, and the two new tops (to the left of the velcro loop)
MY goal is to get the two tops also tied down, so they are closer to horizontal before I transplant into the PPK. The nice thing about doing this now is that all LST rigging is attached to the top half of the 1.5L container. When i transplant to a PPK, LST is well under way, and none of the pre-existing LST rigging will interfere with the drip ring. I will be able to freely rotate the PPK pot 360 degrees without any LST wires hanging up on the drip ring hose. Later, branches will be tied to the outer rim of the PPK pot, the drip ring will have to be disconnected from the feed line to it, in order to rotate the PPK pot without also having to rotate the reservoir under it.
These have been growing under a Mars II custom all 6500K diode veg panel. The internode spacing is so tight its hard to fit a loop of velcro in there... a nice problem to have
After the tops have had their LST session
with the 1.5 liter pots, i cut them in half horizontally and tape them back together before filling with coco/perlite. Then as soon as i can I feed like crazy, three times a day by the time of transplanting into the PPKs. This will produce a nice set of water roots, which makes for an easy transition when transplanting into the PPK. I was feeding jacks and Floralicious plus, and GH Bioroot, which is why the roots are stained brown.
Wen i transplant into the PPK, i cut the tape, and "work" the bottom off, have to be gentle, there are roots growing through the bottom of the pot making it a bit hard to get off the coco/perlite...
then I plant the top of the 1.5 L pot with the plant, leaving the LST wiring in place. Later, when the plant is tied to the edge of the PPK, i will remove the LST rigging attached to the top of the 1.5 liter pot and remove the top half from the PPK.
these roots aren't ready for the PPK yet... this photo was taken on 9/6. I am feeding a liter of jacks to each plant, and doing it three times a daygetting them ready for the PPKs
Three days after these photos, all 4 had grown a lot and had lots of roots, so I transplanted them to the PPKs
with the 1.5 liter pots, i cut them in half horizontally and tape them back together before filling with coco/perlite. Then as soon as i can I feed like crazy, three times a day by the time of transplanting into the PPKs. This will produce a nice set of water roots, which makes for an easy transition when transplanting into the PPK. I was feeding jacks and Floralicious plus, and GH Bioroot, which is why the roots are stained brown.
Wen i transplant into the PPK, i cut the tape, and "work" the bottom off, have to be gentle, there are roots growing through the bottom of the pot making it a bit hard to get off the coco/perlite...
then I plant the top of the 1.5 L pot with the plant, leaving the LST wiring in place. Later, when the plant is tied to the edge of the PPK, i will remove the LST rigging attached to the top of the 1.5 liter pot and remove the top half from the PPK.
these roots aren't ready for the PPK yet... this photo was taken on 9/6. I am feeding a liter of jacks to each plant, and doing it three times a daygetting them ready for the PPKs
Three days after these photos, all 4 had grown a lot and had lots of roots, so I transplanted them to the PPKs
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so thats a lot of photos. I have more, from the last two days... and will post them a little later
everything still going very well. AS the plants are getting bigger, the growth rate is happening even faster.... one has been in a PPK for 10 days now, and with the LST i have been giving it, it nearly covers the entire PPK pot yet its probably only 5 inches high due to the main lower laterals and two tops being LSTd to horizontal - I'd say it will be ready to flip in ten more days. maybe less. the first 4 PPK plants are all sexually mature (growing alternating lateral branches) , so could be flipped any time.
The Kiwi seeds Mount Cook is new for me, i know this plant can get massive.... I am a little concerned about vegging too long - in a PPK i have no idea HOW MUCH and HOW FAST these will stretch after the flip
everything still going very well. AS the plants are getting bigger, the growth rate is happening even faster.... one has been in a PPK for 10 days now, and with the LST i have been giving it, it nearly covers the entire PPK pot yet its probably only 5 inches high due to the main lower laterals and two tops being LSTd to horizontal - I'd say it will be ready to flip in ten more days. maybe less. the first 4 PPK plants are all sexually mature (growing alternating lateral branches) , so could be flipped any time.
The Kiwi seeds Mount Cook is new for me, i know this plant can get massive.... I am a little concerned about vegging too long - in a PPK i have no idea HOW MUCH and HOW FAST these will stretch after the flip
one of the PPK plants i LSTd a few days ago quickly had 8 tops growing.... that was on 9/6. 5 days later and it now has 15 tops reaching upward... and the two tops that resulted when I topped the plant at 4 nodes have barely reached the edge of the pot. This is because internode spacing is REALLY tight.
They haven't even begun their LST journey around the edges of the pot (in opposite directions)
growth rate is startlingly fast. In the past with hempies, i would flip when the two tops traveled 1/2 way around the pot - when the edge of the pot was 1/2 covered with LST from the two main tops. and that would give me around 15 to 25 tops.
the way things are going with these PPKS, If i grow that far around the pot edge they will be WAY more than 25 tops...
i am running 600w actual draw of LED now.... Shortly before the flip I change out my center light (6500k) for a full spectrum purple one that draws 450 watts. that tent will have 1050 watts actual draw of LED in bloom spectrum.... i have the light for it, but I i don't have room for 4 PPK plants each with 40 tops growing at this stupid-fast rate.
i will flip at less than 12" thats for certain. I am a bit height limited having a 2 meter tent, and the PPK reservoirs are tall, 5 gallon buckets. a 36 inch tall plant is getting a bit too big in this setup.
with my hempies they doubled in size during stretch. sometimes a bit more. With these PPKs i can see i should plan for having a height problem BEFORE i go into stretch
plants are about 5" heavily LSTd. soon i will stop wiring stuff down and let them free... perhaps flip at 10"
They haven't even begun their LST journey around the edges of the pot (in opposite directions)
growth rate is startlingly fast. In the past with hempies, i would flip when the two tops traveled 1/2 way around the pot - when the edge of the pot was 1/2 covered with LST from the two main tops. and that would give me around 15 to 25 tops.
the way things are going with these PPKS, If i grow that far around the pot edge they will be WAY more than 25 tops...
i am running 600w actual draw of LED now.... Shortly before the flip I change out my center light (6500k) for a full spectrum purple one that draws 450 watts. that tent will have 1050 watts actual draw of LED in bloom spectrum.... i have the light for it, but I i don't have room for 4 PPK plants each with 40 tops growing at this stupid-fast rate.
i will flip at less than 12" thats for certain. I am a bit height limited having a 2 meter tent, and the PPK reservoirs are tall, 5 gallon buckets. a 36 inch tall plant is getting a bit too big in this setup.
with my hempies they doubled in size during stretch. sometimes a bit more. With these PPKs i can see i should plan for having a height problem BEFORE i go into stretch
plants are about 5" heavily LSTd. soon i will stop wiring stuff down and let them free... perhaps flip at 10"
very well documented thread! thanks for trying the ppk!
i was wondering about your training technique. it appears that all your plants are seedlings. and you top above the 5th node leaving 10 main lateral branches.
do you ever use clones? and if so, where do you top? above the 10th node? leaving 10 main lateral branchs also. or perhaps since the plant is already in alternate phylotaxy and has a 6 point radial pattern you would top above the 6th or 12th node?
i was wondering about your training technique. it appears that all your plants are seedlings. and you top above the 5th node leaving 10 main lateral branches.
do you ever use clones? and if so, where do you top? above the 10th node? leaving 10 main lateral branchs also. or perhaps since the plant is already in alternate phylotaxy and has a 6 point radial pattern you would top above the 6th or 12th node?
Thanks for trying the PPK? thanks for documenting that it works with coco/perlite and for answering all my questions about that and the system in general
you ask good questions, i like how your mind works... you know all of this, but i am going into detail in case someone who doesn't LST is interested in learning how i think about it
ok.
my goal with LST is to have a sea of green covering the pot. So if the laterals below where I top arent given light soon after toping, they won't thrive and won't get to the edge of the pot when they are tied horizontally. i mean they won't provide enough new tops (later) if you don't start the main stem bending soon after topping.
so from seed you have ten laterals below where you topped, and of course they aren't in alternative phyllotaxy - this is a seedling - so you have a good chance of sending a few to the sides of the pot, and you can let a few just grow and become tops with out listing except to move them into even spacing.
my goal is to have the lower laterals at the edge of the pot about the same time as the two tops (that resulted from having topped the plant at 5 nodes) hit the edge of the pot. then i have good coverage, and can continue to tie the two tops heading in opposite directions around the pot, while i continue to tie the laterals and lead them around the edge of the pot. when i decide coverage is good, i stop tying, and at that point the tips of the two top and the tips of the laterals start out heading toward the light, all at the same height above the edge of the pot. when that happens i start training the center of the pot, to keep the canopy even
ok so for seedlings or clones i want the same kind of sea of green
for me its about the timing of the lower laterals and the two tops going horizontal and reaching the edge of the pot at the same time.
i don't grow from clones, i cant keep mothers, to risky for me to buy clones here. but from clones the timing of the topping is the key... you want enough laterals below where you topped so you get good LST coverage of that area of the pot. but you don't want to top so late that the two tops already are at the edge of the pot when you've made that first main stem LST bend. what will happen then is that there will be a LOT more new tops on that side of the pot than on the sides being covered by the laterals, and the new tops from the two tops being trained around the edge of the pot will have more time to grow than the new tops from the laterals. this results in an uneven canopy with a higher number of larger tops on 1/2 of the bucket. it still would work, but requires more training and such things to get the canopy even, which prolongs veg time, yada yada
with a clone i would try for 6 or 8 nodes before topping. you want to have several lower laterals - not all turn into good candidates for sending to the edge of the pot. I like to send the best three to the edge of the pot. some new tops start out pointing DOWN, and never recover, unless you see it and help them to decide to turn up.
the horizontal laterals need to grow new tops at the same rate as whats with those being produced by the two main stems on the other side of the pot. they CAN do so, they are closer to the roots than those new tops on the other side of the pot. in fact many times one of the laterals becomes the main top These lower laterals are closer to the roots, the tips of the lower laterals can outpace the actual two tops once horizontal LST is stopped.
something i didn't mention is that LST also requires you tuck fan leaves a LOT so that the new tops are getting light. especially on those lower laterals.... i tuck several times a day because I now have the time, i am not hand watering. more tucking - more even canopy.... more tops - some just stall and never amount to much, so i try to ge=ive them all a good change of making it by getting them light as soon as possible.
i wish i had the space and height to a vertical LED grow. then i would grow trees and get out of the pot bonsai i am doing now.
you ask good questions, i like how your mind works... you know all of this, but i am going into detail in case someone who doesn't LST is interested in learning how i think about it
ok.
my goal with LST is to have a sea of green covering the pot. So if the laterals below where I top arent given light soon after toping, they won't thrive and won't get to the edge of the pot when they are tied horizontally. i mean they won't provide enough new tops (later) if you don't start the main stem bending soon after topping.
so from seed you have ten laterals below where you topped, and of course they aren't in alternative phyllotaxy - this is a seedling - so you have a good chance of sending a few to the sides of the pot, and you can let a few just grow and become tops with out listing except to move them into even spacing.
my goal is to have the lower laterals at the edge of the pot about the same time as the two tops (that resulted from having topped the plant at 5 nodes) hit the edge of the pot. then i have good coverage, and can continue to tie the two tops heading in opposite directions around the pot, while i continue to tie the laterals and lead them around the edge of the pot. when i decide coverage is good, i stop tying, and at that point the tips of the two top and the tips of the laterals start out heading toward the light, all at the same height above the edge of the pot. when that happens i start training the center of the pot, to keep the canopy even
ok so for seedlings or clones i want the same kind of sea of green
for me its about the timing of the lower laterals and the two tops going horizontal and reaching the edge of the pot at the same time.
i don't grow from clones, i cant keep mothers, to risky for me to buy clones here. but from clones the timing of the topping is the key... you want enough laterals below where you topped so you get good LST coverage of that area of the pot. but you don't want to top so late that the two tops already are at the edge of the pot when you've made that first main stem LST bend. what will happen then is that there will be a LOT more new tops on that side of the pot than on the sides being covered by the laterals, and the new tops from the two tops being trained around the edge of the pot will have more time to grow than the new tops from the laterals. this results in an uneven canopy with a higher number of larger tops on 1/2 of the bucket. it still would work, but requires more training and such things to get the canopy even, which prolongs veg time, yada yada
with a clone i would try for 6 or 8 nodes before topping. you want to have several lower laterals - not all turn into good candidates for sending to the edge of the pot. I like to send the best three to the edge of the pot. some new tops start out pointing DOWN, and never recover, unless you see it and help them to decide to turn up.
the horizontal laterals need to grow new tops at the same rate as whats with those being produced by the two main stems on the other side of the pot. they CAN do so, they are closer to the roots than those new tops on the other side of the pot. in fact many times one of the laterals becomes the main top These lower laterals are closer to the roots, the tips of the lower laterals can outpace the actual two tops once horizontal LST is stopped.
something i didn't mention is that LST also requires you tuck fan leaves a LOT so that the new tops are getting light. especially on those lower laterals.... i tuck several times a day because I now have the time, i am not hand watering. more tucking - more even canopy.... more tops - some just stall and never amount to much, so i try to ge=ive them all a good change of making it by getting them light as soon as possible.
i wish i had the space and height to a vertical LED grow. then i would grow trees and get out of the pot bonsai i am doing now.
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Also D9,
I was thinking about drainage....
is there any reason why holes in the buckets bottom PLUS a wick wouldn't work?
the wick would still provide a lowered PWT would it not? and it would still wick up moisture... so the goals of the tailpiece are still met.
and the extra holes means not all drained fluid has to go thru the one tailpiece.
I designed my PPK medium for pulse feeds... I run my PPKs with an inch of 100% perlite in the bucket bottom, covered with screen...
this provides a LARGE area for the coco/perlite to drain INTO. but then that perlite bottom gets drained out the tailpiece, and roots follow that moisture. and clogs happen.
with drainage holes in the pot bottom, the roots wouldn't follow ALL the water out the tailpiece, they would follow the water to wherever it was draining.... and it would just drain like any coco/perlite DTW with some fluid still draining out the tailpiece, but WAAAAY less.
but if that screws up the lowering of the PWT, then its not worth doing
your thoughts?
I was thinking about drainage....
is there any reason why holes in the buckets bottom PLUS a wick wouldn't work?
the wick would still provide a lowered PWT would it not? and it would still wick up moisture... so the goals of the tailpiece are still met.
and the extra holes means not all drained fluid has to go thru the one tailpiece.
I designed my PPK medium for pulse feeds... I run my PPKs with an inch of 100% perlite in the bucket bottom, covered with screen...
this provides a LARGE area for the coco/perlite to drain INTO. but then that perlite bottom gets drained out the tailpiece, and roots follow that moisture. and clogs happen.
with drainage holes in the pot bottom, the roots wouldn't follow ALL the water out the tailpiece, they would follow the water to wherever it was draining.... and it would just drain like any coco/perlite DTW with some fluid still draining out the tailpiece, but WAAAAY less.
but if that screws up the lowering of the PWT, then its not worth doing
your thoughts?
the plants in the first 4 PPKs are using a LOT of water! 2 liters in two days. I just changed the reservoirs two days ago. this morning PH 5.9, after adding back tap water, PH 6.1.... ppm a little lower because plants are eating.... starting PPM was 800 (.5 scale - jacks and tap water) after the add back the air gap is the same, and PPMS about 740
next add back will be 600 PPM nutrients in tap water.
even the smaller plants used a liter in two days.
next add back will be 600 PPM nutrients in tap water.
even the smaller plants used a liter in two days.
nice detail on your technique!
i only grow from clones so when i was doing my version i would take off the bottom 3-4 to get a little clearance and then leave 6 main laterals, topping above #6 which would produce, when looking down on the plant, a 6 branch radial pattern leaving nothing just above each of the 6 to block light. let them grow out a little and tie down the ends so the tips were lower than the shoots along the branch.
then un-tie for while, re-tie again, un-tie, re-tie. it was some work but i found i could get an even canopy by the flip.
this was back in the days when i was using horizontal lighting over the plants. the last 12 years i have been using vertical lighting on big plants.
i'm still doing it right now but all that is about to change again.
as hard as i have tried to ignore these new de lights i find i cannot do so anymore. they are just too good.
so i am buying up slightly used sun system ac/de fixtures and at the end of my current run i will reconfigure for them.
this means that i will also have to adjust grow style and pruning, thinning techniques.
so it looks like some topping and training is going to be necessary to get a flatter and wider plant.
thanks for your input.
we have used drain holes before and they work well as long as your containers capture all the water from the top and direct it into the bottom without spillage.
you also don't want big open areas as these will incourage both evaporation and pests.
so there are 2 parts of the drain sequence. the first is the gravity driven portion, which will drain the medium only down to the point where the perched water table forms.
with the ppk the tailpiece takes over at that point and pulls the rest of the solution out of the medium.
the advantage to using holes is that the more water that is gravity drained the less water the tailpiece has to remove.
and the less influence it has on the tendency of roots to grow down it.
it is hard to find bucket lids that will not divert some water out onto the floor. using these 7 gal tuff tubs over a 3.5 gal bucket it is difficult with most bucket lids. there are some available that are completely indented but then are hard to take on and off repeatedly. most folks like the reusable lids from usplastics but they will direct water onto the floor.
but a 3.5 bucket in a 5 gal bucket or some other combination where the top container nest inside the bottom one is ideal for drilling a few 3/16" holes around the tailpiece opening.
another advantage of using supplemental drain holes is that they break the surface tension on the surface of the water below them and sink and remix any surface precipitation that might occur.
feed your working reservoir via a float valve connected to an elevated mixing /volume tank and your add back and topping off days are over.
with experience you can steer the working part of the solution from the mixing tank by varying the nutrient amounts and ph adjustment.
for example, if i see 6.4-6.5 at 1250-1300 i will run a load of water only ph'ed to about 5.2 into the working part from the tank.
because it is being fed by a float valve the changes in the working part occur slowly and gently. it will have a very small immediate effect but over the course of a few days will correct to acceptable levels.
what you input and how much to correct is dependent upon your water supply, nutrient choice, uptake rates, environment, etc.
this allows me to go through an entire grow without doing a mass change out.
float valve!
there is no set duration or interval when watering as the needs change as the plant grows and the container fills with roots.
while i started out in veg with 15 seconds every 90 minutes. about a quart. i am now giving 8' plants 30 seconds every hour around the clock. about 1/2 gal.
