Maximizing efficiency in my close loop system?

Hello all and thanks for reading. I was reading the post a few down from mine called closed loop woes. I seem to be hitting the same issues as the poster but didn't want to hijack his post. I'm running a closed loop system with butane, but I feel like I am running it nowhere near as efficient as it should be. My only prior experience was running on a bhogart machine that was a little different but I was more of a helper. Anyways I will include my set up and method as well as my issues. Thank you so much for any advice. I've been a long time lurker learning a lot until now.

My system flow from start to finish--
Start at solvent storage vessel

Butane through cooling coil with dry ice and iso

From coil through 3\8 hose into top of material column

4"x36" jacketed column packed tight with dual ports on top, one for butane injection the other for recovery through manifold

Bottom of column has a ball valve going into
10" collection plate with jacketed base.

I have a 4 port manifold that I can separately recover from The collection pot and material column.

All recovery goes through manifold

Through sieve beads

Through recovery pump

Through condenser coil with dry ice and iso
Back into solvent storage vessel.

My method is as follows
I open butane storage dip tube, send it through the cold coil and up into the material column. I attempt to dump as much butane into the column before pressure becomes an issue. I then open ball valve to start dumping into collection chamber. From here out it feels like I'm failing..

Symptoms-
I can only get about 5# butane into column and stops. When I open the ball valve, sometimes it starts pouring through, sometimes not and I have to start recovery pump and open the path to the recovery. It will begin pulling more butane thru, but much like the other poster who inspired this, I end up with endless butane trickling through down to the collection chamber. Eventually it seems I was even getting a lot more butane stuck in the column.

My solvent tank is not in ice but I pre chill it before i start and it seems the dual condensor coils do a good job of chilling the butane down. I don't chill my column or base, I use the jackets for hot water for recovery. I don't want to go on writing longer than I have. But I'm hoping someone can maybe chime in and ask a few questions and maybe diagnose my problems. I feel like I'm not properly soaking the column and leaving way too much butane in the column that I end up recovering. My solvent tank holds 25 # of butane I believe so I feel like should be able to get that all through my column but only succeeded once. Wondering if hose\tank placement is fighting againts gravity too much? Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you and I will be here to answer any inquiries

Your problem is your tank is equalizing pressure with your system too fast and comes to a halt. Im assuming you're running pure butane. There's a few ways to fix this.

1. Use nitrogen. You can hook up a tank with a regulator to your solvent tank to boost the psi and send as much solvent as you'd like. You just have to vent it out before you start your recovery. Very cheap and effective.

2. DO NOT heat your collection base until its time to start recovering. In fact, if you can cool it first you should.

3. Add some propane. Your pressure will be higher, and you will be able to send your solvent thru the column as you'd like.

As far as solvent stuck in the material tube, you have to heat it up to vaporize it out. Or sacrifice the solvent and keep on going.

Thanks for the follow up. I've read a fair amount about using the nitrogen. I'm just wondering why we used to be able to run our last machine non stop with no issue. But as I said I was more of a helper so I didn't get to run it much. I will keep your advice in mind. I still need to dial in my tank volumes and make sure I'm getting enough butane through the column. I also read in the post I referred to about a vent line to allow the butane to get down to the bottom of the column. Curious about that

Eastcoaststrang said:

Thanks for the follow up. I've read a fair amount about using the nitrogen. I'm just wondering why we used to be able to run our last machine non stop with no issue. But as I said I was more of a helper so I didn't get to run it much. I will keep your advice in mind. I still need to dial in my tank volumes and make sure I'm getting enough butane through the column. I also read in the post I referred to about a vent line to allow the butane to get down to the bottom of the column. Curious about that

Click to expand...

There could be a lot of variables as to why your other machine was able to. Temperature being one (higher temperature = higher pressure), the butane could be different blend (more pressure)

Basically its all about pressure differences. You simply don't have enough pressure to push that amount of liquid thru the tube. Only a higher pressure blend, or nitro boost will do it.

You're not heating your chamber as you are trying to dump are you?

The vent line you're referring to is for bottom filled systems which yours is not.

In a proper working system, what would be the correct procedure from the time I open the Solvent tank until I open the ball valve between the column and chamber. I'm never really sure when to start the recovery pump and open up the path to the pump and solvent tank return. I usually just do it when butane movement has stalled from solvent tank to column and it starts ripping through the column into the chamber what should be the process when it's working correctly with my given setup. Again, thank you

No I'm not heating the chamber and infact next time going to use an ice bath to chill the column and base as I try to run it. Can you explain or provide a good reference for the nitrogen method ? As far as when I start the recovery pump and open up the recovery paths, it starts pulling a lot of solvent through with the ball valve open. I just feel like it's pulling right down the middle and not soaking. I'll see if the nitrogen setup is something I can add over where I'm helping out. Thanks thus far for your help

Eastcoaststrang said:

No I'm not heating the chamber and infact next time going to use an ice bath to chill the column and base as I try to run it. Can you explain or provide a good reference for the nitrogen method ? As far as when I start the recovery pump and open up the recovery paths, it starts pulling a lot of solvent through with the ball valve open. I just feel like it's pulling right down the middle and not soaking. I'll see if the nitrogen setup is something I can add over where I'm helping out. Thanks thus far for your help

Click to expand...

Nothing you're doing sounds wrong. Starting the recovery process when you're dumping is fine.

Chilling the column (as well as your injection) is going to slow your flow no matter what.

I don't really have a reference for using nitro but its pretty straight forward. Just backfill with it and vent it out until its gone.

Eastcoaststrang said:

Hello all and thanks for reading. I was reading the post a few down from mine called closed loop woes. I seem to be hitting the same issues as the poster but didn't want to hijack his post. I'm running a closed loop system with butane, but I feel like I am running it nowhere near as efficient as it should be. My only prior experience was running on a bhogart machine that was a little different but I was more of a helper. Anyways I will include my set up and method as well as my issues. Thank you so much for any advice. I've been a long time lurker learning a lot until now.

My system flow from start to finish--
Start at solvent storage vessel

Butane through cooling coil with dry ice and iso

From coil through 3\8 hose into top of material column

4"x36" jacketed column packed tight with dual ports on top, one for butane injection the other for recovery through manifold

Bottom of column has a ball valve going into
10" collection plate with jacketed base.

I have a 4 port manifold that I can separately recover from The collection pot and material column.

All recovery goes through manifold

Through sieve beads

Through recovery pump

Through condenser coil with dry ice and iso
Back into solvent storage vessel.

My method is as follows
I open butane storage dip tube, send it through the cold coil and up into the material column. I attempt to dump as much butane into the column before pressure becomes an issue. I then open ball valve to start dumping into collection chamber. From here out it feels like I'm failing..

Symptoms-
I can only get about 5# butane into column and stops. When I open the ball valve, sometimes it starts pouring through, sometimes not and I have to start recovery pump and open the path to the recovery. It will begin pulling more butane thru, but much like the other poster who inspired this, I end up with endless butane trickling through down to the collection chamber. Eventually it seems I was even getting a lot more butane stuck in the column.

My solvent tank is not in ice but I pre chill it before i start and it seems the dual condensor coils do a good job of chilling the butane down. I don't chill my column or base, I use the jackets for hot water for recovery. I don't want to go on writing longer than I have. But I'm hoping someone can maybe chime in and ask a few questions and maybe diagnose my problems. I feel like I'm not properly soaking the column and leaving way too much butane in the column that I end up recovering. My solvent tank holds 25 # of butane I believe so I feel like should be able to get that all through my column but only succeeded once. Wondering if hose\tank placement is fighting againts gravity too much? Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you and I will be here to answer any inquiries

Click to expand...

As I'm reading your system plumbing, once your system vaporizes some of the liquid, it has no where to go and prevents the liquid from flowing.

A Terpenator doesn't suffer those problems, because the top of the column and the top of the recovery tank are connected by a vent tube and the recovery pump is running during flooding.

A lot on my plate today, but this afternoon or tomorrow I'll draw a a schematic that shows how I plumb a mono and a bi-flow system, and post it.

^
https://terppextractors.com/blogs/tech-talk


""Top Flood or Bottom Flood Extraction? Bi-Directional.
June 05 2017, 1 Comment

There is a lot of debate on the decision to perform a top flood or bottom flood extraction method. Some might say bottom flood is "too complicated" or "unnecessary". Maybe even that it does not work as well. If the bottom flood method was performed properly they would not be saying anything of the sort.

However, there has always been a correct assumption that the oils and solvent should be washed down the column assisted by gravity. Nonetheless a bottom flood should be used to fill the column with solvent and saturate the material properly for a reliable, high yield extraction. This is where the two methods (top flood and bottom flood) can join forces to use the same force, gravity, to evenly saturate the material and wash the oil and solvent down to the collection chamber afterward.

In order for oils to be dissolved from plant material, the material must be saturated. With dry plant material packed in the column tightly and/or unevenly liquid solvent does not penetrate the plant material evenly when gravity's effects come into play. The liquid will move through the path of least resistance, meaning if there is no opposing force the liquid will move down towards the collection pot without trying to spread out and permeate the material. The oils will only get picked up if they come into contact with the liquid solvent and a wider diameter column can make this problem worse.

This can be easily demonstrated with a pot of dry soil and some liquid water ("the universal solvent"). The dry soil is somewhat "hydrophobic" and repels the liquid water. When quickly washing water over the top of the pot, the water gets pulled down by gravity and flows down the path of least resistance. This washes down any loose particles in the path, opening it up, lessening the resistance of that path. You could imagine how a lot of water could go through the container onto the ground without really achieving it's purpose (wetting down the soil). If the container of dry soil was pushed down into a bucket of water, the water would quickly saturate it because of the force of gravity keeping it in contact with the soil even though it would try to repel the water. This would ensure an even and full saturation of the soil in a quick period of time with very little or no water wasted.

Filling liquid solvent into the plant material column from the bottom to the top ensures a full and even saturation of the product in a quick manner with an easily measurable amount. This enables the extraction operator to determine a more precise amount of solvent to be used, allowing recovery times to be reduced while yield is maximized. Washing too much solvent through the column can lead to longer recovery times and possibly more undesirable compounds being picked up by the solvent.

A benefit of having the "liquid" line, which is overlooked in some cases, is the ability to drain the column with the line at the top open to the collection pot. This allows for almost all of the solvent in the column to drain down to the collection pot. When the top of the column is sealed off, the liquid draining down is not going to make it very far. For example: when a finger is placed on top of a straw full of liquid and the straw is lifted out of the liquid, it may be noticed that the liquid stays in the straw until the finger is removed from the top.

When allowing the solvent to drain from the material column, all of the oil-laden solvent does not drain down to the collection pot. With a Bi-Directional Modification, a top rinse can be performed to wash this oil left behind down the column by top flooding the column through the bi-directional valve up the "liquid" line with the "liquid" valve closed and the "dump" valve open. This also has the benefit of washing free any oil that could have possibly made its way into the "liquid" line.

A method implementing a bottom flood followed by a top flood is the most efficient method of extraction that can be performed on dry plant material to ensure the fastest, most precise, and highest yielding extraction possible.

Check out our Bi-Directional Modification Kit and/or give us a call to add it to your system."



MK III Terpenator Bi-Directional Operation Guide,

(PDF)https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0..._-_1-18-17_Revision_1.pdf?4856698321912912097



Flood from the bottom of the material column with a top vent,

"3.11 Open Input Valve #4.
• You will notice the scale reading going down as butane fills the column.

3.12 When you feel liquid reach the top of the column, or see it in the sight glass, record the amount of butane required to fill the column as “Column Soak Weight” (E.g. 1LB) and close Input Valve #4.

3.13 Open Dump Valve #3 to allow the column to drain down to the collection pot."

Thank you for all of that excerpt input. This evening when I’m done with lab work I will sit down and digest all of that and come back with any questions or concerns. Sounds like a few small modifications should get me on a better track. Thank you again, I hope to become a contributing member to this forum as I learn more. I’ve been given a great opportunity for work and it’s up to me to excel and learn everything I can. Thanks again

Here is the bi-flow Terpenator schematic