DIY Hybrid LED/PL-L Luminaire

rives · Apr 29, 2012

PetFlora said:
Here's a thought. Cree now offers XP-E in both Neutral and Warm White. Both are very broad spectrum, approaching ideal blend (but still needing far red for flower). "Could" you (would you consider) replace the PL-L with them?

No, I wouldn't. Using a higher technology solution when a more effective, cheaper solution exists doesn't make sense to me - I am trying to optimize the spectrum for the plants, not simply use led's for the sake of using leds.

Just a quick look shows that mid-bin warm-white XP-G's mounted on MCPCB run @ $5 each in the quantities needed to replace those 4 PL-L's. It would take around 35 of the XP-G's running at 600ma (almost 2 watts) to generate the same light as one PL-L, and the XP-Gs (mid-level bin) are still only putting out about 83% of the lumens per watt that the PL-L's do. So....approximately $1500 for (4) led bars by the time you get drivers, sinks, fans, and misc. parts, only to pull more power than $175 for the PL-L's. Additionally, I don't know how well the 115 degree lensing of the XP-G's would work with the 170 degree lenses on the GD+'s.

It would take a hell of a long time for the longer life of the led's to make up for almost 9x the initial cost and higher power consumption! I think this all makes sense - I'm still groggy from no sleep last night.

Assumptions - 55w PL-L's make @ 4200 mean lumens. Mid-bin XP-G's make @ 87 lumens per watt @ 350ma, and about 121 at 600ma. 600ma x 3.2v = 1.92 watts. 4200 lumens/121=35 leds to replace (1) PL-L lamp.

GP73LPC · Apr 30, 2012

congrats on the Stickey rives

heady blunts · Apr 30, 2012

so what's been growing under there?

rives · May 1, 2012

heady blunts said:
so what's been growing under there?

Here we go with my "the sun was in my eyes" story. Actually, the first run went well except that I was growing from seed and only had one female. Even though the fixture was designed with scrogging in mind, I was pretty happy with the penetration of the lone female (sounds like we might be discussing something else.....).

This run, however, has been a nightmare. I was really hoping to get a good run from clones, but about a week prior to the planned move to under the light, the borg came to visit. After getting those bastards beaten down, time was short for getting the blumats properly set before I had to leave town. When I returned, I found that not only had the blumats still been set too wet, but the batteries in my furnace thermostat gave up, and it had defaulted to 50 degrees for somewhere up to 11 days. I seriously considered euthanasia, but finally decided to let them go and see what happened. Still no screen - I just LST'd them in case I needed to pull one out. All in all, they are coming around better than I had hoped. Testimony to SOTF420's Sweet Tooth!

The first two pictures are at 49 days on the first run, and the last two are at 36 days on the second run.

NE1 · May 1, 2012

Heey rives, i really like the combi-light you've build (seems like your plants do too

). You got me thinking about supporting my 150W CMH with red and far red LEDs. Can i ask you, if i have any questions? Seems like you know a lot (or at least where to look) about (DIY) LED...
All the best for your grows. I'm tagged

NE1

rives · May 2, 2012

NE1 said:
Heey rives, i really like the combi-light you've build (seems like your plants do too ). You got me thinking about supporting my 150W CMH with red and far red LEDs. Can i ask you, if i have any questions? Seems like you know a lot (or at least where to look) about (DIY) LED...
All the best for your grows. I'm tagged
NE1

I'd be happy to help with whatever I can. Do a search for knna's posts, here and elsewhere. He's a very knowledgeable guy on LED's and lighting in general. Have you seen the Philips 220 & 315 watt CDM Elite line of lamps/ballasts? They have an amazing spectrum, and unfortunately, a price to match.

heady blunts · May 2, 2012

they look pretty good considering the setbacks. thanks for sharing pics. i always find it hard to post up the less than perfect stuff, although i think it's important to share our failures along w/ our successes, for the good of the community and all that.

:respect:

rives · May 2, 2012

Thanks, Heady. I've actually been very surprised at how well those girls have recovered - I should have snapped some pictures of them wet, cold, and miserable when I returned home, but it wasn't anything that I wanted to record! Ah well, there's always next time.

PetFlora · May 2, 2012

Not to belabor the issue, or to start something, (I use HO T5s) but according to Cree. their new Warm Whites (2.5 X 2.5mm) produce 107 lm/w @350mA @ 85^s, basically doubling the lumen per dollar. Their SDG is very nice, covering >95% of PAR to roughly 640.

Still, I do not have any idea how that parts out into a cost figure

jubiare · May 2, 2012

Hey Rives, nice looking flowers for sure!!!

Tech question, have you managed to get your Osram 660nm higher or middle bin? Or it's just lower? (T1, T2 or T3).
bEST

rives · May 2, 2012

PetFlora said:
Not to belabor the issue, or to start something, (I use HO T5s) but according to Cree. their new Warm Whites (2.5 X 2.5mm) produce 107 lm/w @350mA @ 85^s, basically doubling the lumen per dollar. Their SDG is very nice, covering >95% of PAR to roughly 640.

Still, I do not have any idea how that parts out into a cost figure

Not to worry, PF - I like debating the pluses & minuses. I was just going by the information that I had pulled up on the Cree - these thing continue to develop at a daily rate, it seems. That increase certainly helps, but assuming that the 20% jump is proportionate at higher current levels, that would save about 7 leds per bar. That isn't enough to drop you to one driver, so the cost drops about $35-40 each. I think that on a different design fixture, where the various leds are mixed & matched across a large circuit board, then they are probably a good alternative. For something like my light, in my view they either have to have something that the cheaper alternatives cannot provide (like supplementing the 660nm region), or be at least vaguely comparable in cost.

jubiare said:
Hey Rives, nice looking flowers for sure!!!

Tech question, have you managed to get your Osram 660nm higher or middle bin? Or it's just lower? (T1, T2 or T3).
bEST

I bought mine from Mouser, who doesn't sell by bin. I thought that when I bought them, there was something to the effect of them being either T2 or T3, but I was unable to find anything on their site about when I just checked - I know there was nothing on them or in the packaging to identify the bin level. Knna was the only one that I know of who was selling them by the bin, and his marketer was out of stock when I bought them.

jubiare · May 2, 2012

rives said:
I bought mine from Mouser, who doesn't sell by bin. I thought that when I bought them, there was something to the effect of them being either T2 or T3, but I was unable to find anything on their site about when I just checked - I know there was nothing on them or in the packaging to identify the bin level. Knna was the only one that I know of who was selling them by the bin, and his marketer was out of stock when I bought them.

Same here from similar vendor... they don't even tell you do they! they just package them up like whatever...
I enquired them and after long time I was told theY sent me T1 and they have two full reel and they are both T1.... OH DEAR.

sx646522 · May 9, 2012

Hi rives,

I don't believe I've popped in here to say 'great work, and thanks for sharing' previously, so I shall do so now:

Great work, and thanks for sharing! :tiphat:

You are a credit to your profession, good sir.

rives said:
Even though the fixture was designed with scrogging in mind...

So, now that you've used it for awhile, what do you think of the coverage vs. your Lumi? Any shaded areas ~4" up? Still your current height?

rives said:
...I was pretty happy with the penetration of the lone female (sounds like we might be discussing something else.....).

Yes, well...that's what alcohol is for. :yummy:

(Not necessarily a bad thing, I suppose...)

rives said:
This run, however, has been a nightmare.

Those pics look pretty good to me, all things considered. Hopefully, you're on track for a nice finish!

rives said:
420ish, the current lamps that are installed are Osram 2700k, but I have a pretty wide selection in inventory including 3000k and 4100k. In looking at the SPD charts for the lamps, they all have great spectral distributions. Even the very red-oriented lamps have plenty of blue, and the only place that they are weak is in far-red.

A good tri-phosphor does cover specific r/g/b (and some yellow) bands nicely, though it does tend to spike a bit and then drop to nothing for adjacent wavelengths (vs. white LEDs, for example). Not necessarily bad, just different. It does give one the ability to 'tune' the white spectrums by simply switching bulbs, which is handy.

Hey rives, still using the 2700s, correct? Any stretching evident with all those red LEDs vs. using a cooler white PL-L?

Also, all four-pin fluoros (like PL-L) are dimmable by nature. Have you thought about incorporating some sort of dimming control in your fixture for the tubes? (I see switches, but no other controls). That would provide more flexibility, no doubt. No need to run all those PL-L watts at full tilt when you're also able to scale back on the reds, I'd warrant.

Which ballasts (electronic, vs. magnetic - make/model?) did you use for those? Just curious.

---

Overall, very nice work and a nice share, mate! I think you'd have a viable side business if you wanted from some folks.

Regards,

-SX

rives · May 9, 2012

Hi sx, appreciate you stopping in and the kind words.

I like the coverage of this far better than the ES330, but that was really the design criteria. While the Lumi has (2) 9"x9" panels, it is still far closer to a point source (or two) than this unit. The ES330 has a distinct advantage with full height plants, but I prefer to either scrog or LST, and the form factor of most commercial fixtures doesn't work well with those styles of growing. No, there are no shaded areas - to the eye and my rudimentary light meter, the illumination is very homogeneous.

Yes, I'm still using the 2700k lamps. Stretch has been virtually non-existent, but the vegging was done without the LEDs turned on. From what I've seen of the SPD charts, any of the available PL-L spectrums seem to have enough blue that stretching isn't a factor. I've used everything from 2700k to 4100k with similar results.

I kicked around the idea of dimming the PL-Ls, but my experience with my previous PL-L fixture (6 x 55w) dissuaded me from going to that level of complexity. I start out with 110w and progressively kick on extra banks as the plants develop. I used the Fulham Workhorse 5 electronic ballasts - I like using the kits from AH Supply, they are very complete, nicely priced, and have a pretty versatile reflector with them. I would like to find a ballast with a higher ballast factor, but I haven't seen any that have actually been tested on the PL-L lamps. There are some that do very well with T5's, but that performance doesn't necessarily transfer to what appear to be a very similar lamp.

Here are what the girls are looking like with a couple of weeks left to go. Their capacity for recovering from an ugly childhood amazes me - it's hard to tell in the picture, but most of those buds are approaching 2" in diameter at the base. I'm not sure if it is due to the genetics or the lighting, but I'm very happy that I decided not to chop them and start over!

Psilocybe · May 25, 2012

Excellent work rives, your fixture looks amazing!

rives · May 25, 2012

Thank you, Psilocybe. Welcome to ICMag!

rives · May 26, 2012

Here's what the gals are looking like at 63 days. They are substantially overdue, apparently trying to make up for their problematic youth. On the good side, they have recovered amazingly well and are turning into some plump little mama's. I'm not sure what to think of the "cotton tops" on a number of the buds - in the past I've always attributed it to the fixture being too close and bleaching the plant, but I didn't see any of it on the last run and there has actually been more distance between the plant and the fixture this time.

GP73LPC · May 30, 2012

looking nice :tiphat:

2000pm · May 31, 2012

Lookin dank! How long you planning on taking them?

rives · May 31, 2012

I cut them this morning, so 67 days. My house, to quote SOTF, was reeking of grapefruity sweetness today. It was like a giant citrus deodorizer - beats the hell out of skunk!

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