Too much nutes?

How long has this problem been going on? about 4/5 weeks
What STRAIN are you growing?c99 x a11
What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?)seed
What is the age of your plants?40 days flower
How Tall are the plants?18"
What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?flower
What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc)loose sog
What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot)1 per 1 gal
What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using?(percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?)15% perlite,25% peat,60% compost,1/2c espoma bulb-tone, 2t dol. lime
What Nutrient's are you using?How much of each with how much water? How Often? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*alaska fish 5-1-1, morbloom 0-10-10. 1T each/gal
What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used?
What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"?
What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH pen?
How often are you watering? once/week
When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding? 3 weeks ago and each of the 2 previous weeks, none since
What size bulb are you using?400mh
What is the distance to the canopy?10"
What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity)40-50
What is the canopy temperature?85-90
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range)85-90/78
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)250 in-line
Is the fan blowing directly at plants?no
Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist?moist beneath surface
Is your water HARD or SOFT?hard
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water?tap
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched?no
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when?sprayed surface with neem 1 week ago
Are plant's infected with pest's?some fungas gnats

My plants were stunted & i read here that was a p, or was it a k? defiecency so i bought mor-bloom used it and they shot up about 2" within a week so i used it the following 2 weeks w/ fish emulsion. I thought i overdid it when these leaf problems apeared so i switched to just h20. They keep getting worse and i'm seeing brown dots, so now i'm not sure what the problem is. Its working its way up the plant. I have another plant in the same mix treated the same & it only shows some yellowing on the lower leaves. I've included an overall plus the leaves as it progresses. Thanks for the help.








These are the most current:

First up, you need to change to using a 400w HPS bulb - if the lamp you are using is a strightforward metal halide bulb, it isn't right for flowerinng under. This would explain your relatively small buds. These plants need light in the red end of the spectrum to produce good flowers. Pop out and buy one today, it wont cost you much and it'll be worth every penny.

Yellowing = Yep, probably too much nutrient. Have you tried thoroughly flushing out the soil under a tap for a while, to flush out any salting?

Else....

are you checking the pH? if there is a pH problem it will affect nutrient uptake. make sure you pH is around pH6.5. A small digital pH pen and calibration fluid wont be that expensive, if you dont have one, I recommend you get one.

40 days in to flowering you should be getting some yellowing and dying off of leaves lower down the plant anyway, so don't panic. The plant will absorb the goodness from these lower leaves and recycle it for flower production. Are these leaves normally out of the light, under the canopy? I'd be tempted to pull them off anyway, at this stage I doubt they are very important to the plant's lifecycle.

Think of blacking out the pots you are growing in. These look like they are translucent and this may affect the roots. You can black out the pots simply by wrapping tape around them

Pot also looks kind of small. This is the right size for short plants in a SOG. So you should be all right but do make sure they are draining propoerly from the bottom - you really dont want old water sitting in the bottom of the pots, you will end up with rotten roots.

Hope that helps!

limey said:

First up, you need to change to using a 400w HPS bulb - if the lamp you are using is a strightforward metal halide bulb, it isn't right for flowerinng under. This would explain your relatively small buds. These plants need light in the red end of the spectrum to produce good flowers. Pop out and buy one today, it wont cost you much and it'll be worth every penny.

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I'm using an eye hortilux blue mh. As for the small buds i think thats due to a nute deficiency/imbalance?, they were stunted until i added mor-bloom.

limey said:

Yellowing = Yep, probably too much nutrient. Have you tried thoroughly flushing out the soil under a tap for a while, to flush out any salting?

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No, being that this is organic except for the Muriate of Potash in the Mor-bloom i dont think salts could be a problem.

limey said:

Else....

are you checking the pH? if there is a pH problem it will affect nutrient uptake. make sure you pH is around pH6.5. A small digital pH pen and calibration fluid wont be that expensive, if you dont have one, I recommend you get one.

40 days in to flowering you should be getting some yellowing and dying off of leaves lower down the plant anyway, so don't panic. The plant will absorb the goodness from these lower leaves and recycle it for flower production. Are these leaves normally out of the light, under the canopy? I'd be tempted to pull them off anyway, at this stage I doubt they are very important to the plant's lifecycle.

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No, i'm not checking ph so that could possibly be an issue. However i have another plant started same time, same mix, same nutes and not showing this problem.I agree with the yellowing but, this started 4/5 weeks ago & i'm trying to figure out why. It doesnt look like normal yellowing from N deficiency.
Maybe i had a hot spot in my homemade mix?

limey said:

Think of blacking out the pots you are growing in. These look like they are translucent and this may affect the roots. You can black out the pots simply by wrapping tape around them

Pot also looks kind of small. This is the right size for short plants in a SOG. So you should be all right but do make sure they are draining propoerly from the bottom - you really dont want old water sitting in the bottom of the pots, you will end up with rotten roots.

Hope that helps!

Click to expand...

After i finish what i have in 1 gal jugs (w/ drainage holes) i'm going to start switching over to 2 1/2 gal solid plastic containers. This will be better for the roots and the overall health of my plants i think. Thanks for your help.

Mor Bloom is ridiculously acidic...don't use it until you can balance the PH.

Your pots are too small. Go to a 2-gallon pot size with nice fresh potting soil and better drainage, and monitor your runoff pH.
Your plant looks very healthy except for the low leaves yellowing, which could be related to age as much as a soil issue- your soil chemistry is probably outta wack since when a plant is too large for its home, rapid fluctuations in pH can occur.
If you cannot re-pot, cut or melt the corners off the milk jugs, leaving 1" diameter holes, to improve drainage and oxygenation to the root zone, and flush with a pH correct solution, finishing with a 1/2 strength Bloom fert.

You say next time you will use larger pots- you STILL need to keep the gallon jugs because an intermediate pot size, and a good re-potting schedule, both aids in canopy efficiency and prevents soil souring. Lime buffer in packaged soil mixes can only be counted on for the first 6 weeks or so, less if you are running acidic nutes or source water.

re: "I'm using an eye hortilux blue mh. As for the small buds i think thats due to a nute deficiency/imbalance?, they were stunted until i added mor-bloom."

Ted - this should be a great bulb for vegging under but it isn't right for flowering. As I said, go out and buy a High Pressure Sodium (HPS) bulb - these are the industry standard for flowering under. It will make all the difference, believe me.

It's less likely that a nute problem will cause small buds though this can cause other problems.

From what you say you need to start monitoring pH too.

Stinkyattic has given you some sound advice on pots etc, I'd follow it.

Best of luck!

limey said:

this should be a great bulb for vegging under but it isn't right for flowering. As I said, go out and buy a High Pressure Sodium (HPS) bulb - these are the industry standard for flowering under. It will make all the difference, believe me.

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MH are by no means bad for flowering under, that's not the kind of advice that should be given in the infirmary.

limey said:

From what you say you need to start monitoring pH too.

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This is extremely important.

bounty29 said:

MH are by no means bad for flowering under, that's not the kind of advice that should be given in the infirmary.

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It's not that they are 'bad', it's that they are FAR below optimal if you are aiming to produce, as I dare say we all are, the maximum quantity/quality product with the minimum electricity. Has it been done? sure. Is it considered standard practice? Not these days. HPS is going to give a lot better density and finish weight for the watts used than MH is.

thanks, stinky

Bounty29 - It's of course true that it's possible can flower under MH or even under incandescent bulbs - provided yield isn't the primary objective. The science is very widely discussed on this site so I wont go into details but, in summary, "blue" light - as given out by MH, for example - is great for root and leaf development but not efficient for flowering and fruiting. For flowering and fruiting, "red" light, which you get from HPS, for example, is much more efficent. Hence my advice that FarmerTed will get more bud by (inexpensively) converting to HPS.

If FarmerTed still wants to utilize the MH to add efficiency, he can easily do that by using his existing system up to the end of week 2 of flower to control stretch, and THEN switch to HPS. MH has a place in your flower room, but it is second fiddle to the HPS.

I tested the ph on these the best i could w/ ph drops. Both of these are in the same homemade organic mix, same water/feed schedule, same seed crop & same age. Watered w/ nute mix, let excess drain for a couple of minutes, then collected run-off and added drops. Ph for both was around 5.5. I checked my other plants and they were all the same so i dont know how much faith i would put in my ph tests. The first is the plant in ? The second is her healthier looking sister.



I'll try flushing tomorrow & see what happens. Three gals adjusted to 6-6.5 with apple cider vinegar sound about right?
One more pic for you. Their other sister grown in MG to compare to my homemade organic mix. She looks much better w/ no problems. Shes been in 12/12 two weeks longer because she reached flowering height that much quicker.


Thanks everybody.

farmer ted, dont listen to these fools, probably dont even have plants. that bottom is the plant pulling nitrogen from the leaf because it has none... DONT flush it, continue with what you were, this is GOOD, the plant will use its nitro supply making the smoke less harsh.

limey said:

First up, you need to change to using a 400w HPS bulb - if the lamp you are using is a strightforward metal halide bulb, it isn't right for flowerinng under. This would explain your relatively small buds. These plants need light in the red end of the spectrum to produce good flowers. Pop out and buy one today, it wont cost you much and it'll be worth every penny.

Yellowing = Yep, probably too much nutrient. Have you tried thoroughly flushing out the soil under a tap for a while, to flush out any salting?

Else....

Click to expand...

this dude is a moron, and is giving ALL BAD INFO. hps isnt any better, stay with your MH. NO your not using too much nutes, you plant is beautiful.


limey probably will tell u to water with bongwater next.

DIGITALHIPPY said:

farmer ted, dont listen to these fools, probably dont even have plants.

this dude is a moron, and is giving ALL BAD INFO. hps isnt any better, stay with your MH. NO your not using too much nutes, you plant is beautiful.

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Dude, WTF is your problem?
1) How can you not see the scorched tips presenting in pic#1 in the last set?
2) That damage is inconsistent with what you claim it is, which is ONLY the plant using stored N. That may be PART, but not ALL, of the problem. If that were the case, you would be seeing a gradual yellowing that appeared on more leaves further up the plant as well, to a greater extent than presents, and not just a tier of dead and dying leaves, and then a tier of deep green, cupped-under (=root bound) ones with reddening veins and scorched tips.
3) HPS is better than MH. This later in flower, for this crop, it's academic.
4) There's no need to call people names who do not agree with your diagnosis. It's less than mature. Seriously, GET OVER YOURSELF.

The OP reports pH 5.5.
Houston, we have a problem, and it's very likely aggravated, or even caused, by those plants having been in the same soil in the same pots for too long. You're going to want to do your waterings/feedings from here on out with pH corrected water so that your runoff reads about 6.5-6.7.

Plants that need nitrogen yellow, they don't brown and die.

HPS isn't better, it's different.

Having correct PH is crucial, and having a way of accurately testing it is very important until you really know what you're doing.

Digital, your an idiot. Please drown yourself in your AN. Thank You


BTW, I'll repeat. For anyone who cares to listen. MOR BLOOM is CRAZY ACIDIC.

Alaska MorBloom

Derived from Atlantic fish, PHOSPHORIC ACID and potash, Alaska MorBloom (0-10-10) stimulates exceptional budding and blooming in plants. Brightens colors in flowers and foliage and promotes vigorous root growth, too! Mix 1-3 tbsp. / gallon of water to encourage budding in flowers, vegetables and ornamental houseplants.

It's MAIN ingredient IS ACID !! The stuff is good but use with caution.

stinkyattic said:

Dude, WTF is your problem?
1) How can you not see the scorched tips presenting in pic#1 in the last set?
2) That damage is inconsistent with what you claim it is, which is ONLY the plant using stored N. That may be PART, but not ALL, of the problem. If that were the case, you would be seeing a gradual yellowing that appeared on more leaves further up the plant as well, to a greater extent than presents, and not just a tier of dead and dying leaves, and then a tier of deep green, cupped-under (=root bound) ones with reddening veins and scorched tips.

The OP reports pH 5.5.
Houston, we have a problem, and it's very likely aggravated, or even caused, by those plants having been in the same soil in the same pots for too long. You're going to want to do your waterings/feedings from here on out with pH corrected water so that your runoff reads about 6.5-6.7.

Click to expand...

this guy is about to f up his plant from bad advice is my problem.
1&2)
i didnt catch the PH issue earlier because he didnt post ph, and your right about running correct ph feed throught it, the plant is feeding so much its fuckin up the ph, you need to watch it, because the ph is whats locking out the N making it pull from leaf, the ph could also be to cause for the slight burn on the tip. if anything run 10-20% higher ppm and the ph wont sink so fast.

stinkyattic said:

3) HPS is better than MH. This later in flower, for this crop, it's academic.
4) There's no need to call people names who do not agree with your diagnosis. It's less than mature. Seriously, GET OVER YOURSELF.

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3) HPS isnt better, there both equal, but he dosent have to go buy somthing just to finish the crop. MH growth has different charachteristics the HPS growth, if youve grown for as many years as me YOUD KNOW THAT.
besides the horti superblue is a superb bulb. the plants isnt going to know the differance, and about nothing in this grow justifies buying a $80+ bulb for 2 measly weeks, ill agree the hps spectrum is 'good for flower' but at the cost it dosent matter for this guy who only has a small grow.

4) so your saying a moron isnt a moron? limeys telling stories.im not starting shit with any of you and i dont need to "get over myself" you just need more experiance, not everything thats said on a board is solid, you need to calm down grow some more pot, and shit, try some wacky things maybe youll learn somthing. how many years do you have under your belt Jr?

I'm seeing ph runoff 5.5 using hard tap water right? Too much calcium from hard water will lock out mag. Too acidic nute solution during flower, will cause a p/k lockout, which looks like a little of that starting as well. Nute solution going in should have a ph of 6.2-6.5 when using this soil mix, during flower.

My recommendation...water with straight tap with 1/4tsp epsom/gal. No nutes this week. If your water is hard, the ph should be about 7-8. Resume normal schedule with half-2/3 nute strength you were using, with the added epsom. Flushing now would IMO cause more harm than good. Considering strain.

My tap water is similar, and I have adjusted to suit my own needs. You will have to do the same. Good luck!

"Jr?" Now REALLY I can say: Get over yourself.

"The difference is academic" MEANS there's no point in buying a new bulb. Sorry, I should not use such obscure colloquialisms here it seems, since someone's inevitably going to get his shorts in a bunch when he misinterprets them.

Years in? Let's see, should we count only weed or should we also count years in working full time at a hydroponic culinary herb nursery? How about the hard sciences degree on top of that, and the time spent running a water chemistry lab? How about the years also spent teaching indoor techniques to the local med community?

You sound like an arrogant, stuck up, knowitall every time you start calling people names. Whether you ARE an arrogant stuck up knowitall is not for me to judge, since I've never met you (and don't care to), but that's how you come across. Whether or not you think someone is a moron, there are really MUCH nicer ways to correct their mistakes than to start throwing sand at them... now who were you calling Jr?

Now for the last time: Cool your jets, and try the view from somewhere other than that high horse. And just leave me the FUCK alone.

With you stinky. All the grow advice I have read that you have given has been thoroughly sound and generously given

Dont rise to this digitalhippy's bad manners. I don't much appreciate being referred to as a "moron" and, with 14 yearsof growing under my belt, I can't say I care much about digital's opinions either. Let's leave digital to stew in their own misery...

You guys are killing me, can i assign one plant per person & see which one comes out on top? lol

stinkyattic said:

The OP reports pH 5.5.
Houston, we have a problem, and it's very likely aggravated, or even caused, by those plants having been in the same soil in the same pots for too long. You're going to want to do your waterings/feedings from here on out with pH corrected water so that your runoff reads about 6.5-6.7.

Click to expand...

These plants went into these pots w/ this soil about a week b4 flower so i wouldnt think they've been in them too long. The second part sounds reasonable, i'll go along with that.

Johnny Rotten said:

BTW, I'll repeat. For anyone who cares to listen. MOR BLOOM is CRAZY ACIDIC.

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I hear you on this one, the fish emulsion also. Mixed w/ water they were both around 5.5.

DIGITALHIPPY said:

i didnt catch the PH issue earlier because he didnt post ph, and your right about running correct ph feed throught it, the plant is feeding so much its fuckin up the ph, you need to watch it, because the ph is whats locking out the N making it pull from leaf, the ph could also be to cause for the slight burn on the tip. if anything run 10-20% higher ppm and the ph wont sink so fast.

Click to expand...

I dont know how accurate my ph is, i checked all my plants, the good & the bad and they all read the same, 5.5 when using nutes. More at a corrected ph so it does'nt use up the ferts so fast lowering ph, right? What about just using plain tap at 7.0 would this up my ph and make it easier for the organic soil to ph adjust itself not having to deal w/ the acidic nutes?

Brother_Monk said:

Nute solution going in should have a ph of 6.2-6.5 when using this soil mix, during flower...My recommendation...water with straight tap with 1/4tsp epsom/gal. No nutes this week.If your water is hard, the ph should be about 7-8.

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Yes, that is my tap ph. I think we have a concensus, water w/ the correct ph and i should see improvement?
One more question. I was wondering if my soil staying moist too long before needing to be watered could affect my plants this way?
Thanks again for sticking with this one...and for reading this long winded post.