Neem as a Soil Conditioner

Speed Racer · Apr 12, 2014

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I am definately changing the topdressing to mulch, since marble is pure dolomite. I should have thought on that in the first place."
Mulch on top is a great idea and think type of mulch could matter too. I don't see the Dolomite marble on top adding much lime or anything. I use pulverized dolomite lime with added calcium for a perfect 7 to 1 Cal/Mag ratio. Using some dolomite is good not bad especially if using distilled water like I do and can help with ph. :tiphat:

SR
[/FONT]

foomar · Apr 12, 2014

Could the constant use of a low level of neem have the effect of breeding resistance to it amongst soil pests ?

This seems to have been the case with indiscriminate sub lethal antibiotic use in medicine.

Speed Racer · Apr 12, 2014

"Could the constant use of a low level of neem have the effect of breeding resistance to it amongst soil pests?"
Good question and makes sense. I use in the bottom of pot, but plan to only add to top 4-5 inches of soil. Once in grow and again in early bloom when could use extra N anyway. For gnats alone the dunks in combo with this seems would work fine, but when bad azomax or other different insecticide could be used and mix it up some so the bugs don't get immune as you say. Heard of some new glass shard type of top dressing and cuts up the lil bastards. Not sure if this would hurt the finger when checking moisture though. Its new but cant think of the name. peace... :tiphat:

SR

foomar · Apr 12, 2014

If you use neem you might find this short article of interest.

The neem tree - a case history of biopiracy

http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/pir-ch.htm

Hmong · Apr 12, 2014

Speed Racer said:
"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I am definately changing the topdressing to mulch, since marble is pure dolomite. I should have thought on that in the first place."
Mulch on top is a great idea and think type of mulch could matter too. I don't see the Dolomite marble on top adding much lime or anything. I use pulverized dolomite lime with added calcium for a perfect 7 to 1 Cal/Mag ratio. Using some dolomite is good not bad especially if using distilled water like I do and can help with ph. SR
[/FONT]

thank you for your answer.
you are absolutely right.
I thought the gravel topdressing releases to much calzium because when i measured runoff pH this one time it was 7,4
tough it's more likely that the soil pH is acidic. I guess the high pH was from the neem cake which got washed out @ watering.
EC was extreme too after that.

I ran a small experiment to verify my theory but I ended up with a surprising result. I ran 10 liters of ph 5,5 RO water on a pot filled with my marble stones. collected the last 2 Liters of runoff and measured pH+EC. It was unchanged. ph 5.5 and EC 0.1
I realize that i was wrong with my theory and gravel might be someway "inert" to a certain point. so obviously a good thing

I have the feeling that the S defficiency got worse after changing to mulch and watering tea on it. massive yellowing on some topshoots. Of course I "limed" the mulch + the topsoil with maerl (CaO,MgO) before i topdressed.

But to make sure its neighter the marble nor the mulch alone causing that, since I used both. It's more likely the water, like you said

I use RO water too for watering and brewing teas.
gonna change to tab for a while now
my tab has around 95mg/L Ca, we will see if that is a gamechanger.
thx for the tip

ozzieAI · Apr 13, 2014

Could the constant use of a low level of neem have the effect of breeding resistance to it amongst soil pests ?

not with pure neem oil because once the pest is affected by neem it can't breed and therefore can't pass on any resistance..

All leaf-eating insects are wiped out as are all insects actually coming into
contact with Neem. This huge array of insecticidal properties of Neem is thought to
be due to it’s adversely effecting the insects hormone system. If that is so then no
insect will be able to become immune, because it’s hormone system is essential for
every bodily function. Most significant, insects develop resistance in each
subsequent generation, and as insects dosed with Neem cannot breed, thus there
are no subsequent generations in which resistance can develop. (Ref. Australia DPI)

http://www.ublcorp.com/files/Biological_Insecticides.pdf

ozzieAI · Apr 13, 2014

I ran a small experiment

good on ya for experimenting...

i think your yellowing problems are coming from not maintaining your nute strength when flushing. you are removing the nutes from the coco every time you flush leaving the plants with little to eat...

the pots that i have loaded with neem cake have strong healthy plants in them...my biggest issue atm is trying to find the right watering schedule...i suspect i have been over watering my plants...

Hmong · Apr 13, 2014

ozzieAI said:
i think your yellowing problems are coming from not maintaining your nute strength when flushing. you are removing the nutes from the coco every time you flush leaving the plants with little to eat...

I worked on that after your last post. It was about 2 weeks ago when i changed to only neem cake as topdress and feeding full strength ever since. leaves are very dark outside, only yellowing from the inside out and on new shoots especially. So i would say clearly a S deficiency from too low pH and after what speed racer said obviously low calzium. Its my fault for only using RO water.

ozzieAI said:

the pots that i have loaded with neem cake have strong healthy plants in them...my biggest issue atm is trying to find the right watering schedule...i suspect i have been over watering my plants...

Click to expand...

I totally confirm!
my plants are extremely dark green and glossy since I use the cake, altough I still have bugs

foomar · Apr 13, 2014

My concern would be that constant very low doses would not prevent breeding , leading to resistance developing albeit over a much longer timescale than for other pesticides that only contain a single active ingredient or mode of action.

Because neem's chemical structure is so complex (the tree has many different compounds with pesticidal properties), scientists believe it will take a long time for insects to develop resistance to it. However, in order to minimise the chance of affecting beneficial organisms and encouraging pest resistance, use neem sprays only when absolutely necessary, and only on plants you know are affected by pests. The effect of neem as a pesticide depends on the concentration of the active principles, on the formulation, on the pest type and on the crop.

http://www.infonet-biovision.org/default/ct/189/medicinalPlants

ozzieAI · Apr 13, 2014

thanks for the link

My concern would be that constant very low doses would not prevent breeding

from my understanding a pest is either affected by neem or not...there is no low dosage..it either is or it isn't...

also 5ml/litre isn't a low dose....2ml/litre is though...

ozzieAI · Apr 13, 2014

looking good hmong...i wish i had a better supply of neem cake

the sand/gravel is working okay but there are still some FG in the pots...thinking of going for BTI and spinosad in the future...BTI to mix into the coco and spinosad for watering...

foomar · Apr 13, 2014

Before American companies started to exploit neem , the cake was considered to be a waste product in India of little or no monetary value , and disposed of by spreading on land where it had some fertilizer effects.

A handful of foreign companies are making a fortune from neem and driving its price beyond the reach of the people who have used it as a cheap medicine for centuries.

The information on most western sites is biased towards marketing neem as a panacea for just about every condition possible , seems too good to be true.

Special Precautions & Warnings:

Children: Neem is UNSAFE for children. Serious side effects in infants and small children can happen within hours after taking neem oil. These serious side effects include vomiting, diarrhea, drowsiness, blood disorders, seizures, loss of consciousness, coma, brain disorders, and death.

Pregnancy and breast-feeding: Neem oil and neem bark are UNSAFE to use during pregnancy. They can cause a miscarriage.

There are no studies that show that neem is safe during pregnancy. It is thought that neem might have the ability to cause miscarriages (or to prevent pregnancy in the first place) by stimulating a woman's immune system to attack the developing embryo. Until more information is available, neem should be considered unsafe for pregnant women. Because neem might have contraceptive effects (in both men and women), couples trying to conceive should not use neem.

Just because neem is a natural product does not mean that it is safe for use during pregnancy. Many toxins, poisons, and drugs are natural substances. It should not be assumed that a natural product is always safe or is any safer than a conventional medication. Similarly, just because other women have safely used neem (or any other herb or medication) during pregnancy does not mean that it is truly safe.

Consuming 20 MIL of fresh neem oil has long been used in rural India to secure an abortion or as a morning after contraceptive but nobody talks about it , despite this I have seen western sites saying it is safe in pregnancy.

Hmong · Apr 13, 2014

ozzieAI said:
looking good hmong...i wish i had a better supply of neem cake

the sand/gravel is working okay but there are still some FG in the pots...thinking of going for BTI and spinosad in the future...BTI to mix into the coco and spinosad for watering...

me too.
I only could afford 1kg since i have to order via amazon, really pricy for some powder.
Next time I check for neem seed meal. it's more expensive though, but it's pure seed meal so still has the whole azadirachtin. I hope to need less of it.

for me sand + gravel in smartpots has somehow eliminated root aphids to a point of insignificance as you can see, though I have much more fungus gnats now too :shucks:

I guess the gnats can still escape too easy trough the layer (especially on the sidewalls) and so arent affected by the "neem prison" as much as RAs.
maybe i go with some pyrethrine if they get too annoying.

Also good luck for you Sir, allways appreciate to read from you :tiphat:

Team Microbe · Apr 14, 2014

http://www.neemresource.com/OnlineOrder.html

^ Great online shop for neem in all forms - cake, oil, leaf, bark powder

..as well as Karanja cake in which I hear is just as good as neem

Speed Racer · Apr 14, 2014

High Ozzie or anyone buying BTI. Works great, but don't buy the precrumbled bits and get the whole dunks and crumble(smash up) yourself. If you read the labels, the whole dunks have more BTI than the bits. Add more BTI every three to four weeks to top 4-5 inches of soil or can be added whole to res for hydro. Not sure if can clog res though. I also add BTI to bottom of pot at the start with some neem too. No more bottom bugs. :tiphat:

SR

Speed Racer · Apr 14, 2014

Thanks Team Microbe. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]'Organix' Neem Pet Shampoo - 12 fl. oz. is on the site too and wonder if keeps fleas away? :tiphat:

SR
[/FONT]

ozzieAI · Apr 14, 2014

Great online shop for neem in all forms

yeah...pity it is the other side of the planet....

Works great, but don't buy the precrumbled bits and get the whole dunks

the BTI i get is a fine powder

Speed Racer · Apr 14, 2014

Hmong. I am not sure all RO/distilled water is the same and is what they say. I will never use tap if I can avoid it. So many things have seeped into the water including dissolveables like many pharms people dump etc etc and never all removed even when they say ok to drink. I prefer to amend my own water and water, nutes etc should all be tested to some degree as I do not trust them that there labeling is correct and/or nutes, water is what they say it is. I would use well water before city tap, but always check ppm cause some can be high and you will never know the amount of cal/mag etc is already in the water.
I wanted to make a side note off topic a little. I recently ran out of my fish bone meal(phosphoric acid) and noticed plants without it had smaller yields. I think this form of phosphorus is some of the best absorbed and calcium and other great benefits too. Getting some soon from Dr Earth and thought to mention as definitely noticed a difference without it. peace... :tiphat:

SR

Speed Racer · Apr 14, 2014

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"the BTI i get is a fine powder". Is this in the states in store or online. Never heard of the powder and sounds interesting. peace... :tiphat:

SR
[/FONT]

Speed Racer · Apr 14, 2014

this is only a test...

Neem as a Soil Conditioner

Member

Luddite

Member

Luddite

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Luddite

Well-known member

Well-known member

Luddite

Well-known member

Active member

Member

Member

Well-known member

Member

Member

Member