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Mauritius P2 male
- Thread starter mexcurandero420
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I wrote a very long reply to your question but lost the content after being log out. I will try to repeat it again.
I had a long meeting with Phylos staff last week to comment this and other genetic results we have recently performed with them. And i can confirm their genotype reports are not fully accurate. For example, Malawi x PCK fem version was produced by crossing Old Malawi Killer with Purple Pakistan Chitral Kush 2002 (reversed) and both parental plants have been also analyzed by Phylos:
https://phylos.bio/sims/variety/PGT-243530/ace-seeds/old-malawi-killer-p1
https://phylos.bio/sims/variety/PGT-193092/ace-seeds/purple-pakistan-chitral-kush-2002
but Malawi x PCK F1 #47 Purple Pheno genotype report:
https://phylos.bio/sims/variety/PGT-243525/ace-seeds/malawi-x-pck-f1-47-purple-pheno
only shows as genetic relative the Old Malawi Killer, but don't even consider Purple PCK 2002 or other PCK parental plants available at their Galaxy as immediate or distant relatives.
That's not correct. I could have doubts about the genetic relatives of strains that i have not breed myself, like it's the case of the Haze hybrids from Nevil, but without any hint of doubt, i can confirm Old Malawi Killer and Purple PCK 2002 are the 2 immediate parental plants of Malawi x PCK F1 #47 purple pheno, because i bred this hybrid by myself and i also selected that specific #47 purple female by myself. Those who have grown our Malawi x PCK will fully agree that this hybrid undoubtedly contains PCK.
Why the Malawi x PCK genotype report doesn't show the PCK 2002 as genetic relative is beyond my understanding. Their technical team replied that PCK is highly heterozygous and went further than the thresold of their procedure and therefore it doesn't appear as genetic relative of Malawi x PCK, but this is not accurate. PCK has a moderate genetic variability and if their procedure manages to detect immediate relative of very highly heterozygous polyhybrids (like it's the case of most of the modern Kush hybrids floating around North America) then it should be able to detect properly PCK 2002 as immediate parental plant of Malawi x PCK F1.
This in no way is a negative critique against Phylos, quite the opposite, a constructive one. Phylos is working on science fields not explored yet and in science is very difficult to reach to a definitive solution in the first attempts. Even the best scientists had to fail many times until be able to find the right and most accurate solution.
Regarding the specific case (Mauritius genotype report) that you mention (Syd also asked me through pm the same and i reply you the same): i find the Mauritius sativa to be a real untamed and extremely tropical african sativa landrace. None of the Mauritius traits have any resemblance with the Haze hybrids from Nevil (and i have first hand experience with both). Mauritius' growth profile, terpene profile, flowering traits, THC levels, yield, vigor, etc ... have nothing in common with Nevil's hybrids. The Mauritius even grows with the classic and unmistakable octopus branching so typical of Zamal sativas and other sativas from this part of the World. But on the other hand, the Mauritius genotype report states the sample is highly variable so who knows for sure what it's hidden in its genepool .... i must admit this genotype report is surprising.
Not sure whether my reply helped you with your doubt, but it's fully honest and covers as much as my current knowledge can reach.
I had a long meeting with Phylos staff last week to comment this and other genetic results we have recently performed with them. And i can confirm their genotype reports are not fully accurate. For example, Malawi x PCK fem version was produced by crossing Old Malawi Killer with Purple Pakistan Chitral Kush 2002 (reversed) and both parental plants have been also analyzed by Phylos:
https://phylos.bio/sims/variety/PGT-243530/ace-seeds/old-malawi-killer-p1
https://phylos.bio/sims/variety/PGT-193092/ace-seeds/purple-pakistan-chitral-kush-2002
but Malawi x PCK F1 #47 Purple Pheno genotype report:
https://phylos.bio/sims/variety/PGT-243525/ace-seeds/malawi-x-pck-f1-47-purple-pheno
only shows as genetic relative the Old Malawi Killer, but don't even consider Purple PCK 2002 or other PCK parental plants available at their Galaxy as immediate or distant relatives.
That's not correct. I could have doubts about the genetic relatives of strains that i have not breed myself, like it's the case of the Haze hybrids from Nevil, but without any hint of doubt, i can confirm Old Malawi Killer and Purple PCK 2002 are the 2 immediate parental plants of Malawi x PCK F1 #47 purple pheno, because i bred this hybrid by myself and i also selected that specific #47 purple female by myself. Those who have grown our Malawi x PCK will fully agree that this hybrid undoubtedly contains PCK.
Why the Malawi x PCK genotype report doesn't show the PCK 2002 as genetic relative is beyond my understanding. Their technical team replied that PCK is highly heterozygous and went further than the thresold of their procedure and therefore it doesn't appear as genetic relative of Malawi x PCK, but this is not accurate. PCK has a moderate genetic variability and if their procedure manages to detect immediate relative of very highly heterozygous polyhybrids (like it's the case of most of the modern Kush hybrids floating around North America) then it should be able to detect properly PCK 2002 as immediate parental plant of Malawi x PCK F1.
This in no way is a negative critique against Phylos, quite the opposite, a constructive one. Phylos is working on science fields not explored yet and in science is very difficult to reach to a definitive solution in the first attempts. Even the best scientists had to fail many times until be able to find the right and most accurate solution.
Regarding the specific case (Mauritius genotype report) that you mention (Syd also asked me through pm the same and i reply you the same): i find the Mauritius sativa to be a real untamed and extremely tropical african sativa landrace. None of the Mauritius traits have any resemblance with the Haze hybrids from Nevil (and i have first hand experience with both). Mauritius' growth profile, terpene profile, flowering traits, THC levels, yield, vigor, etc ... have nothing in common with Nevil's hybrids. The Mauritius even grows with the classic and unmistakable octopus branching so typical of Zamal sativas and other sativas from this part of the World. But on the other hand, the Mauritius genotype report states the sample is highly variable so who knows for sure what it's hidden in its genepool .... i must admit this genotype report is surprising.
Not sure whether my reply helped you with your doubt, but it's fully honest and covers as much as my current knowledge can reach.
brickweeder
Well-known member
Dubi, thank you very much for posting this. It provides a nice reality check on the state of Phylos that isn't normally made available. Their reply that PCK is highly heterozygous and went further than the threshold of their procedure and therefore it doesn't appear as genetic relative of Malawi x PC tells me they may not have looked deeply into the discrepancy, and perhaps their procedures still need some development (to make sure it captures the other half of the parental genetics in all cases). Really appreciate the effort you and Ace provide.
YukonKronic
Active member
Cool. This is all kinda pretty neat. I often wondered at just how accurate Phylos was considering so many Human ancestry DNA companies have been getting exposed as inaccurate at best and outright fraudulent at worst.
Once again I am impressed by Dubi’s transparency and desire to help his customers understand the products he and ACE team are selling.
Once again I am impressed by Dubi’s transparency and desire to help his customers understand the products he and ACE team are selling.
Dubi many thanks for posting your findings and the results of your vid meeting with the people of Phylos.
I've some doubts myself about some findings of them.
For example what was send by Mel Frank and the direct correlation between Cambodia and Colombia.
It could be that Mel Frank made a mistake by messing up the seeds before sending or at Phylos, but i've to ask Mel Frank what his thoughts are.
In the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century there was a lot going on at that time because of the interest of the medical applications of Cannabis.American pharmaceutical companies did send seed collectors to different parts of the world to collect seeds not from hemp varieties which were already cultivated for fibre and seed, but from high resin varieties to develop new pharmaceutical varieties.
I know that the Dutch were cultivating Cannabis at Java East-Indies, which was sold in the pharmacies in Holland, the same with cocaine btw.
I've some doubts myself about some findings of them.
For example what was send by Mel Frank and the direct correlation between Cambodia and Colombia.
It could be that Mel Frank made a mistake by messing up the seeds before sending or at Phylos, but i've to ask Mel Frank what his thoughts are.
In the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century there was a lot going on at that time because of the interest of the medical applications of Cannabis.American pharmaceutical companies did send seed collectors to different parts of the world to collect seeds not from hemp varieties which were already cultivated for fibre and seed, but from high resin varieties to develop new pharmaceutical varieties.
I know that the Dutch were cultivating Cannabis at Java East-Indies, which was sold in the pharmacies in Holland, the same with cocaine btw.
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Nexus7
Well-known member
Interesting ...
So Dubi can you confirm that that both the Old Killer Malawi P1 and Purple PCK 2002 are both individual plants and not breeding lines? And that those same individual plants were used to breed the Malawi x PCK F1 line and were the same ones submitted to phylos?
It's seems strange that phylos wouldn't be able to detect something as simple as parentage of strains. Phylos also seems to suggest that Old Killer Malawi P1 is more like a grand-parent or Aunt than parent to the Malawi PCK F1#47.
The only thing I can think of is phylos adjusting thresholds to differentiate between highly related OG kush/cookies/chem etc plants makes other plants relationships seem more distant. Which if it was the case by phylos is pretty poor form.
Peace,
N7
G
Guest
My opinion:
Mauritius: mystery
Haze A/C relative was one of my thoughts too but it is a long shot from many perspectives,(I would also expect more connection to oth in this occasion)if Dubi can be certain that the seeds from Mauritius were definitely from there.Could be a dutch haze acclimated there for a decade or more perhaps?EDIT- Even this wouldn't show a DIRECT relation though,right?
OTH : agreed
"Stars barking project"Malawi : nl haze x ace malawi
Ace old killer malawi :malawi ,possibly (not sure about that) crossed with something in Spain before reaching dubi
Of course we just experienced that there are unpredictable(at least to us ) flaws and just speculating.
Nexus7
Well-known member
We were thinking the Mauritius P2 (male) might be a Haze A or C relative. So 4-7% isn't too far off you what you might expect from a 100% landrace Sativa hybrid, like OTH, grown outside of it's tropical climate.
It's the Malawi that I might be a little concerned contain a little Dutch or Indica genetics. The old killer shows as red/skunk rich on phylos while the P2 Standard more green/landrace. Suggests to me the genes are segregating back to their parental types.
Anyway it's all pure speculation based off phylos results which is a little unreliable at this point to say the least.
I actually purchased a 3pk of Malawi (fem) based on the phylos test results. Whatever it is it's rare and unique. Will probably pick up a pack of Mauritius too just based off the phylos data.
I hope I'm not causing any disrespect to Ace seeds? I imagine your strains are probably like your children by now. So feel free to let me know if that's the case.
Peace,
N7
G
Guest
Malawi is one of the best herbs I've grown and consumed and its hybrids give stellar results.Grown 3 hybrids of it again last season and I'm going back to straight malawi this year.You certainly made a wise choice getting some.If I recall correctly ,Dubi has shared that the p2 standard is an unreleased line but he can correct me if my memory is deceiving...
Hi mexcurandero420,
I prefer not to comment about what others have submitted to Phylos as i don't know for sure what others have submitted. I can only speak of submissions sent by ACE and about parental plants, lines and hybrids i'm familiarized with.
Hi Nexus7,
Yes, i can fully confirm Old Malawi Killer and Purple PCK 2002 are the immediate relatives of Malawi x PCK feminized hybrid where the Malawi x PCK #47 comes from and those were exactly the parental plants we sudmitted to Phylos. So Phylos genotype report of Malawi x PCK #47 should show both Old Malawi Killer and PCK 2002 as immediate relatives.
Old Malawi Killer is the oldest parental plants from our Malawi line so there are no other parental plants from this Malawi line that pre dates the Old Malawi Killer.
Those who have grown our Malawi can confirm our Malawi has 0 Skunk influence. Skunk terpenes are unmistakable and are usually very dominant in all Skunk hybrids .... everything 'touched by' Skunk' smells more or less to Skunk and there are 0 Skunk terpenes in our Malawi, neither i have found any trait in our Malawi that makes me think the line contains Skunk.
Honestly, i don't support Phylos taxonomy, firstly because they don't explain in detail how they came out with this taxonomy or what's the meaning of the genetic blocks they use to classify the genotypes they receive. And secondly, because (as we say here in Spain) they are 'trying to build the house from the roof' with the approach of the taxonomy they are using right now. I think it would be a much more interesting approach for a taxonomy to use legit landraces as the building blocks for their classification system. But it's up to them how to do it.
Yes they are
Thanks for supporting our work, much appreciated!
Hi Syd,
No, Old Malawi Killer is indeed the mother of Malawi Standard P2 seed sample submitted to Phylos:
https://phylos.bio/sims/variety/PGT-243530/ace-seeds/old-malawi-killer-p1
https://phylos.bio/sims/variety/PGT-12223-11971/ace-seeds/malawi-standard-p2
Malawi #2 is the different Malawi line not explored yet and that has not been used to breed our current Malawi releases:
https://phylos.bio/sims/variety/PGT-13087/ace-seeds/malawi-2
In all these cases the Phylos genotype reports show correctly their genetic relationships.
G
Guest
Hello Dubi
Well i can understand you don't want to talk about what others had send and what came out as result, but it was just an example, i've noticed while i was doing research of the different varieties which was send.Pity Robert Connell Clarke didn't send any genetics from the Yunnan region compared what you have in your product range.
The terpene profile of your Mauritius has some similarities with the A5 Hz in monoterpenes, but less in the sesquiterpenes, although there are some labs nowadays that test your variety for 35 different terpenes like SC Labs, but that is in the US and not the EU.
The population profile of the Mauritius is less in the landrace range than the Haze's you've send to them like Nevil's Haze late 80s.What is your thought about that?
brickweeder
Well-known member
100% agree with this.
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