Please check my Silver N & Sodium S recipe

HI Guys,

Im about to embark in some Plant sex reversal to produce fem seeds and i have come across this recipe for STS.


I just wanted to double check it with you guys.




My recipe ( which i have never used) is

Two Part solution.
PART A consists of 0.5 grams of silver nitrates stirred into 500ml of distilled water.
PART B is 2.5 grams of sodium thiosulfate (anhydrous) stirred into 500ml of distilled water.

After these two are made blend part A with B while stirring rapidly,


Just wanted to see what you thought of it?


Cheers Watts up

Bump

Bump

Im very curious to know other recipes as well. Wondering if anyone has a solution that makes a larger amount of solution?

Do post ur results ,, as most here go the route of Colloidal Silver, or E-Bay for STS

cheers

The how you mix what exactly is less important than the final molar ratio of silver nitrate to sodium thiosulphate. Usually, a 1:4 ratio is used. Theoretically, it's a 1:2 ratio but the 1:4 has proven to be better in a practical way. I'm too lazy right now to calculate your ratio but I think it's not quite right... I could be wrong too... mental arithmetic (g/l -> mM) at this time, not even my brain's that good (at least not anymore )!

O_O, what do you find to be the most effective ratio or application rates for full reversal resulting in ample pollen dehiscence?

Can't tell you from experience which application rate might be best... most likely, it depends on the variety too.
A thing which I noticed is that folks here on IC spray the whole plants from tip to toe, so to speak, whilst in agricultural research and the like people apply it only to the desired growing tips. Silver being immobile and displacing the equally immobile copper (though this mode of action is still a matter of debate) makes it possible to 'quench' ethylene production in very young tissue and keeping it quenched till death (or at least long enough to get flowers of the desired sex). This avoids negative effects such as growth retardation (no drying of mature leaves) and deformities (of the flowers). Still have to test this (being reluctant to test stuff on my few plants, though) but I have a funny idea using a special cream...

Regarding the ratio: that 1:4 molar ratio is just what's been found in science to be most suitable because it results in the most stable complexes under physiological conditions. The 1:2 is only stable enough in alkaline solutions and these aren't very suitable when applied to plants but are only usable for syntheses and chemistry stuff.
The excess in thiosulfate is likely contributing to the 'copper deficiency syndrome' part in the equation but it also contributes to methionine recycling and leaf burns which are both counter-productive effects. The latter effect is used in agriculture for thinning of apple blossoms at a concentration coinciding roughly with higher levels of STS (if I'm calculating correctly at this late hour). Apropos late... got to go sleepy-sleepy.

So you have no experience with STS then O_O?

Edited: being a dick

LoL!
Yes, I have no problems admitting that my personal experience with it is limited and I don't want anyone to follow anybody blindly cause someone's telling stories on the internet either.
But STS is mainly chemistry, not biology... besides, I did not recommend a dosage . Just to clarify.
But if you prefer me not responding at all and not taking the time to share the knowledge I have, practical, theoretical, or otherwise... Poor watts up not getting a response at all, not even from someone with practical experience (cause that one's occupied with dissing others, if I'm now not completely mistaken)...

The most widely quoted recipe might originate from Sigma-Aldrich, who weren't really thinking about ganja. Is anyone anywhere successfully using their formula on anything, and if so, how?

The unrelated, original literature relevant here used 1:8 by weight (hydration unspecified, none apparent) and I think (approximately) by moles. Their silver dosing protocol seems more important for their success - maybe the polysorbate helped too.

A contemporary quote also suggests 1:8, although the subject is STS for the cut flower trade, instead of something else:

"In the original publication (Veen and Van de Geijn, 1978), a molar ratio between AgNO3 and Na2S2O3.5H2O of 1:8 was advised. Work carried out in the United States advised a ratio of 1:4 (Reid et al., 1980a). Although the smaller amount of thiosulphate may be preferable as far as phytotoxicity is concerned, theoretically it can be shown that the STS complex is less stable in that case."

I'm not sure if Sigma-Aldrich came first or if they simply sell what's most frequently used (= ordered)... Don't they usually post references with such recipes/substances?

You're stating nearly the same as I did (I wonder if Chimera now snaps at you too).
Cut flowers get STS with the water in the vase and hence tolerate higher amounts of thiosulfate whilst the excess of tap water (natural buffer) lowers complex stability and therefore requires more of it too. And that's about where the 1:4 ratio for foliar application came from, it's a compromise. If it's the best one, I simply don't know. It also depends on light and humidity etc.... Like everything which shows a bell shaped concentration-effect curve, a slightly offset concentration does nearly as good a job in practice as does the theoretical optimum.
Cannabis being a dicot as any other and the posted results of burnt leaves let me conclude that the drawback of a high thiosulfate to silver ratio isn't the best way to begin his experiments with. But then again, practical biology such as gardening isn't an exact science.

Looking forward to some constructive inputs, field reports, and the occasional picture.

amanda88 said:

Do post ur results ,, as most here go the route of Colloidal Silver, or E-Bay for STS

cheers

Click to expand...

Hi Amanda,


im currently still working on a getting all the plants organised into their different growth stages for it to be worth while attempt.
will keep you posted,
thanks!

Only Ornamental said:

The how you mix what exactly is less important than the final molar ratio of silver nitrate to sodium thiosulphate. Usually, a 1:4 ratio is used. Theoretically, it's a 1:2 ratio but the 1:4 has proven to be better in a practical way. I'm too lazy right now to calculate your ratio but I think it's not quite right... I could be wrong too... mental arithmetic (g/l -> mM) at this time, not even my brain's that good (at least not anymore )!

Click to expand...

The recipe i posted had been published in skunk magazine, But i thought (from my reading) that certain strains can react differently... so before i gave the ratio/recipe a try.

Maybe i should prepare different ratios and have several plants to try this on.. trial and error

cheers wattsup

Only Ornamental said:

Can't tell you from experience which application rate might be best... most likely, it depends on the variety too.
A thing which I noticed is that folks here on IC spray the whole plants from tip to toe, so to speak, whilst in agricultural research and the like people apply it only to the desired growing tips. Silver being immobile and displacing the equally immobile copper (though this mode of action is still a matter of debate) makes it possible to 'quench' ethylene production in very young tissue and keeping it quenched till death (or at least long enough to get flowers of the desired sex). This avoids negative effects such as growth retardation (no drying of mature leaves) and deformities (of the flowers). Still have to test this (being reluctant to test stuff on my few plants, though) but I have a funny idea using a special cream...

Regarding the ratio: that 1:4 molar ratio is just what's been found in science to be most suitable because it results in the most stable complexes under physiological conditions. The 1:2 is only stable enough in alkaline solutions and these aren't very suitable when applied to plants but are only usable for syntheses and chemistry stuff.
The excess in thiosulfate is likely contributing to the 'copper deficiency syndrome' part in the equation but it also contributes to methionine recycling and leaf burns which are both counter-productive effects. The latter effect is used in agriculture for thinning of apple blossoms at a concentration coinciding roughly with higher levels of STS (if I'm calculating correctly at this late hour). Apropos late... got to go sleepy-sleepy.

Click to expand...

Hi Only Ornemental,

Yes the copper deficiency is what my concern is, even at 1:4 some strains seem not to like it at all. Ive also read not to spray the STS all over and just the desired area.

Thanks for your input!!



Wattsup

( i need to learn how to do multiple quotes),,,

G.O. Joe said:

The most widely quoted recipe might originate from Sigma-Aldrich, who weren't really thinking about ganja. Is anyone anywhere successfully using their formula on anything, and if so, how?

The unrelated, original literature relevant here used 1:8 by weight (hydration unspecified, none apparent) and I think (approximately) by moles. Their silver dosing protocol seems more important for their success - maybe the polysorbate helped too.

A contemporary quote also suggests 1:8, although the subject is STS for the cut flower trade, instead of something else:

"In the original publication (Veen and Van de Geijn, 1978), a molar ratio between AgNO3 and Na2S2O3.5H2O of 1:8 was advised. Work carried out in the United States advised a ratio of 1:4 (Reid et al., 1980a). Although the smaller amount of thiosulphate may be preferable as far as phytotoxicity is concerned, theoretically it can be shown that the STS complex is less stable in that case."

Click to expand...

Hey G.O.Joe,


Thanks for the input, looks like I've got more reading to do. Or again just gotta give it a go and see how things turn out based on the numerous from people here or the recipe i have.


Cheers

wattsup

bump......yeehaw..I have yet to try making sts...but its on my list...way easier than CS ...

watts up said:

...
( i need to learn how to do multiple quotes),,,

Click to expand...

You know where the "quote" button is; to its right, there's the button "quick reply" and the sign on the far right side (looks like a letter, a quotation mark, and a plus sign) is what you're searching for . Click it for all posts you want to quote except the last one. There you click the normal quote button and BAM!! you've got it!

Only Ornamental said:

You know where the "quote" button is; to its right, there's the button "quick reply" and the sign on the far right side (looks like a letter, a quotation mark, and a plus sign) is what you're searching for . Click it for all posts you want to quote except the last one. There you click the normal quote button and BAM!! you've got it!

Click to expand...

Got it, Ornamental, cheers!

stoned-trout said:

bump......yeehaw..I have yet to try making sts...but its on my list...way easier than CS ...

Click to expand...

Stoned trout you say its easier than Colloidal silver? why is that?


Cheers

Watts up

San Diego UC Cooperative Extension bulletin May 86:

WHAT'S "STS" ??
It's hard to believe, but growers still ask, "What's STS?" STS stands for the chemical called silverthiosulfate. It was first used by Dutch researchers to prevent ethylene injury to cut flowers. STS was better than silver nitrate because STS was absorbed completely up the stem into the flower. STS is in the order of an industry "breakthrough" as its proper use during the postharvest period practically guarantees that flower sleepiness or flower drop (caused by ethylene) can be eliminated as problems in shipping and handling. In other words, if you grow and sell a crop subject to ethylene injury and you don't use STS, you're being sort of stupid! You're also being stupid if you use it on a crop that doesn't need it.

The cut flowers which have ethylene problems are carnations, gypsophila, snapdragons, sweet peas and possibly Sweet William. There may be others. There are also many blooming pot plants which benefit from STS (a spray application) . Examples are Christmas cacti (all kinds), fuchsias, calceolarias and bougainvillea. The simplest way to obtain STS is to buy the prepared liquid concentrate from a supplier. It is most often used at the low rate of one ounce per gallon of water for overnight and longer stem-water treatments. For quick or "pulse" treatments for 10 minutes or a couple of hours, STS is used at a rate as high as four ounces per gallon. For spray of foliage and young flowers of potted plants, STS may be used at two or three ounces per gallon. Each crop can be very specific in the way STS is applied.

The alternative way to obtain STS is to make it yourself from scratch. You must obtain the basic chemicals from a basic chemical supplier. The chemicals are: (1) silver nitrate (AgNO3), and (2) anhydrous sodium thiosulfate (Na2S2O3) -

To prepare the liquid concentrate (or stock solution): —

1. Weigh out 11 ounces (320 grams) of anhydrous sodium thiosulfate. Another form of this chemical, prismatic sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate can be substituted. If so, use 16 ounces (480 grams) of this chemical.
2. Dissolve this in 2 quarts of water in a clean PLASTIC container.
3. Weigh out 3 ounces (80 grams) of silver nitrate.
4. Dissolve this in 2 quarts of water in a SEPARATE clean PLASTIC container.
5. Prepare the STS stock solution by slowly pouring the silver nitrate solution into the sodium thiosulfate solution (not the other way around). Stir rapidly as the solutions are mixed. Some browning of the stock solution may occur during mixing.
6. Store the STS stock solution in a cool place. Its effective shelf life is between three and four months.