Please Help Me Identify this Hydro Problem

Hello Folks!

Trying to help out a buddy with identifying some deficiencies. I'll fill out the form to the best of my abilities.

How long has this problem been going on?
For the past couple weeks of veg.

Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents)
No

What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...)
Ebb and flow buckets - 6

What STRAIN are you growing?
White Rhino and something else... maybe GWS?

What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?)
I'm pretty sure these were from seed though I could be wrong...

What is the age of your plants?
These are sitting at around 3-4 weeks.

How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..)
Hydroton

How tall are the plants?
Maybe 1.5 ft?

What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?
Veg

What Technique are you using?
Trying to grow it

What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.)
Hydroton

What is the Water temperature?
67-72ish -- around the temp of the room, nothing in the res to control temp

What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy?
Whitish - not bright white - no slime

What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless)
Pure Blend Pro and Cal-Mag

How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water?
The recommended feeding from the chart

*Knowing the brand is very helpful*
How often are you feeding? (If using soiless)
Every 5 days or so?

How often are you giving nutrients? (If using soiless)
Is there a difference from above?

What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect)
Veg

What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using?
Sitting around 400 right now

What is the pH of the "Tank"?
Res goes from around 5.3-5.5 when nutes are added up to around 6ish when the nutes are being used up.

Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment?
Yes.

How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients?
Every week

What size bulb are you using?
Multiple 400W MH

What is the distance to the canopy?
Maybe... 18 inches?

What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)?
Not sure.

What is the canopy temperature?
Within range.

What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range)
Lights are on in veg almost all the time... around 72-78, maybe 80?

What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
Substantial.

Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?
It's always running and well taken care of.

Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
No.

Is your water HARD or SOFT?
Using RO'd water.

What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled?
RO

Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water?
Well

Are you using water from a water softener?
No

Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched
No

Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When?
No

Are plant's infected with pest's?
No

Here's the pics.

Thanks a bunch for looking. ++Rep for sure for any decent advice

I'll try to answer any questions as best I can considering it ain't mine.

Some look worse than others:










Thanks for lookin'!

-Q

Wow deficiency problem most def try using the gh 3 part system grow micro and bloom i had the same problem long ago i would say you have a sulfur def manganese def and a iron def flush all of your med hydro ton raise your ph to 5.6-5.8 and raise your ppm to about 600 to 700 they are getting you said 1'6" tall they need more nutes then what you are giving them and a little bit higher ph try that for about a week and see how they start doing .
IMO. hope this helps

I thought there might be some of those deficiencies in there.

So, flush the hydroton, bring the pH up to 5.6-5.8...

Not sure about being able to switch to GH's 3-part as they've already invested in the PBP.

Bring up the PPM...

Alright, any other suggestions before I go back to my friend with some information?

-Q

Get some Ph+ and Ph-

Moneygrowonweed said:

Wow deficiency problem most def try using the gh 3 part system grow micro and bloom i had the same problem long ago i would say you have a sulfur def manganese def and a iron def flush all of your med hydro ton raise your ph to 5.6-5.8 and raise your ppm to about 600 to 700 they are getting you said 1'6" tall they need more nutes then what you are giving them and a little bit higher ph try that for about a week and see how they start doing .
IMO. hope this helps

Click to expand...

it's not a def problem because of the PBP... plenty of people use PBP and it is a good quality nute... It's something you are doing not the nutes... PBP bloom together with cal-mag is practically the same thing as the GH 3part... I would think something might be off with the pH and/or salt buildup (those are the most common problem with hydro)

Kcar said:

Get some Ph+ and Ph-

Click to expand...

He's got pH+ and pH-; I would think he'd be in big trouble w/out it

I didn't think there'd be a problem with PBP / Cal-Mag combo either...

Anything in particular that makes you think a salt buildup may be the cause?

-Q

could be wrong but looks like a N def. id flush mix a new batch of water make sure ph stays at around 5.8 to 6.5 looks like a lil neut brn in there as well.

I use PBP and ive never had anything look even close to that, so lets rule that out. I dont use cal-mad because where im at , my well water is high in calcium. Do you think the cal-mag could be overdoing something? I dont know, just a thought.

salt buildup can cause your plant to show deficiencies even though you are giving them nutes

Hey there Quazi...

Your friend is looking at a toxic salt build-up caused by a nutrient imbalance...

Multiple-nutrient overdose: cupped, brittle older leaves with burned tips, purplish hue, and intervenal chlorosis; new growth is stunted with small dark green leaves and burned tips.

Source: The Indoor Bible

Flush the system with a pH adjusted 1/4 strength nutrient solution...hope this helps...jay

Harvest said:

could be wrong but looks like a N def. id flush mix a new batch of water make sure ph stays at around 5.8 to 6.5 looks like a lil neut brn in there as well.

Click to expand...

I don't think it looks much like an N def. Not with the dark green veins and the light green leaves. I'd expect more of a uniform coloring for an N def. Also, 5.8 - 6.5? That's quite the range... it doesn't even swing that wildly right now. I'd be down for recommending he maybe raise up the pH and stabilize it.

That's a couple people now for toxic salt buildup...

The res is constantly cleaned/changed every week. You think it could be within the pots the plants are in themselves or the controller bucket/tubing?

So, I should consider flushing the system by just running the 1/4 str pH'd water through a couple of times repeatedly or just stick with the same current Ebb & Flow schedule?

Sorry, I'm a dirt guy myself so I just want to make sure I give 'em good and accurate advice.

Thanks to everyone for their input thus far!

-Q

Since you're already using PBP and Cal/Mag+ aaaaand you're using RO water (awesome)... have you tried the Lucas ratios with them.... instead of the mfg's suggestions? (That's usually too strong... dunno)

The Lucas ratio/formula can be reached using PBP BLOOM at 15ml/gal and 5ml of Cal/Mag+/gal of RO water. Since they're under a 400w light, the intensity isn't going to be quite as much and you may want to dilute the full str mix just a bit. (Dunno what the EC/ppm/tds of it would be... just measure full strength mixed and then dilute a bit and measure. Your plants will tell you what's best.)


You're probably using PBP Grow at the moment and unless you're using more than a 400w light to flower them later.... it's not necessary, the Bloom will work fabulous for both veg and bloom.


Keep in mind that too much cal/mag+ can cause just as many issues as not enough. Manufacturers write their recommendations for ALL plants and cannabis is considered a 'light' feeder. Always start with 1/4th of what the mfg recommends and increase the strength from there, according to what your plants tell you.

Stay Safe!

Hydro-Soil said:

Since you're already using PBP and Cal/Mag+ aaaaand you're using RO water (awesome)... have you tried the Lucas ratios with them.... instead of the mfg's suggestions? (That's usually too strong... dunno)

Click to expand...

I haven't checked out Lucas ratios on them yet. He has just been following the chart that they provide.

Hydro-Soil said:

The Lucas ratio/formula can be reached using PBP BLOOM at 15ml/gal and 5ml of Cal/Mag+/gal of RO water. Since they're under a 400w light, the intensity isn't going to be quite as much and you may want to dilute the full str mix just a bit. (Dunno what the EC/ppm/tds of it would be... just measure full strength mixed and then dilute a bit and measure. Your plants will tell you what's best.)

Click to expand...

They are under a 400W MH just for veg. They'll be moved into flower under the 1ks when they're ready.

Hydro-Soil said:

You're probably using PBP Grow at the moment and unless you're using more than a 400w light to flower them later.... it's not necessary, the Bloom will work fabulous for both veg and bloom.

Click to expand...

Correct, PBP Grow and Cal-Mag and, as I said above, they will be moved from the 400W to 1ks so... based on that I guess I'd like 'em to continue to use the PBP Grow to ensure there's a sufficient amount of N available in flower. Correct me if I'm wrong in that logic though...

Hydro-Soil said:

Keep in mind that too much cal/mag+ can cause just as many issues as not enough. Manufacturers write their recommendations for ALL plants and cannabis is considered a 'light' feeder. Always start with 1/4th of what the mfg recommends and increase the strength from there, according to what your plants tell you.

Click to expand...

Rgr that. The Cal-Mag hasn't been added every single time so I would doubt that it would be a toxicity because of it but this is definitely good information and worth mentioning.

Hydro-Soil said:

Stay Safe!

Click to expand...

Thanks much for the input!

-Q

are u using a hydro hut? or do u have negative pressure? Its looks like a problem i had a year ago. I tried changing my fertz and up the ph. I couldn't finger it out.. Then my boy (I & I ), turned me on to icmag ,and I solved my problem. It turns out there was a recall on the hydro huts. So if its not the air flow or off gassing then i dont know so don't give up stay positive and you'll find the answer here from one of the amazing icmag ppl..

THE GENERAL said:

are u using a hydro hut? or do u have negative pressure? Its looks like a problem i had a year ago. I tried changing my fertz and up the ph. I couldn't finger it out.. Then my boy (I & I ), turned me on to icmag ,and I solved my problem. It turns out there was a recall on the hydro huts. So if its not the air flow or off gassing then i dont know so don't give up stay positive and you'll find the answer here from one of the amazing icmag ppl..

Click to expand...

Nope! Big veg room with many other plants. Only the ones hooked up to this E&F Hydro system are showing these signs.

Quazi said:

Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents)
No

Click to expand...

That's the second question I answered in the form!

-Q

Pro, it's a mg def.
Foliage feed them until you get your medium sorted out, otherwise this will drag on through the entire grow. Don't flower them until your sure it is dealt with i.e. healthy new growth plus a week. I have been dealing with this a bit.
Magic Green works great for foliage feeding and it works a lot faster then root zone adjustments.
Make sure you let your ph drift a bit, so the plants have access to the mg. I would also start to add Cal-Mag to your ro water. Low PH will make MG unavailable, try 5.6-6.0 and see how they respond.
Good luck,
Kind

He is already adding Cal-Mag... It's gotta be salt buildup that led to lockout which is causing multiple defs to appear at the same time... More nutes isn't going to help a lockout problem just make it worse... Flush and run nutes at a low ppm... I used Clearex when i was running DWC and that works great for quickly flushing all the nutes away

psycho pirate said:

He is already adding Cal-Mag... It's gotta be salt buildup that led to lockout which is causing multiple defs to appear at the same time... More nutes isn't going to help a lockout problem just make it worse... Flush and run nutes at a low ppm... I used Clearex when i was running DWC and that works great for quickly flushing all the nutes away

Click to expand...

All good, I know what you are saying Pirate, and you are right as it relates to the root zone, but that does not mean that the plants can not be feed via foiliage while nutrient uptake problems persist in the root zone. In fact, it may be the only way you can get nutes to the plant until things aresorted out in the root zone

Kind

I doubt you have salt build up in your hydroton at that stage of growth, unless it wasn't prepared properly since your last grow.

If you use pH imbalances spreadsheet you need:
At the height of veg 10 mL/gal Cal-Mag,18mL PBP Grow for Hydro
At the height of flowering 5mL Cal-Mag,15mL PBP Bloom for Soil, 2mL PBP Bloom for Hydro.

I have used PBP for a while and I have found it works best for veg at 5.8-6.2 and flower at 5.4-5.8. I start off rooted clones in hydroton only at .4EC cal-mag and .9EC PBP grow and work up to the max in a week, 14 days veg, 5 feedings/day. Your plants are under fed. There is no need to change your res every week. I go two weeks for veg, three weeks for beginning of flowering, then four weeks to finish flowering, then flush. If you maintain your water chemistry you shouldn't even need pH up/down very much at all. I also use 2/3 RO water and 1/3 tap, starting pH of 7.4 and EC of .06.

FWIW I just started 12 seeds in rockwool under floro for four days till roots poked out, then right into ebb and flow at 1.4EC, your plants at 400ppm are not burning.

It seems ole Jim is an expert so I will get rid of my dribble and you can listen to him.

Good Luck

Only the Cal-Mag is not organic Jim.

Have A Great Day



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