First closed loop system--Which should I get?

Lono · Apr 25, 2014

Hey there ICmag,

New to CLS but not to BHO. Have done a fair amount of research and I feel like I have an idea of what features I want, and which I don't.

The dry ice sleeves that the sweet leafs and the sub zeros have really appeal to me(saw it in a bret maverick video...gotta love bret). Inline-dewaxing seems like the way to go IMO. Very cool concept(no pun intended).

Now since I don't have 5-10k to shell out on an extractor, the subzero and SL aren't realistic options.

I am pretty much torn between getting a terp mkIII from SF, or a BHOgart. What the decision will really come down to is if it will be cheaper to get a BHOgart and upgrade it to my liking, or to get a mkIII and do the same.

I was thinking of having a middle column with a DI sleeve made, as I don't know of any other alternatives. I'm sure this will be pricey too.

Would there be any problems with the sight glass on the units sticking a column filled with DI above it? I know there is a small space between the two on the sweet leaf, but I know that doesn't necessarily make it safe.

The other feature I would like is the ability to shower or soak. I'm sure BHOgart could add this feature, but I'm not sure how much extra it would be.

I should state that the things that attracted me to the bhogart were:
The price
Little-to-no wait time
Walter-wax's bad ass PHO that he made with the unit

The option to run active or passive would be nice. I would like to hold off on a recovery pump for a bit. Still need to get my oven.
Would like to keep the system under 2500 if possible.

So what do you guys suggest I do? Any input is welcome and appreciated

Thanks guys!

C'Ya · Apr 25, 2014

My suggestion is to do what you've been doing research and pick which you feel is the best you can always modify it later, any CLS should work in passive mode and any feature you see on one can be added to the rest, just have to throw cash at it or know how to make things yourself.
Myself I'd suggest an open source system like Gray Wolf's designs more likely to have better support on an open project than a closed one.
And waiting on a recovery pump in favor of buying a vac oven on a passive system seems silly, your more likely to need oven with faster process using r/c pump. And vac chambers are easy to build and nice to have even with a oven.
But that's my opinion so take it as that.
C'Ya

Lono · Apr 25, 2014

C'Ya said:
My suggestion is to do what you've been doing research and pick which you feel is the best you can always modify it later, any CLS should work in passive mode and any feature you see on one can be added to the rest, just have to throw cash at it or know how to make things yourself.
Myself I'd suggest an open source system like Gray Wolf's designs more likely to have better support on an open project than a closed one.
And waiting on a recovery pump in favor of buying a vac oven on a passive system seems silly, your more likely to need oven with faster process using r/c pump. And vac chambers are easy to build and nice to have even with a oven.
But that's my opinion so take it as that.
C'Ya

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate the suggestions.

Really the only add on I want is the dry ice sleeve, which I can't imagine is too difficult for someone with the proper welding skills to make. I would like to find someone locally to do the job. Just trying to explore all other options. Not sure if someone already makes them a la carte or not.

Any welders in Colorado here feel up to the task

?

The more I think about it, the less I see the need for the sight glass. The safety risks outweigh any benefits IMO(please, correct me if I'm wrong here. not sure of the significance of being able to see the dump). I'm thinking just column>collection pot with DI sleeve>filter>collection pot?

To those who aren't familiar with this type of set up, check this video out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0EO78TjkG4
I know it was posted in another thread here, and got bashed because of Bret's intro. If you don't have the patience, skip to 0:27. Luckily he doesn't have his weed card so it's a quickie.

From what I have gathered, this system seems to be the most efficient. Sure, the same can be achieved using other, cheaper methods. I'm not looking to construct the cheapest unit. I want to construct the unit that produces the best finished product, in the most practical manner possible.

If someone has suggestions for a better method, I'm all ears. And like I said, I'm new. So don't flame me please

PS: I've been reading up on using research grade propane to mix with iso-butane and n-butane to create an optimal solvent mixture. Anyone have any comments on this? Couldn't find a lot of info. Guy I met at the cup, walter wax, was on a bret mav video talking about his mix. The audio was horribly fucked up but I think I heard "70% propane, 30-35% butane." I don't think he specified the amount of iso/N but he said he only uses the n-tane to bump up yields.

I actually had the opportunity to try walter's PHO(propane honey oil) at the cannabis cup. Stuff tasted amazing I thought. I'd love to hear someone else opinion who was able to try it. I guess the propane preserves more terps(faster recovery?)?

Reason I bring up the propane, can these systems handle propane as is or do they require further upgrades? I don't claim to be a chemist or nothin', but I remember seeing butane had a really low pressure at room temp compared to propane. Not sure if that will be a problem or not, but Walter seems to do fine with the bhogart

Thanks ICmag :dance013:

HighStateToke · Apr 25, 2014

Scratch all the options you've mentioned. Hit up Redbeard Extractors, you will be a happy camper.

Edit-I just want to say, my only motive for promoting Redbeard is to help those in need obtain a top of the line extractor for a bargain of a price. It really is the way to go if you are looking to buy a RTR unit.

Lono · Apr 25, 2014

HighStateToke said:
Scratch all the options you've mentioned. Hit up RedBeard Extractors, you will be a happy camper.

Well, the only option I mentioned that redbeard doesn't offer is the DI sleeve...

That being said, can you please elaborate? I'm familiar with redbeard and his units, but why do you say to do away with 'all the options' I mentioned?

I also know redbeard just suggests to freeze your tane and 'not extract the waxes to begin with.' Let's just say we have differing philosophies on the subject.

He also just suggests to pour throw a buchner funnel afterwards. Which, like I mentioned previously, is a cheaper option which requires a second transfer and additional exposure to the atmosphere. Yeah, for making homemade hash, that's fine. But my goal is to make medicine. Even if it costs over $1000 to add this feature to my unit, that's such a small amount of coin for what it does.

Lono · Apr 25, 2014

Was just poking around glacier tanks, parts couldn't be more than a few hundred depending on complexity. No idea how much welding and what not would be needed.

HighStateToke · Apr 25, 2014

Lono said:
Well, the only option I mentioned that redbeard doesn't offer is the DI sleeve...

That being said, can you please elaborate? I'm familiar with redbeard and his units, but why do you say to do away with 'all the options' I mentioned?

I also know redbeard just suggests to freeze your tane and 'not extract the waxes to begin with.' Let's just say we have differing philosophies on the subject.

He also just suggests to pour throw a buchner funnel afterwards. Which, like I mentioned previously, is a cheaper option which requires a second transfer and additional exposure to the atmosphere. Yeah, for making homemade hash, that's fine. But my goal is to make medicine. Even if it costs over $1000 to add this feature to my unit, that's such a small amount of coin for what it does.

IMO the BHOgart is an inferior design in comparison to a Terpenator. I am too tired to explain in detail at this hour. But to list a few, your butane must run through a compound gauge, inability to bottom up flood, ect..

As for the sweetleaf, it is wildly expensive and equally as dangerous, using Viton gaskets at dry ice temperatures can be disastrous. Not to mention the location of the sight glass.

If you are really inclined to add a dewaxing feature, I think adding it to a Terpenator would be your best bet.

HighStateToke · Apr 25, 2014

Lono said:
He also just suggests to pour throw a buchner funnel afterwards. Which, like I mentioned previously, is a cheaper option which requires a second transfer and additional exposure to the atmosphere. Yeah, for making homemade hash, that's fine. But my goal is to make medicine.

As for this, that is your personal opinion. Oil which has been inline dewaxed is no more medicine than oil which has been dewaxed with a buchner funnel. Although I absolutely understand this from a safety perspective.

Lono · Apr 25, 2014

HighStateToke said:
As for this, that is your personal opinion. Oil which has been inline dewaxed is no more medicine than oil which has been dewaxed with a buchner funnel. Although I absolutely understand this from a safety perspective.

I certainly didn't mean it that way. My point was that the inline dewaxing allows it to be exposed to open air for less time. Allowing less chance for any type of contamination. I'm willing/trying to take any step I can to make sure my medicine is as pure and clean as possible. And that goes far beyond residual solvents.

Appreciate all the input though for sure, will definitely look into the gauges. Although I was aware of most of everything else you listed, I didn't really factor it into my budget. I'm realizing now that my original $2500 is looking rather unrealistic.

The only reason I am considering a modified bhogart is because GW himself said that with a few tweaks it could be the same thing. Which is why I stated top and bottom feed options etc.

What do you think about going that route? Only benefits may be that I can get it faster, but I may be able to build essentially the same thing. I was super baked the entire time at the cup, but when I spoke with the bhogart rep I'm pretty sure he said they can build it pretty much any way I want. So I don't see any of these options I have in mind being out of the question

Lono · Apr 25, 2014

HighStateToke said:
As for this, that is your personal opinion. Oil which has been inline dewaxed is no more medicine than oil which has been dewaxed with a buchner funnel. Although I absolutely understand this from a safety perspective.

That did sound horribly snobby in retrospect, my bad. It's too late for me :biggrin:

Should say that I think pouring through a buncher is absolutely fine, just think the inline is more precautionary as it is contained.

Gray Wolf · Apr 25, 2014

Lono said:
I certainly didn't mean it that way. My point was that the inline dewaxing allows it to be exposed to open air for less time. Allowing less chance for any type of contamination. I'm willing/trying to take any step I can to make sure my medicine is as pure and clean as possible. And that goes far beyond residual solvents.

Appreciate all the input though for sure, will definitely look into the gauges. Although I was aware of most of everything else you listed, I didn't really factor it into my budget. I'm realizing now that my original $2500 is looking rather unrealistic.

The only reason I am considering a modified bhogart is because GW himself said that with a few tweaks it could be the same thing. Which is why I stated top and bottom feed options etc.

What do you think about going that route? Only benefits may be that I can get it faster, but I may be able to build essentially the same thing. I was super baked the entire time at the cup, but when I spoke with the bhogart rep I'm pretty sure he said they can build it pretty much any way I want. So I don't see any of these options I have in mind being out of the question

I'm under the impression that RB has added the ability to evacuate the columns separately from the pot, and the top final rinse feature, so what I would suggest is asking BHOgart how much they would charge to build in those Terpenator features, if you want a apples and apples comparison.

A BHOgart is a top down flow through design, where the Terpenator allows bottom up or top down floods and soaks, plus the column recovers separately from the pot, which allows high heat to be used without affecting the product, and cuts 30 minutes off the Mk V recovery cycle.

When we've extracted with -50C butane, and subsequently winterized it, there was very little residual waxes to be removed, so I too recommend not extracting the waxes in the first place.

While a dry ice sleeve adds benefits on a flow through system, it adds very little if any to a recycling system using subzero butane.
You can always start with subzero columns, and inject subzero butane with a Terpenator, if you believe in subzero columns.

The easy way to inline dewax, is to use two chambers with a inline filter between them. Chill the butane mixture in the first chamber, pass it through the inline filter to the second chamber, from which it is recovered as a vapor, leaving behind the dewaxed oil.

PS: You can get a pile of parts from either Red Beard or WolfWurx and modify it to suit yourself. Unfortunately WolfWurx's first Mk IV order has sold out before arriving, so RB would ostensibly be the faster choice. Half of the Mk V's are gone as well, with full ancillaries including automation, leaving only a few bare kits available.

Consider choosing a different pump than the Caresaver Universal, regardless of whose kit you get, as it isn't oil less.

rb extractors · Apr 25, 2014

Correct, you can evac separately on our new model. You can do it on our old model too if you put a ball valve on your butane line closest to the recovery tank and then disconnect and hook it up to a second appion. I only find it necessary when running 5lb columns.

I agree that people feel differently about freezing columns and butane and achieving a partial dewaxing versus inline or even using a buchner. The thing is, nobody other than GW has probably done comparisons to see how efficient each is.

There currently isn't a closed loop system out there that I am aware of that safely inline dewaxes. SL doesn't use dry ice rated gaskets and the location of their sight glass is another potential danger area. Plus, it is a passive system and is slow.

What you could do is follow our method for partial and then recover a portion of your butane, but the bottom spool in dry ice to chill the pool of butane further and then pour into buchner's.

I really doubt that inline versus our method will be that much different. Obviously SL has a big pile of wax on their filter but they don't freeze their butane or their material so they are picking up way more waxes.

If you absolutely wanted a sleeve and clearly you have money to burn... why not just make a sleeve through your local machine shop? It'll cost less than buying it from someone else.

Lono · Apr 25, 2014

Gray Wolf said:
I'm under the impression that RB has added the ability to evacuate the columns separately from the pot, and the top final rinse feature, so what I would suggest is asking BHOgart how much they would charge to build in those Terpenator features, if you want a apples and apples comparison.

A BHOgart is a top down flow through design, where the Terpenator allows bottom up or top down floods and soaks, plus the column recovers separately from the pot, which allows high heat to be used without affecting the product, and cuts 30 minutes off the Mk V recovery cycle.

When we've extracted with -50C butane, and subsequently winterized it, there was very little residual waxes to be removed, so I too recommend not extracting the waxes in the first place.

While a dry ice sleeve adds benefits on a flow through system, it adds very little if any to a recycling system using subzero butane.
You can always start with subzero columns, and inject subzero butane with a Terpenator, if you believe in subzero columns.

The easy way to inline dewax, is to use two chambers with a inline filter between them. Chill the butane mixture in the first chamber, pass it through the inline filter to the second chamber, from which it is recovered as a vapor, leaving behind the dewaxed oil.

PS: You can get a pile of parts from either Red Beard or WolfWurx and modify it to suit yourself. Unfortunately WolfWurx's first Mk IV order has sold out before arriving, so RB would ostensibly be the faster choice. Half of the Mk V's are gone as well, with full ancillaries including automation, leaving only a few bare kits available.

Consider choosing a different pump than the Caresaver Universal, regardless of whose kit you get, as it isn't oil less.

ahh yes, I overlooked the ability to evac the column separately. Definitely like that feature as well.

I figured if you weren't doing something, I shouldn't be doing it either. Not that I blindly follow you or nothin', just truly admire your work

thank you for all your selfless contributions to the community Graywolf! I've learned so much from you over the years. Were truly blessed to have you!

Lono · Apr 25, 2014

rb extractors said:
Correct, you can evac separately on our new model. You can do it on our old model too if you put a ball valve on your butane line closest to the recovery tank and then disconnect and hook it up to a second appion. I only find it necessary when running 5lb columns.

I agree that people feel differently about freezing columns and butane and achieving a partial dewaxing versus inline or even using a buchner. The thing is, nobody other than GW has probably done comparisons to see how efficient each is.

There currently isn't a closed loop system out there that I am aware of that safely inline dewaxes. SL doesn't use dry ice rated gaskets and the location of their sight glass is another potential danger area. Plus, it is a passive system and is slow.

What you could do is follow our method for partial and then recover a portion of your butane, but the bottom spool in dry ice to chill the pool of butane further and then pour into buchner's.

I really doubt that inline versus our method will be that much different. Obviously SL has a big pile of wax on their filter but they don't freeze their butane or their material so they are picking up way more waxes.

If you absolutely wanted a sleeve and clearly you have money to burn... why not just make a sleeve through your local machine shop? It'll cost less than buying it from someone else.

you know, you may have been the guy I've been looking for all along rb

thanks for dropping by!

is if alright if I call you to discuss a unit or would you prefer pm/email? I think I have a pretty good understanding of what I want now thanks to you and GW. Scraping the DI sleeve for sure.

rb extractors · Apr 25, 2014

glad to help. email me as trying to coordinate calls can be difficult for me at times.

Grow4Flow · Apr 26, 2014

HighStateToke said:
Scratch all the options you've mentioned. Hit up Redbeard Extractors, you will be a happy camper.

Edit-I just want to say, my only motive for promoting Redbeard is to help those in need obtain a top of the line extractor for a bargain of a price. It really is the way to go if you are looking to buy a RTR unit.

Have you already gotten one as had a chance to use it to determine it is top of the line?

Lono · Apr 26, 2014

Grow4Flow, appreciate the suggestions you gave me. I sent RB an email, waiting to hear back. If I'm not mistaken, RB's unit is a modified terp. It seems that most of these guys making these types of units are having trouble getting parts. Do you know if that is the reason for the delay on your unit? If so, you would likely experience the same thing with others. But I agree that communication is important, a it is the vendors job to communicate with customers IMO(even though I know this may be difficult at times).

Redbeard seems to be a straight up dude though, and I wouldn't mind giving him my business.

I have been considering just building my unit from scratch. Just found out my partner has a TIG welder and says he can handle this stuff. Not sure about an certifications or anything he may/may not have. But if I can piece the unit together and make it for a fraction of the cost, why not?

One reason I've thought of is that it may indeed be a bitch tracking down all of these parts, getting them machined/electropolished, etc in a timely manner. Redbeard has experience doing all of this so I figure if the time difference is minimal, it will be worth paying him for his expertise. Even though I can more than likely build the unit to my liking without any issues...as many people have.

Besides, isn't the old saying, "buy your first CLS, build your second?"

Graywolf + Redbeard, I came up with an alternative to the dry ice sleeve based on your suggestions, and also the sweetleaf v2.0. Not sure if it has been done already, but here it goes:

Add a middle collection chamber that can hold all of the oil laden butane. Isolate it with ball valves.

After extraction is complete, close valve on bottom of column, and close valve on top of middle chamber. The ball valve on the bottom of the middle chamber and top of collection pot are already closed.

Remove middle collection pot and chill in dry ice for desired amount of time. After chilling, reconnect system, and open valve on top of collection pot. Under this valve is a lab filter which will collect the waxes. You then open the valve on the bottom of the middle tank and the rest goes as it usually does...

I have a more detailed diagram of everything, just too tired to pretty it up for posting right now. What do you guys think? Is something like this feasible? I would imagine the amount of welding/machining required would be minimal. Would love to hear some opinions(especially from you guys GW and RB

)

Cheers!

SneakySneaky · Apr 26, 2014

I'd wait for gw's his are the origional and extremely modifiable. It's like saying which is better, a Swiss Army knife or a knockoff Swiss Army knife, ones the original the other isn't but both will accomplish the job.

Gray Wolf · Apr 26, 2014

Lono said:
Grow4Flow, appreciate the suggestions you gave me. I sent RB an email, waiting to hear back. If I'm not mistaken, RB's unit is a modified terp. It seems that most of these guys making these types of units are having trouble getting parts. Do you know if that is the reason for the delay on your unit? If so, you would likely experience the same thing with others. But I agree that communication is important, a it is the vendors job to communicate with customers IMO(even though I know this may be difficult at times).

Redbeard seems to be a straight up dude though, and I wouldn't mind giving him my business.

I have been considering just building my unit from scratch. Just found out my partner has a TIG welder and says he can handle this stuff. Not sure about an certifications or anything he may/may not have. But if I can piece the unit together and make it for a fraction of the cost, why not?

One reason I've thought of is that it may indeed be a bitch tracking down all of these parts, getting them machined/electropolished, etc in a timely manner. Redbeard has experience doing all of this so I figure if the time difference is minimal, it will be worth paying him for his expertise. Even though I can more than likely build the unit to my liking without any issues...as many people have.

Besides, isn't the old saying, "buy your first CLS, build your second?"

Graywolf + Redbeard, I came up with an alternative to the dry ice sleeve based on your suggestions, and also the sweetleaf v2.0. Not sure if it has been done already, but here it goes:

Add a middle collection chamber that can hold all of the oil laden butane. Isolate it with ball valves.

After extraction is complete, close valve on bottom of column, and close valve on top of middle chamber. The ball valve on the bottom of the middle chamber and top of collection pot are already closed.

Remove middle collection pot and chill in dry ice for desired amount of time. After chilling, reconnect system, and open valve on top of collection pot. Under this valve is a lab filter which will collect the waxes. You then open the valve on the bottom of the middle tank and the rest goes as it usually does...

I have a more detailed diagram of everything, just too tired to pretty it up for posting right now. What do you guys think? Is something like this feasible? I would imagine the amount of welding/machining required would be minimal. Would love to hear some opinions(especially from you guys GW and RB )

Cheers!

A picture is worth at least 1000 words and it doesn't have to be purdy.

Grow4Flow · Apr 26, 2014

I would say go with what offers the best support, there is plenty of that here. Most are using Terps and sharing their successes with them, if there are any issues it is easy to get help from the many Terp users here as well as the very one who engineered it.

First closed loop system--Which should I get?

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