poison co2 generator

With nothing in room will the CO2 generator run? You can't run it for 1 24 hour period? OK. -granger

newestguy said:

Those are good finds, it is an interesting problem. I think the really pertinent part in the case of this generator is that no matter how it was set up it, if it was possible to reach the desired co2 concentration the other gas would build up enough to cause the symptoms.

It seems like in most of the other threads about it people were able to fix it by periodically venting the room. That definitely did not work here. I think it would be a fair assessment to say that different generators (or maybe different room configurations) cause different amounts of the gas.

The pic that testymctester posted is a spot on perfect example of this problem, Im glad he took it. I never pulled a plant out and really documented it. I think this happens more than people think, just on varying levels.

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Well at least it makes for good reading, thought I was on to something XD

testy's pic looks like the VPD I was hit with on my 1st round in a sealed enviroment.
drooping leaves, sign of a mag and or lockout issues.
never a prob unsealed and i had the same temps and RH.
but in the sealed situation these probs hit in when RH went below 60%Rh and very quickly/severely when i hit below 50%rh


btw newguy,
I went closed loop on the HW tankless Co2 gen for a while but the 40gal trash can used took up too much waste and was a prob with getting water nasties in it too fast and having to clean it more than i had time for.
i went drain to waste after, since it cycles on for less than 30sec. I doubt i dump more than 7-10gal a day

The only thing I can imagine is different in my garden vs other peoples is air movement. i use a lot of oscillators. I have them all set up were they don't hit plants (or generator) directly but because there is so much bouncing off the walls everything gets at least a breeze past it. I was careful in checking that fans weren't hitting the generator, but wanted to throw it out there as the only possible difference i could imagine.

Mikell said:

Well at least it makes for good reading, thought I was on to something XD

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No you are on to something, that is exactly the issue we are talking about here. The only difference between their situation and mine is that mine could not be fixed with periodic or even constant (mild) air exchange.

the gnome said:

testy's pic looks like the VPD I was hit with on my 1st round in a sealed enviroment.
drooping leaves, sign of a mag and or lockout issues.
never a prob unsealed and i had the same temps and RH.
but in the sealed situation these probs hit in when RH went below 60%Rh and very quickly/severely when i hit below 50%rh


btw newguy,
I went closed loop on the HW tankless Co2 gen for a while but the 40gal trash can used took up too much waste and was a prob with getting water nasties in it too fast and having to clean it more than i had time for.
i went drain to waste after, since it cycles on for less than 30sec. I doubt i dump more than 7-10gal a day

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Ya I would have thought VPD myself at first, that and N tox, mag def, but I promise you what you are looking at in that picture is the effects of what ever byproduct of combustion this is.

I promise you I waited for EVER to blame the gen. it is not a good practice to start blaming things that are designed for the job they are performing. I usually start looking at any thing I have influence over. That is why I spent the 10 days after I realized air cooling fixed it. After they popped back from air cooling I turned back on the gen for 10 days and tried every conceivable arraingment of venting air, raising and lowering temp and RH. I have humidifiers and dehus in this room so I went all over the place RH wise looking for the problem. Same with temps.

Didn't think I was gonna post this thread so I didn't document it, wish I would have. I realized its a somewhat common problem when I saw it in a friends garden. Convinced him to switch to bottles and the change is undeniable. He had 2 years under his belt with his cap generator. He didn't seem to build up the problem as fast but it was there without a doubt.

Mikell said:

Alllllright. So maybe found something.

For one thing, you can try raising your temps closer to the low 80s, (tying in to the whole reason we can raise CO2, when the earths atmosphere was different and temperatures were warmer). There are calculations for specific ppm of CO2 to temp ratio, I think Snype posted them here, though I may be wrong.

Anyway,



Specifically, this post


The initial problem sounds similar, CO2 burner in a fully sealed room, plants droop and falter.

Summarized, the CO2 burner depletes O2 levels, causing incomplete combustion of the propane, leading to ethylene and SO2 build up.




At the least I've significantly added to the general confusion XD Maybe helped, maybe not, but some good reading if you enjoy that sort of mental racking.

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excellent posts, lots of food for thought
things seems to come back to the O2 depletion scenario
as long as fresh air is periodically pushed in things are good.
and what exactly are the ppms when the burner is used.


maybe there's an occasional bad batch of propane,
enuff to cause these probs in grows.
if I exp. it i would go to a tank asap and not want to exp. those probs again, maybe a diff. tank of gas would make a diff.

Some generators are designed for Natural gas, some for Liquid Propane. They need to be setup correctly. I forget which one, but there is a reducing fitting that goes in the gas piping. if you have a nat gas generator an running LP there will be issues.

Just a thought..

b-safe

That's a good point as well.

All you bottled users, have you got any numbers on price difference or is it marginal one way or the other? Of course it would depend on your base price per bottle, size of bottle, etc. Perhaps a good link to avoid threadjacking?

Haven't looked at bottled in awhile, but I was about to start poking around here and elsewhere for price comparisons and it might save some redundant searching.

gmanwho said:

Some generators are designed for Natural gas, some for Liquid Propane. They need to be setup correctly. I forget which one, but there is a reducing fitting that goes in the gas piping. if you have a nat gas generator an running LP there will be issues.

Just a thought..

b-safe

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the only diff between nat and propane burners are the opening size on the jets, nat runs way lower pressure and has a larger opening on the jet.m
any co2 gens come with the extra jets for either one.
it probaly wont work using nat gas -->propane burner
big fire hazard immediately using propane--->gas burner

the gnome said:

excellent posts, lots of food for thought
things seems to come back to the O2 depletion scenario
as long as fresh air is periodically pushed in things are good.
and what exactly are the ppms when the burner is used.


maybe there's an occasional bad batch of propane,
enuff to cause these probs in grows.
if I exp. it i would go to a tank asap and not want to exp. those probs again, maybe a diff. tank of gas would make a diff.

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I wondered about the quality of the propane as well, I sourced it many different places over this experience though. LOL, yep your right, the idea of doing any more "testing" on my stuff is not very palatable.

gmanwho said:

Some generators are designed for Natural gas, some for Liquid Propane. They need to be setup correctly. I forget which one, but there is a reducing fitting that goes in the gas piping. if you have a nat gas generator an running LP there will be issues.

Just a thought..

b-safe

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This was definitely labeled as LP and used with LP. I wondered if maybe it shipped with the wrong nozzles, maybe high altitude or something. I do not believe so though because everyone agrees the flame looks fine. If the nozzles where incorrect or if it were in fact a mislabled NG model it would have a horrible flame. It is my understanding that it is not possible to misuse the NG or LP as they just won't hook up.

Mikell said:

That's a good point as well.

All you bottled users, have you got any numbers on price difference or is it marginal one way or the other? Of course it would depend on your base price per bottle, size of bottle, etc. Perhaps a good link to avoid threadjacking?

Haven't looked at bottled in awhile, but I was about to start poking around here and elsewhere for price comparisons and it might save some redundant searching.

Click to expand...

Bottles definitely cost more but the return is sweet . Don't have an exact number but it gets expensive.

the gnome said:

the only diff between nat and propane burners are the opening size on the jets, nat runs way lower pressure and has a larger opening on the jet.m
any co2 gens come with the extra jets for either one.
it probaly wont work using nat gas -->propane burner
big fire hazard immediately using propane--->gas burner

Click to expand...

This is the impression I got from everyone when I asked if it was possibly mislabeled. They said it wouldn't hook up.

the generator hook up side probably would be the same. the connecting supply hose end would be different. My cap gen is fully interchangeable. But you say the flame is good. I'm not sure what a lp flame would look like on an nat gas burner.

ya man, the return is sweet when everything works correctly. I can say i seen a difference from running 1000ppm or 1500. Atleast for my setup.

i felt things stalled at 1500. I noticed this directly as the Res water levels werent dropping as much. Meaning the plants where uptaking less. I started 800, then 1000, then 1200 then 1500 over a few days. as i raised the ppm past 1200 i started adding less back to the res. Meaning the plants uptake had slowed during the 1500 vs 1000. i then lowered back to 1000 an by the end of that light cycle i noticed they started uptaking more nutes again. then i said " a 1000 ppm would be cheaper to run from aspects anyways.." less heat, less fuel.

as growshopfrank said, i'd be curious to see the flame after not opening the room for awhile. i have read somewhere that there is a poisonous gas byproduct produced in a flame when the oxygen levels are reduced. ethyl gas type by product, i think.

hope you figure it out .. b-safe

newestguy said:

Definitely had the humidity dealt with, honestly most people running mini splits or central air aren't gonna have much of a problem. For whatever reason it kind of works out that by the time the AC has dealt with the heat from the burner it has also dehu any RH associated. Have plenty of dehus and definitely have the room well monitored (kind of an environment junky)

Honestly whatever this problem is/was it was extremely insidious in the sense that all parameters were as close to perfect as is possible and yet the general health was so low.

All I can really say is if you are running a sealed room with a generator and you are fighting phantom problems and a lack of general health do yourself the biggest favor and switch it up to bottled gas for a minute. LOL everyone has an old bottle laying around, and holy shit what a difference it made. Can't tell you how frustrating this was to deal with.

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I know this thread is a year old but I just had to post because I have had the EXACT SAME PROBLEMS for TWO F'ING YEARS!

I just figured out today that my Sentinel VCG-27LP burner has a leak. Took me two years of trying everything under the sun to fix my plants to figure this out. I too have been running a new sealed room. I too questioned my skills and tried everything under the sun. I too had all the same problems: yellowing/dying leaves, curled downward "clawing" leaves and worst of all LACK OF OIL PRODUCTION leading to multiple harvests of schwag ass results...

I figured it all out by moving a single plant from my sealed flower room back into my mom room which is fresh air (no CO2 burner). The plant perked right up and looked much better within 24 hours. So then I turned off the burner in the flower room, closed the LP tank valve and opened the door to the room (to provide some fresh air). Within 24 hours of doing this all of my plants that were "clawing" in the previously sealed room perked up and pointed towards the sky. So I realized the problem had something to do with the burner.

Today I called Sentinel tech support. He wasn't sure what the problem could be and wouldn't admit that the burner could cause such problems but he asked me to try checking all the connections and burners for leaks. He said to make sure all threaded connections were snug and that the burners were screwed into the manifold well. He said I could spray soapy water on the hose connections...

...And that's how I FOUND A LEAK! At the end of the hose there is a black collar that screws onto the LP tank. Just behind that collar is a black plastic connector. It was bubbling when sprayed with the soapy water. I have not yet replaced the hose (I will do that asap and report back here) but I am really hoping that will be the silver bullet for all my woes for the past two years.

newestguy - I am really curious if you ever went back to using a burner. Did you? If so please provide details and results. Did you ever check thoroughly for propane leaks with your problematic burner? Thanks a lot for posting this thread. It has helped me work closer to resolving my longstanding problems...

Have any others known propane leaks to cause "clawing" and dying leaves?

BIG SHOUT OUT to the gnome for your help on other threads. My HydroFogger helped eliminate some of my symptoms and now I'm hoping the burner fix will leave me smoking nasty sticky goodness

Some of my past threads chasing this problem and pics:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=254760

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=276985

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=309267

propane leaks have been known to cause explosions... If ur going to run a co2 gen inside (a building code violation in most states I believe) check for leaks often... Cause it could go boom

ALL of the water heater burners are Chinese built, I imagine most of the purpose built are as well. The hose and regulator that come with these units are total junk. do yourself a favor and visit a local gas supply company in your area and have them make you one with a long hose, quality regulator and fittings.

Most propane devices are used outdoors and on demand, tanks are open and shut when used. We are leaving them unattended and wide open.

When my room smells like burn propane .. my plants look like shit .... I have a feeling it's dirty propane .... LAME

I've seen this thread a few times but didn't respond because I really don't have anything to offer other than I haven't experienced these problems.My propane tank is in the room next door where I dry my plants,and in 13 years I have smelled it maybe twice,both times it was easily fixed by exchanging tanks.I run the hose through a hole in the wall because I need every bit of space I can get in my 8 by 8 flower room.I have been through two green air CD6's in a little over a decade,the last one lasting a good 7 years.I am glad I haven't experienced this "off gassing' problem,I wish I had some answers.I guess I just wanted to put in a good word for sealed rooms with burners,It's been great for me the biggest issue being heat

mowood3479 said:

propane leaks have been known to cause explosions... If ur going to run a co2 gen inside (a building code violation in most states I believe) check for leaks often... Cause it could go boom

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I'm such a tool aka hypocrite.. I was just re reading this thread and found this advice I gave.. I haven't checked any of my burners for leaks in at least 3 years... Lol. I guess I prob should

mowood3479 said:

I'm such a tool aka hypocrite.. I was just re reading this thread and found this advice I gave.. I haven't checked any of my burners for leaks in at least 3 years... Lol. I guess I prob should

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Always nice to be a step ahead but if things are/have been fine I wouldn't create a problem by tinkering with shit like that if things are perfect...

Pretty sure this thread might have saved my life. My burner was nice and blue little flower flames for probably the first 3 weeks, I was super anal about checking it, have a high quality co2 controller that measures in 100 increments so i knew it was working and I was keeping my ppm at around 1300. Suddenly out of nowhere was no end of drama with my plants.


Shit like this started showing up all over the place. Decided to go over everything, got to the burner and decided to take the panel off and found the burners like this.

Look just like ops, with the blackness but it's not a residue it seems burnt in from use.

Decided to turn it on and check the flames while I had the panel off, and yeah I think i might have some slight carbon monoxide poisoning just from taking this video. But yeah there is no way it's supposed to put off that much orange flame!
[YOUTUBE IF] https://youtu.be/_wXPGRnRvc4[/YOUTUBEIF]

So what the hell is causing this? Has my gas gone bad? I have no leaks anywhere I checked the shit out of everything, every single connection on this thing with soapy water and there are no leaks. I pulled the burners off and tried to clean the black shit off but its like burned on.

I've ordered a carbon monoxide meter so I can see what it's putting out, and I'm gonna buy a brand new gas bottle and fill it myself but yeah if that doesn't sort it I guess its just a shit unit and it's not combusting correctly? I actually found a video I took when it was only a few days old and you can see its got a nice blue flower flame with only slightly orange flickers.
[YOUTUBEIF]https://youtu.be/26_40mb3fVk[/YOUTUBEIF]
Not sure what to think or do with it now other then take it to the dump and just get a gas bottle.

But yeah just glad I figured this shit out before I dropped dead of carbon monoxide poisoning one day in my grow room with no one to find me lol.

A gasfitter is trained to properly clean burner manifolds.

Some grow stores offer this service but one has to wonder if it performed by a qualified person or simply someone trained to the task.

One suggestion, after installing a CO detector, would be to observe the flame periodically during light cycle. If the burner gradually becomes yellow, the issue may be incomplete combustion resulting from oxygen deficiency. Not easy to diagnose as each time you enter you are introducing fresh air.

Mikell said:

A gasfitter is trained to properly clean burner manifolds.

Some grow stores offer this service but one has to wonder if it performed by a qualified person or simply someone trained to the task.

One suggestion, after installing a CO detector, would be to observe the flame periodically during light cycle. If the burner gradually becomes yellow, the issue may be incomplete combustion resulting from oxygen deficiency. Not easy to diagnose as each time you enter you are introducing fresh air.

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i run my lights 24/7, i will be getting a new gas bottle and getting it refilled at a welding supply store where i know the gas is going to be ok, not have to worry about a shitty swap and go bottle from bunnings. the bottle im using is near on 10 years old so could be from old gas also.

i dont really want to take my co2 burner to someone to clean it is it something i could manage on my own? other then that i might just move to co2 bottles but if i can get this working would be great. and yeah hard to check when im in the room like you said.