Lot of questions about making my own beans, with good reason..

Puffster · Nov 3, 2018

Hi there, long time member returning from hiatus due to taking up growing again. Will try my hand at indoors again, perhaps even venture outdoors next summer. We'll see.

Anyway, the is my current situation, with about three weeks until all my parts like tent, fan, filter, oscillating fans, active intake fan, pots, nutes, compressed coco and biobizz light mix (will feed with AN ph-perfect grow\micro\bloom. Minimal with grow due to the reasons below, they will mostly make due with the mix I have of biobizz light-mix (40%), (coco 35%), perlite (25%), vermiculite (5%) (yeah I know, I will have to water and nute plenty with that mix, but I like to be in control of the exact nute level, nothing pre-added. I learn my plants to feed from the tray with a 2-3 day dry period early on in their life cycle so the roots go digging. Pots in the bottom and 2 x 25litres 60 x 60cm x h:7cm trays will both have clay pebbles in them, so there is no compressed medium between the bottom roots and the water\nute mix.

So, since I can't keep permanent mothers and clone tents due to stealth reasons, I go from seed when I grow. Thing is my prefered growing method have always been and will always be SOG with some density.

Got a new tent and gear coming soon, which will be a L:120cm x W:60cm x 150cm tall. Hgl 260 watt led QB plus some supplemental stuff.

Anyway, that is the only tent that I can keep running at all times. Will do a test run first with 36 1,7l 12cm x 12 cm x H:13 pots, that is removing one pot in depth and width plus an entire length row so there will be some room, still going pretty much straight to the point, all plants will be set at 12/12 after 5-6 days breaking soil (or cocoa brick). At a maximum I can fit 50 of these 1,7l pots into my tent at once (using every cm available, on the dot.)

Clearly it isn't sustainable for me to keep purchasing these feminized seeds at such numbers every 35 days or so, we are talking big bucks. So sooner rather than later, I need to make my own.

I know ideally we start the one to be reversed 14 days earlier to get the timing right. Would it still work if I didn't though? Or would I have to preserve the pollen until my next run and then hit the most promising pheno (for me that is fat lollipops with minimal branching and good bud to leaf ratio, finishing after 52 days max (yeah these new fast version, quick version, early version and whatever the different things breeders call them, they are really 40-52 days fast from 12\12.

So what I plan to do is from my high density SOG picks the two most promising ones (you can usually tell with uniform genetics like these from pretty early on. Things like internoding, branching and structure give the winners for my purpose away. Well, actually only a smoke test can do that, but I'll do that afterwards and just donate the seeds if I find them not worth it.

So in between all this rambling (I've just smoked a phat one, writing with a grin :smoking

it all cooks down to these questions:

Can I buy a micro drying tent or seedling tent, which I just add some LED's to when I want two girls to meet up for some treatment and mingling? This will be removed and taken into my apartment storage when I am not drying or making seed. Any suggestions?
What should I use for reversing, and when should I start? Should I use CS, pre-made solution, STS?
Will I be able to reverse and pollinate from the same run of 36-50 seeds? Or will the reversed one be too late for the one to get hit with the pollen?
I am a minimal effort kind of guy, do I need to collect and dust or will two plants with one being reversed stood in the same micro tent just take care of business naturally? (then I figure the plant will also self polinate to a certain degree, given not all it's parts has been treated, won't it?
Or will I have to go with option two, find the candidate for reversal in run #1, collect and store the reversed pollen, and then hit up the selected lady in run #2?
Is it known to have adverse effects on the outcome reversing a feminized plant, and then hitting another feminized plant with it? (And probably him\her-self as well)?

Yeah, quite a bit of questions in one go there :dance013:

Douglas.Curtis · Nov 3, 2018

I love femmed seeds.

I strongly recommend making your own STS solution. I did a full writeup on making/using it over here. I need to copy it and make it a post here at some point. It's all the information I've gleaned from the forums and my personal experience, with the base information coming from R.C Clarke's original publishing.

Micro-Grow, yes. I strongly recommend having separate grows for the pollen and seed generation. A micro-grow will produce an amazing amount of pollen from a single plant, under a few LED's.

STS, in varying concentrations and makeup will do the job for you. All the information you need is here. Begin spraying at least 5 days before flower. I spray every 5 days until male flower pods show in abundance, some strains may require less.

You can reverse one plant in a tent, and pollinate another in the same tent. The reversed plant should dump pollen when the non-reversed is still 5 weeks from the regular harvest date.

I don't know the whole femming breeding debate, other than past a few generations you'll run into issues. I don't personally see a problem with crossing femmed with femmed, as long as the result is simply for growing out for flower, or selecting for further breeding to males.

I'll work on tossing the post up here, lots of stuff going on though.

MJPassion · Nov 4, 2018

Puffster said:
Hi there, long time member returning from hiatus due to taking up growing again. Will try my hand at indoors again, perhaps even venture outdoors next summer. We'll see.

Anyway, the is my current situation, with about three weeks until all my parts like tent, fan, filter, oscillating fans, active intake fan, pots, nutes, compressed coco and biobizz light mix (will feed with AN ph-perfect grow\micro\bloom. Minimal with grow due to the reasons below, they will mostly make due with the mix I have of biobizz light-mix (40%), (coco 35%), perlite (25%), vermiculite (5%) (yeah I know, I will have to water and nute plenty with that mix, but I like to be in control of the exact nute level, nothing pre-added. I learn my plants to feed from the tray with a 2-3 day dry period early on in their life cycle so the roots go digging. Pots in the bottom and 2 x 25litres 60 x 60cm x h:7cm trays will both have clay pebbles in them, so there is no compressed medium between the bottom roots and the water\nute mix.

So, since I can't keep permanent mothers and clone tents due to stealth reasons, I go from seed when I grow. Thing is my prefered growing method have always been and will always be SOG with some density.

Got a new tent and gear coming soon, which will be a L:120cm x W:60cm x 150cm tall. Hgl 260 watt led QB plus some supplemental stuff.

Anyway, that is the only tent that I can keep running at all times. Will do a test run first with 36 1,7l 12cm x 12 cm x H:13 pots, that is removing one pot in depth and width plus an entire length row so there will be some room, still going pretty much straight to the point, all plants will be set at 12/12 after 5-6 days breaking soil (or cocoa brick). At a maximum I can fit 50 of these 1,7l pots into my tent at once (using every cm available, on the dot.)

Clearly it isn't sustainable for me to keep purchasing these feminized seeds at such numbers every 35 days or so, we are talking big bucks. So sooner rather than later, I need to make my own.

I know ideally we start the one to be reversed 14 days earlier to get the timing right. Would it still work if I didn't though? Or would I have to preserve the pollen until my next run and then hit the most promising pheno (for me that is fat lollipops with minimal branching and good bud to leaf ratio, finishing after 52 days max (yeah these new fast version, quick version, early version and whatever the different things breeders call them, they are really 40-52 days fast from 12\12.

So what I plan to do is from my high density SOG picks the two most promising ones (you can usually tell with uniform genetics like these from pretty early on. Things like internoding, branching and structure give the winners for my purpose away. Well, actually only a smoke test can do that, but I'll do that afterwards and just donate the seeds if I find them not worth it.

So in between all this rambling (I've just smoked a phat one, writing with a grin :smoking it all cooks down to these questions:

Can I buy a micro drying tent or seedling tent, which I just add some LED's to when I want two girls to meet up for some treatment and mingling? This will be removed and taken into my apartment storage when I am not drying or making seed. Any suggestions?

What should I use for reversing, and when should I start? Should I use CS, pre-made solution, STS?

Will I be able to reverse and pollinate from the same run of 36-50 seeds? As long as you are not using auto flower genetics you can reverse and pollinate at any time so long as you can take clones. Or will the reversed one be too late for the one to get hit with the pollen?

I am a minimal effort kind of guy, do I need to collect and dust or will two plants with one being reversed stood in the same micro tent just take care of business naturally? (then I figure the plant will also self polinate to a certain degree, given not all it's parts has been treated, won't it? Some reversed females require pollen extraction due to the pollen not easily releasing from the male anthers.*

Or will I have to go with option two, find the candidate for reversal in run #1, collect and store the reversed pollen, and then hit up the selected lady in run #2? Do what is easiest for you (previous bullet)

Is it known to have adverse effects on the outcome reversing a feminized plant, and then hitting another feminized plant with it? (And probably him\her-self as well)? I believe that continued selfing of a line can be detrimental due to a loss of genetic material over time. Crossing Fems adds genetic material so you should experience a bit of hybrid vigor.

Yeah, quite a bit of questions in one go there

*for male parts that seem to not drop pollen:
-collect the male flowers and dry them thoroughly
-once dried place them in a strainer and shake the funk out'a them over a surface that will be easy to collect the pollen from. You may have to rub the flowers in the strainer a bit to release some pollen.

HTH
:tiphat:

Xs121 · Nov 29, 2018

Hello, Puffster sorry to hijack your thread but looks like im not allowed to start a thread in this forum and your thread seems to be related to my question. Hope you don't mind.

So my question is....

Is it possible for a male and female of the same strain to produce 2 drastically different kind of seeds? Such as in color and appearance for example? Same strain and no hermie involved.

JockBudman · Nov 29, 2018

Xs121 said:
Hello, Puffster sorry to hijack your thread but looks like im not allowed to start a thread in this forum and your thread seems to be related to my question. Hope you don't mind.

So my question is....

Is it possible for a male and female of the same strain to produce 2 drastically different kind of seeds? Such as in color and appearance for example? Same strain and no hermie involved.

Short answer is yes.

Longer answer is that it depends.

If you crossed 2 stable inbred lines together you'd get an F1 cross that would, following Mendel's law, produce 25% phenos leaning to line A, 25% leaning to line B and 50% a mix of the two.

Then, if you took a male and female from that generation and crossed those, you'd get an f2 generation which would throw up way more variety as latent traits buried in the original plants would come to the fore depending on genetic dominance. What traits are expressed would depend on gene pairings. Now I'm no expert but I'll give a go of explaining what I mean, using the purple trait as an example (because purpling is known to be a recessive trait) and also because I'm working on my own purple line at the moment.

I currently have a cut of a very purple plant - produces pure purple buds without any need for temp drops - that I want to preserve in seed form. I plan to cross it with African Buzz from seedsman and old timers haze from Ace seeds.
Both my choices for the male line are known to throw purple phenos, however purple is a recessive trait that will only appear when both parts of the gene pairing that dictate bud colour say Purple. If one part says, no, Green, the plant will come out green.
What this means is that in order to find my purple male, I may need to f2 one or both lines to cause it to come out, as a plant can be totally green, yet hide the purple code deep in her heart. An f2 line would allow me to take a green AB male and a green AB female and hopefully produce at least one purple plant. I may then need to cross that purple one again with a sibling to get the male or if the purpling isn't enough to my liking. In amongst that f2 selection would be everything that line can produce - purple plants, green plants, short plants, tall plants etc etc so in that respect, a cross of two plants from the same strain would indeed show a wide selection of different plants.
What it would not do, is give something that wasn't in the parental lines, ie if neither the mother or father has a purple trigger somewhere in them, no purple plants for me. But broadly speaking the widest variation is found in an f2 line - which is why so many plants that are so different share common ancestors - people often select their keepers from f2 lines and what I select from a tent of f2s could be radically different from what you select.

That's my rough take on it anyway but I'm no expert and I'm sure someone far more knowledgeable will be along to correct me if and where I'm wrong. Hope it helps though

Ganja gu brah :joint:

Guy Brush · Nov 29, 2018

SOG and seeds could be a problem depending on the strains used because of variation in height and width and flowering times.

Xs121 · Nov 30, 2018

JockBudman said:
Short answer is yes.

Longer answer is that it depends.

If you crossed 2 stable inbred lines together you'd get an F1 cross that would, following Mendel's law, produce 25% phenos leaning to line A, 25% leaning to line B and 50% a mix of the two.

Then, if you took a male and female from that generation and crossed those, you'd get an f2 generation which would throw up way more variety as latent traits buried in the original plants would come to the fore depending on genetic dominance. What traits are expressed would depend on gene pairings. Now I'm no expert but I'll give a go of explaining what I mean, using the purple trait as an example (because purpling is known to be a recessive trait) and also because I'm working on my own purple line at the moment.

I currently have a cut of a very purple plant - produces pure purple buds without any need for temp drops - that I want to preserve in seed form. I plan to cross it with African Buzz from seedsman and old timers haze from Ace seeds.
Both my choices for the male line are known to throw purple phenos, however purple is a recessive trait that will only appear when both parts of the gene pairing that dictate bud colour say Purple. If one part says, no, Green, the plant will come out green.
What this means is that in order to find my purple male, I may need to f2 one or both lines to cause it to come out, as a plant can be totally green, yet hide the purple code deep in her heart. An f2 line would allow me to take a green AB male and a green AB female and hopefully produce at least one purple plant. I may then need to cross that purple one again with a sibling to get the male or if the purpling isn't enough to my liking. In amongst that f2 selection would be everything that line can produce - purple plants, green plants, short plants, tall plants etc etc so in that respect, a cross of two plants from the same strain would indeed show a wide selection of different plants.
What it would not do, is give something that wasn't in the parental lines, ie if neither the mother or father has a purple trigger somewhere in them, no purple plants for me. But broadly speaking the widest variation is found in an f2 line - which is why so many plants that are so different share common ancestors - people often select their keepers from f2 lines and what I select from a tent of f2s could be radically different from what you select.

That's my rough take on it anyway but I'm no expert and I'm sure someone far more knowledgeable will be along to correct me if and where I'm wrong. Hope it helps though

Ganja gu brah

Thanks for explaining the law of inheritance but what I'm asking is...if it is possible for the mama plant to bear 2 different type of actual physical seeds at the same time and on the same branch even if the pollen donor is of the same strain?

JockBudman · Nov 30, 2018

Xs121 said:
Thanks for explaining the law of inheritance but what I'm asking is...if it is possible for the mama plant to bear 2 different type of actual physical seeds at the same time and on the same branch even if the pollen donor is of the same strain?

You mean like getting a skunk X skunk to produce something like a haze? No.
Not sure what you mean by 2 different types of actual physical seeds - as I said, you can't pull something out of a cross that isn't in either parent plant.

I guess if you were running an unstable polyhybrid and crossed it with the same unstable polyhybrid you'd get a very wide f2 generation but it's still going to be STRAIN X STRAIN and will show a mix of the parents but nothing more.

Sorry if I misunderstood your question, still not sure I get what you mean to be honest. Any chance you could give us an analogy or example of what you want to do?

Xs121 · Nov 30, 2018

JockBudman said:
You mean like getting a skunk X skunk to produce something like a haze? No.
Not sure what you mean by 2 different types of actual physical seeds - as I said, you can't pull something out of a cross that isn't in either parent plant.

I guess if you were running an unstable polyhybrid and crossed it with the same unstable polyhybrid you'd get a very wide f2 generation but it's still going to be STRAIN X STRAIN and will show a mix of the parents but nothing more.

Sorry if I misunderstood your question, still not sure I get what you mean to be honest. Any chance you could give us an analogy or example of what you want to do?

Okay I pollinated 2 branches of a female skunk #1 with pollen from male skunk #1

1st branch, gave me 2 type (seemingly) of seeds almost split evenly 50/50

https://photos.app.goo.gl/DnFj2LouvZnMxawGA

https://photos.app.goo.gl/uRZjRUTTo6t8PnvV8

both are on the same branch

2nd branch, same scenario, same split

https://photos.app.goo.gl/NSH35NAb1tWsnAWP9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/TD53wLzCVYgSADVS6

again both group of seeds came off from the same branch.

No hermie, no other different strain pollen involved. All my unpollinated branches are fine and seedless.

So just wondering if anybody have any experience with this.

(looks like Google wont load the pics within the post so I just included the links to the pics)

MJPassion · Dec 1, 2018

If you pollinated the branches a couple times a couple weeks apart you could see physical differences in the seed.

It's a result of timing and NOT genetics.
All of the seed should produce similar plants.

Xs121 · Dec 1, 2018

MJPassion said:
If you pollinated the branches a couple times a couple weeks apart you could see physical differences in the seed.

It's a result of timing and NOT genetics.
All of the seed should produce similar plants.

I did pollinate a couple times, on the 2nd and 3rd week of flowering to insure I have enough seeds and to pollinate the new growth of pistils.

It does make sense in a way.

What doesnt make sense though the huge difference between seed group.

I have another female skunk pollinated by the same male skunk and also pollinated on the 2nd and 3rd week of flowering....all the seeds are black and uniform.

Guy Brush · Dec 1, 2018

I think MJP is right. The darker ones are a bit more mature.

Xs121 · Dec 1, 2018

Guy Brush said:
I think MJP is right. The darker ones are a bit more mature.

I honestly doubt that.

I pulled out both color from young calyxes and also from very mature calyxes (calyx browning)

and like I posted, I have another skunk female and all her seeds are black/dark brown from young calyx to very mature calxy. Pretty much uniform as it can be expected.

Amynamous · Dec 1, 2018

Photos diid not show up for me.

Mengsk · Dec 1, 2018

I thought you were onto something until MJP mentioned the timing. If some seeds are a week older that could be an explanation. Try growing them and see what happens.

Xs121 · Dec 2, 2018

Mengsk said:
I thought you were onto something until MJP mentioned the timing. If some seeds are a week older that could be an explanation. Try growing them and see what happens.

If that's true then why is my other female pollinated the same way on the 2nd and 3rd week of flowering, all her seeds are the same or uniform, all black or dark brown.

These seeds are pale tan (looks like white) with dark spots (reminds me of quail eggs) and nowhere close to the original skunk seeds that I started with.

I intend to grow them because I'm curious too if there's any semblance of skunk #1 in it.

I was just curious if anybody have encountered similar situation and if any good/bad info can be shared.

Xs121 · Dec 2, 2018

I think I found the answer to this situation.

This could be a case of Seed Heteromorphism

I've been researching this phenomenon online and after countless of published researches and published studies, one term leading to another, yet to another until I found seed heteromorphism.

Lengthy but good reading
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2018.01412/full

What remains to be seen then if these pale tan seeds would produce better plant or not. I know what is going to be my next project. lol

Mengsk · Dec 2, 2018

That is a good question. Whether they are different seeds e.g. to open earlier and later in the spring with the same DNA, or if they are two distinct seed types genetically. I did not catch whether that article mentions this. The simplest test would be to separate or label them before growing. It would seem to me if this produced two plant types it may have been described elsewhere previously. In other words the safer guess/bet is that these seeds are the same, you aren't going to predict final product from color. Let us know how it goes.

Xs121 · Dec 2, 2018

Thanks man and I will

Guy Brush · Dec 2, 2018

Could still be a case of hermaphroditism. An undetected nanner could easily dust the whole branch. So you probably made some S1s or an unintentional fem cross with a neighbour plant. There are not many other explanations available I guess.

Lot of questions about making my own beans, with good reason..

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