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Old 08-11-2017, 06:38 AM #1
Lost In Time
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Short/Quick Soak Tea vs. Fermented Plant Extracts?

Having spent the past week or better reading through most of the "Fermented plant extracts" by Sophisto
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread....mented+extract

and other threads on the subject, I wanted to ask the community or those who use FPE's if quick soaking material in water as a tea (less then a week usually pending material and wanted outcome?) some questions to hopefully get a better idea of what to use in what situation.
Like given how jaykush has stated lavender can be used as a miticide for spidermites. But also benefits the plants health.

On the note of FPE's, instead of using sugar and material, could I instead just soak plant material for X amount of time and accomplish the same end goal, maybe just take a bit longer without sugar or lab?

An if the above works, could I also do the same with fruit/veggies vs. leafy material?


I've got quite a few beneficial plants at my disposal to use, so I figured I'd see what is useful for soaking vs. fermenting as I'm more interested in the secondary actions they can have from a soak vs. breaking down (fermenting)

Like say, could the few rosemary plants around me growing be used to make a pesticide spray/deterrent through soaking? I know more then likely so, but most posts don't state specifics like ratios or amounts, and I'd rather not burn or kill my plant by playing with ratio's without a baseline to start first.


Lastly has anyone used either of these and know in what quantities of material to water to use in quick soaking/infusion for either pest properties or nutrient/mineral properties?

Dandelions
Yarrow
Mint
Rosemary
Lavender
Pineapple Sage
Cinnamon Basil
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Old 08-11-2017, 04:08 PM #2
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Don't see why not. I would be a little concerned with it being anaerobic without fermentation. Just a little. Think of a bad tea though you wouldn't be adding a food source.
With that, as hard as I've tried, I've never had a bad tea.

I do quick soaks when I'm concerned about chlorine. Fermentations have been limited to making alcohol.

Water alone won't break all the chemical bonds. Excepting for any natural fermentation, you wouldn't have the same product. Fermentation will free the oils and break them down. An emulsifier would perhaps help in that sense. Soap nut, yucca, I think quinoa has a high saponin content, or maybe a little organic dish soap.

Don't know, but I can see nothing but good coming from the experiment. How much good? Can't say. That would depend on how much effort it takes. I used to do it with every watering, due to chlorinated water. Sometimes a short soak, sometimes for several days. Can't testify. Can't confirm. It wasn't a hassle and only took a little preplanning.
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:35 AM #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h.h. View Post
Don't see why not. I would be a little concerned with it being anaerobic without fermentation. Just a little. Think of a bad tea though you wouldn't be adding a food source.
With that, as hard as I've tried, I've never had a bad tea.

I do quick soaks when I'm concerned about chlorine. Fermentations have been limited to making alcohol.

Water alone won't break all the chemical bonds. Excepting for any natural fermentation, you wouldn't have the same product. Fermentation will free the oils and break them down. An emulsifier would perhaps help in that sense. Soap nut, yucca, I think quinoa has a high saponin content, or maybe a little organic dish soap.

Don't know, but I can see nothing but good coming from the experiment. How much good? Can't say. That would depend on how much effort it takes. I used to do it with every watering, due to chlorinated water. Sometimes a short soak, sometimes for several days. Can't testify. Can't confirm. It wasn't a hassle and only took a little preplanning.
Hey thanks for replying, and appreciate the insight!
Hmm. Could letting the material sit in water for say weeks, maybe month or two at least do the same thing as what we're trying to achieve with sugar and material? As in a shelf stable "soup" per say, that would be full of nutrients and whatever else that can be diluted for use?

On the same track, as with kelp meal in this example. Couldn't up to a 2-3 day quick water soak of material extract useful properties?

Another question, would be if anyone has any other recipes/ratios of material to use for quick soaks as a spray for mites... They're a pain and I'd rather not mess with neem oil at all or any other products. Especially when we can all make em at home given the proper ratios.

Rosemary, Lavender, Mint, Basil, and others all contain compounds and terpenes that kill/deter pests, even mites. But its the ratio's that I wish we had a table for or baseline to start with. This way we're not having to experiment and jump to conclusions burning a plant(s) because we didn't dilute enough.

I'm fairly certain a bucket half full of any of those listed soaked in a bit of water over 1-2 days would kill the mites... But also my plants in the process. This is why I come to ask the community, if we could possibly come up with idea's and some real world info going as to know where to start and work from.

I know right now, Jay's recipe works, but also be careful as if not properly diluted can burn plants easy. - things like this even are perfect. They give a place of starting, to get the ball rolling.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:16 AM #4
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Try googling a guy called jadam there's some PDF of his books,I believe he does what ur interested in.
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Old 08-13-2017, 04:27 AM #5
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Try googling a guy called jadam there's some PDF of his books,I believe he does what ur interested in.
Yes your referring to Dr./Master Cho's Korean Natural Farming. I've indeed read into his work along side Masanobu Fukuoka's and others like Bill Mollison, Ruth Stout, Teaming with series etc. But still ponder if it could get even simpler sometimes...

As back to the tea debate I'm curious if a decent amount of what our soil needs regardless of in ground or pots even, could be as simple as making tea for the short term to give a boost if need be or in the longer run use plants to feed plants with the likes of "DIY meals" using only whats around us? Or even a type of FPE with only water instead of sugar/mollasses? Sounds a bit odd, I understand the LAB helps the smell and speeds up the process along with sugar for a food source. But the more I think about it, couldn't we theoretically close the loop in our gardens with just plants around us through recycling in this sort of way?

As in very little need for outside inputs of any kind once established initially if any at all after... Even say kelp or lime, oyster, gypsum, rockdust etc. for our minerals and calcium for ph control among other things. Could "dynamic accumulators" for example, given enough bulk material in the area give back what is lost? With exception of the fruit - in our case, the buds also contain nutrients/minerals etc. that will be taken away over time. But that's where the whole humanure and urine idea come in correct? Essentially to close the loop effectively giving back what we taken in??

I know JADAM accomplishes most if not all of what I'm asking, but I'm more or less asking this. Is it possible to go even easier as to use just plants and water? Maybe add an airline for aeration to keep things aerobic?

If true even, I don't believe I or most would go that far (humanure), but the plant feeding plants idea to help be self sufficient isn't just a high thought now is it??
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:22 AM #6
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I don't remember exactly what I read from jadam but what I did read was about just soaking in water and leaving it until it bubbled and fermented all by itself.so try finding that,I'm not talking cho,or u could try googling what French wine vineyards have been doing for a long time with ferments.
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Old 08-13-2017, 10:52 PM #7
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Quote:
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I don't remember exactly what I read from jadam but what I did read was about just soaking in water and leaving it until it bubbled and fermented all by itself.so try finding that,I'm not talking cho,or u could try googling what French wine vineyards have been doing for a long time with ferments.
Yes, unless we're talking about two completely different fellas, then it was Cho your referring to. (PDF and Amazon link to the book below) An I know about fermented extracts using his recipes, but they, like I said, use sugar. An as far as I know, not a single recipe there was just material and water sitting. Are you sure it was JADAM you seen it mention that?

https://ilcasia.files.wordpress.com/...ming-sarra.pdf

https://www.amazon.com/JADAM-Organic.../dp/B01BZHG1RM

An yes I know about the vineyard idea, where they ferment a lot of things in just water, but happen to have a hard time finding anything even semi reliable stating any recipes when it comes to that. The site Clackamas Coot has posted a few times in the past referring to a site on french gardening comes up with the site not being up anymore...

An that's kind of where I'm left looking for things of that nature, is the forums in topics here an there. But most just refer to FPE with sugar and a few quick soak tea's but most of us know those already. I was hoping we could find more lesser known plants that could be maybe substituted or even better on they're own per say for our locale/location using only native ones.

I mean ya, a simple google search comes up with all the usual ones, nettles, dandelion, comfrey, sometimes yarrow. Even just random garden weeds thrown in a bucket, but nothing else ever mentions soaking say apple leaves, maple leaves, roses, etc. <- used these as examples as I have an apple tree, maple tree, roses, etc. but I don't see any mention of a water soak/tea using only "water" or even fermenting it for weeks. I understand that LAB and IMO can help in that process and he mentions these examples in his book, but what about making it simpler?

Jaykush mentioned doing something similar in the FPE thread stating he just used water, but then again I want to know if we're producing a different end product vs. Cho's FPE recipes with sugar. (Even if it isn't say as strong of an extract with just water, but hey they're both free for foraging)

Can water only be used instead? An can this concoction be shelf stable for any length of time past it's initial straining/being finished? These are my two main questions on the tea infusion or fermentation. I realize a tea isn't probably going to be shelf stable for long, so would a water only ferment at least be?

To me it's all about literally only using everything on the site and no outside inputs in a perfect setting or as close as we can get. But obviously we don't have rice, bamboo, or sugar growing wild or as a staple in the US at least where I live. So for that scenario, those would be out. KNF is just another way to garden organically. Just as Permaculture, Forest Gardening, etc. To have a method (sorry for lack of a better term) or plan of action that works in our own setting is ideal and to achieve that, I'd like to never have to buy an amendment/food source again. Even including molasses or sugar itself in the long run. If my questions/idea are realistic of course
I do appreciate the discussion thanks again.
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Old 08-14-2017, 04:23 PM #8
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Generally, because I'm no expert. Open to corrections.

Sugar isn't really a food source. Sugar conversion is a means of respiration for yeast when it becomes anaerobic. Yeast also needs protein.

Alcohol fermentation: C6H12O6 → 2 C2H5OH + 2 CO2
.............................. ...... Sucrose Alcohol Carbon dioxide

Without sugar, only aerobic yeast will survive, if there is a source of food.

Everything has a little natural sugar. especially your apples. Rose hips would be good. Fermentation limited by sugar content.

Once alcohol content starts rising, the yeast will start to die off.

Lactobacillus fermentation :
I've used barley instead of rice..There's a lot of sources. It's pretty common.
Ants carry it around. It's been theorized that dirt from ant hills was first used to culture yogurt.
I believe that the purpose of the milk is to isolate it, but I really don't want to say. (Refer to original statement.) It's there from your rice (or whatever) soak, it just won't have a chance to multiply on it's own.
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Old 08-16-2017, 07:28 AM #9
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Given the slight sugar everything may contain even if only slightly, could it then ferment worth any on it's own? e.g. Comfrey leaves left in water? Or at the least is there any way to store tea's made with water for any length of time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by h.h. View Post
Generally, because I'm no expert. Open to corrections.

Sugar isn't really a food source. Sugar conversion is a means of respiration for yeast when it becomes anaerobic. Yeast also needs protein.

Alcohol fermentation: C6H12O6 → 2 C2H5OH + 2 CO2
.............................. ...... Sucrose Alcohol Carbon dioxide

Without sugar, only aerobic yeast will survive, if there is a source of food.

Everything has a little natural sugar. especially your apples. Rose hips would be good. Fermentation limited by sugar content.

Once alcohol content starts rising, the yeast will start to die off.

Lactobacillus fermentation :
I've used barley instead of rice..There's a lot of sources. It's pretty common.
Ants carry it around. It's been theorized that dirt from ant hills was first used to culture yogurt.
I believe that the purpose of the milk is to isolate it, but I really don't want to say. (Refer to original statement.) It's there from your rice (or whatever) soak, it just won't have a chance to multiply on it's own.
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Old 09-26-2017, 12:47 AM #10
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I do the quick soak teas with almost all those herbs. (Nettle, Comfrey, Yarrow, Chamomile, Mint, Lavender.) If I'm making a pesticide with Mint or Lavender I usually soak for 24-36 hours. I strain the herbs, add some aloe, pro tekt, full power, and essential oils. Works amazing. I also use the other herbs for root drench and mulch. I just let the teas sit for 3-5 days usually strain and water. I find that I don't have to worry about burning my plants with the quick soaks. I've burnt my plants crazy bad with FPE'S before.
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