What do you consider an "early male"?

HarvestMoon303 · Jan 8, 2017

I've seen a few posts that talk about NOT using an early-showing male for breeding. However, when I search the forum, I'm not finding much information. What is wrong with a male that shows sex early, and what is considered early? I have a pack that seems to have ended up 5F and 1M. The male was growing balls by about week 6 of veg (24/0), and he was moved to his own space. I have another plant (another strain) that's also showing at about week 7 of veg (24/0).

Would you consider these "early"? Most of the females have shown sex, but I bet that I might find another male after a week or two of 12/12. We shall see. Thanks!

BAKED_BEANZ · Jan 8, 2017

edit , think i mis interpreted the question , and the significance of the 24 hr light .

seeded · Jan 8, 2017

early maturing males are as bad as early maturing females

dank.frank · Jan 8, 2017

An early male is one that will drop pollen under 24 hour light instead of requiring to be triggered by 12/12. If it will drop pollen under 24 hour light, it is no different than a female that will start auto flowering.

I like plants that I can keep in veg and easily take cuts from to flower. If my mother is always trying to flower, her hormones are off. This makes them hard to root because they are always trying to switch between cycles rather than focusing on making roots.

Males will show pre-sex just like a female. One or two balls forming is not such a big deal. The entire plant begins forming balls at every internode and vertical growth stops in favor of producing flowers, this is a problem.

Make sure you aren't causing the plant to do this as a result of stress factors. To much heat. Over/under watering. Root bound. Heavy prunning, etc. At the same time, this does indicate sensitivities that can make the plant difficult to manage and keep around.

Just my opinion.

dank.Frank

FireIn.TheSky · Jan 8, 2017

That sounds like an auto flower to me.

I've seen swt 3 males do that, but that's about it.

IMO an early males when you grow say 5 males, the first and second to pop off be considered the early ones with number 5 starting later and going for a longer duration producing the most pollen.

If you've grown a number of males you will realize some pop off after like 2 weeks 12/12, when some don't start until like 4 wks and will produce pollen steadily from wk 4 to 6 or 8

An recent ssh male I used flowered producing pollen easily til wk 7. Seemed to go on and on

shishkaboy · Jan 8, 2017

Iirc, the logic was that if left alone in the wild cannibus will revert to hemp. Imo, the theory is based on the fact that earlier males would produce more viable seeds in the wild and from that the the conclusion is made that the hemp genes are in those males.

dank.frank · Jan 8, 2017

A quick look into information provided by the cannabis genome project would show that to be completely incorrect though.

http://www.leafscience.com/2014/02/17/cannabis-genome-got-mapped-qa-dr-jonathan-page/

The other major finding, which wasn’t new but was reinforced by our genomic analysis, is what really differentiates the cannabinoids found in marijuana versus hemp is a single enzyme at the last step of the cannabinoid pathway. In marijuana it’s the THCA synthase enzyme, and it’s the CBDA synthase enzyme in hemp.

Up to that point, the metabolic pathway is the same. But then there’s a genetically encoded switch, in which the allele that dominates differs in marijuana versus hemp. Sometimes you get both. For example, if you cross a THCA type plant and a CBDA type plant, the offspring will have each allele.

Others had described that at the genetic level, but they hadn’t really done it at the genomic level. So we proved that it was the split in the pathway at the last enzyme step that was responsible for this important chemical difference.

dank.Frank

MJPassion · Jan 11, 2017

dank.frank said:
An early male is one that will drop pollen under 24 hour light instead of requiring to be triggered by 12/12. If it will drop pollen under 24 hour light, it is no different than a female that will start auto flowering.

I like plants that I can keep in veg and easily take cuts from to flower. If my mother is always trying to flower, her hormones are off. This makes them hard to root because they are always trying to switch between cycles rather than focusing on making roots.

Males will show pre-sex just like a female. One or two balls forming is not such a big deal. The entire plant begins forming balls at every internode and vertical growth stops in favor of producing flowers, this is a problem.

Make sure you aren't causing the plant to do this as a result of stress factors. To much heat. Over/under watering. Root bound. Heavy prunning, etc. At the same time, this does indicate sensitivities that can make the plant difficult to manage and keep around.

Just my opinion.

dank.Frank

DF,
I agree w everything you've posted here but now I have a question for you.
Considering that most cannabis breeding is taking place indoors, would you consider a male that flowers under 14-16 hours of light as an early male when he's posted up outdoors under the big HID in the sky?

I ask because I've noticed that nearly every variety I've grown over the last decade (outdoors about 38N) has triggered flowering around 14hrs day & 10hrs night.

I consider males that trigger to flower cycle at less than 10 hours of darkness as early. Only because this is a more natural light cycle.

Honestly, if flowers didn't trigger before 12/12 outdoors (sept 21) there would be a lot of unhappy growers about the planet. Of course, we're not talking about equatorial varieties here either.

Thule · Jan 11, 2017

MJPassion said:
Considering that most cannabis breeding is taking place indoors, would you consider a male that flowers under 14-16 hours of light as an early male when he's posted up outdoors under the big HID in the sky?
QUOTE]

I wouldn't. in my growing conditions that would be considered a late male. The early ones will flower under 18-22 hours of light (late june, early july), any later than that would be discarded when breeding for (truly) early flowering.

who dat is · Jan 11, 2017

Since hearing mention of the earliest showing males being more inclined to have less potency I have since started numbering plants in the order that they show sex along with the sex of the plant on the label so I can use that info when settling on a male. Plant number system for me for instance would be the 7th plant to show sex, a confirmed male of Dank Zappa = DZ7M or DZ#7 (M)

shishkaboy · Jan 11, 2017

dank.frank said:
A quick look into information provided by the cannabis genome project would show that to be completely incorrect though.

http://www.leafscience.com/2014/02/17/cannabis-genome-got-mapped-qa-dr-jonathan-page/

dank.Frank

So the question is, how does one select for the thc side of things? or is it just random?

Is there any way of breeding out the ones with the genetically predetermined switch in the wrong position?

MJPassion · Jan 11, 2017

who dat is said:
Since hearing mention of the earliest showing males being more inclined to have less potency I have since started numbering plants in the order that they show sex along with the sex of the plant on the label so I can use that info when settling on a male. Plant number system for me for instance would be the 7th plant to show sex, a confirmed male of Dank Zappa = DZ7M or DZ#7 (M)

Are you able to determine sex from the primordia?
I'm about 75% correct when looking at that stage so I wait until I can actually distinguish balls or pubes to actually label my plants with their expression.
Reason I ask is because I've seen plants shoot out the primordia then show sex almost immediately & then some take their sweet time to fully develop.

who dat is · Jan 11, 2017

MJPassion said:
Are you able to determine sex from the primordia?
I'm about 75% correct when looking at that stage so I wait until I can actually distinguish balls or pubes to actually label my plants with their expression.
Reason I ask is because I've seen plants shoot out the primordia then show sex almost immediately & then some take their sweet time to fully develop.

I don't label them until I know exactly what sex they are. If I needed to label them enough to keep them separate from others I would only put what strain it is on there and number accordingly in order of who shows sex first. Just my personal way of organizing and labeling things, everybody has their own little method.

BAKED_BEANZ · Jan 11, 2017

personally , i would have thought the order they show sex in , would be a factor on how much indica compared to sativa they have in the make up , if your using hybrids .

the earlier showing being the more indica dominate , plants of the group ? makes sense anyways dont know if makes facts , though

i,m not even sure its relevant anymore about the first males to show have low thc , i,m sure hemp hasn't been in any genetic make for how long , everyone is breeding high thc plants .

i got no facts i,m not a book worm , its just my opinion

Thule · Jan 11, 2017

BAKED_BEANZ said:
personally , i would have thought the order they show sex in , would be a factor on how much indica compared to sativa they have in the make up , if your using hybrids .

the earlier showing being the more indica dominate , plants of the group ? makes sense anyways dont know if makes facts , though

i,m not even sure its relevant anymore about the first males to show have low thc , i,m sure hemp hasn't been in any genetic make for how long , everyone is breeding high thc plants .

i got no facts i,m not a book worm , its just my opinion

According to phylos galaxy many landraces (kushes included) do contain a degree of hemp related ancestry. It has been a part of the make up all along

who dat is · Jan 11, 2017

Thule said:
According to phylos galaxy many landraces (kushes included) do contain a degree of hemp related ancestry. It has been a part of the make up all along

I would take that info on there with a grain of salt too. I was at the Cannagrow Expo and was talking to the guy at the booth and he was trying to show me how it worked and the genetic mapping and all that. Definitely some work needing to be done still IMHO.

Thule · Jan 11, 2017

who dat is said:
I would take that info on there with a grain of salt too. I was at the Cannagrow Expo and was talking to the guy at the booth and he was trying to show me how it worked and the genetic mapping and all that. Definitely some work needing to be done still IMHO.

Yup, they keep adjusting things by the looks of it. For the most part the results look quite credible, to me at least.

BAKED_BEANZ · Jan 12, 2017

Thule said:
According to phylos galaxy many landraces (kushes included) do contain a degree of hemp related ancestry. It has been a part of the make up all along

this proves the first male has less potency and to discarded , how ? sorry not trying to offend you , you grabbed a bite and left the rest .

i,m referring to proving the first male to show should be discarded . feels kinda mythical to me , in this day age . ( i was referring to who dat is comment )

Picarus · Jan 12, 2017

i agree with you Baked, all old folklore and mysticism.
Lab tests take the guess work and should be utilized by anyone serious about breeding, even if only for yourself. Some of these old rules of thumb really need to be debunked. Potency and trichomes color for example. Complete bs.
I also agree with Frank that you don't necessarily want to keep a male around that pre flowers in veg setting. For long term projects they should be discarded so you don't carry pollen with you in and out of the veg room. As well as discontinuing the trait in future progeny. Has nothing to do with potency though.

Dropped Cat · Jan 12, 2017

I had three males, three different cultivars, and the one I tossed
flowered in veg, 18/6.

Messed up my females timing with taking cuttings and was culled.

The remaining two have no hint of expression in veg and cuttings
in flower show sex around week two.

i also cull females that pre flower heavy in veg too.

I try to read the papers on the subject to guide my process,
and mostly suggest selection away from plants that get all
sexy in veg.

What do you consider an "early male"?

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