Help with my underground OP asap please!

Alright fellars, I have already made*one related post on here called "MountainBudz Gone Underground" and that thread seemed to start going in so many different directions that it became confusing.*

Let's start by saying that I am an experienced grower. I have been growing indoors and out for around 15 years now. I recently moved from my old location and purchased a new home and land, very secluded here in the beautiful mountains of Eastern My.

I have an underground (storm cellar, root cellar, wine cellar, mini basement, storm shelter, fallout shelter) hell... whatever you would like to call it haha on my property. It is pretty good size compared to most storm cellars. It measures 18 feet in length, 8 feet in width and 6 foot and 4 inches tall. The walls and foundation is very well built and*sturdy. It is constructed of cinder blocks and the roof is solid concrete/cement. The*"bunker" Is submerged underground all except the front wall which is partially*exposed. So the back wall (completely underground, sides conpmetely undergound and the top is underground as well. About a third of the entrance in the front is exposed.*

There is one entrance which is a walk in*opening in the front which I will build a frame and install a sturdy door onto it. The problem with that is that the door needs to*be 6ft tall and 32 inches wide, however I cannot for the life of me find a good door*under 80 inches tall. So I am looking at possibly needing to build and construct my own door.*

Then there is a window as well that is a bit over a good tall and a couple feet in length. I will likely seal that off and gill it in. There are 2 small holes in the wall I could use for intake for fresh air in. Just need to figure out how to keep the sunlight from beaming through those holes, I believe I have that*part figured out.*

I also spent $220.00 for 10 gallons of flat white drylok masonry sealer/paint and put*3 thick coatings on all of the walls and ceiling as well to help with the humidty, even*thought I have not seen any wet areas or leaks at all in the entire Weller except for*around the windowless window lol which will be sealed up anyway.

I have a very close friend who owns a*plumbing and electric business and he has agreed to wire it for me.*

My original plan was to grow openly inside*the cellar, meaning to use the entire cellar at one time, running 4 to 6 1000w hps at one time. But however, It is winter and heating*it during lights off will definitely be an issue.

So... that brings me/us to plan B.*

I then decided to split it in half and run a "flip flop" using two 4x8 tents. Then got to thinking... My ceiings are too short for tents unless I remove a few inches off the poles*and rods and do some customizing and also there is space lost as well. Now what I could do since the floor in the cellar is just gravel and dirt, is dig the floor a few inches deeper and the tents would work great.*

Now my reason for a flip flop is so that when lights are off in one and running in the other, is that I can vent the hot air from the "lights on" tent to the "lights off" tent and that way heating will not be an issue and it*will also cut back on electricity usage as well by not having to add a heating source to the room, It will basically heat itself. Now*come next summer, this may be a whole new issue and may need to be*reconstructed/designed but I will worry about that when the time comes...

Then option 3 hit me... Isn't it possible that*I could just save money and have more room as well by trashing the tent idea and using*panda film, maybe doubling it up to split the two rooms and then it can be easier*rearranged as well of needed??? Now I have never used panda film so I am not sure*about how "light proof" this stuff is.*

Now at the moment I want to put this out there.... I am VERY open to ideas and I need those ideas flowing from your guys brains. There are some intelligent people on this*forum and I know there are some folks out there that can help me along with all of this wether it be DIY architecturl advice, electrical advice, constructive ideas, just*whatever is the most simplest and easiest low budget ideas you have in mind. Please*help me with this. I need to get this operation built as soon as possible, like functioning/functionable/operational within a week max. I have been so busy lately with work I have not been able to do anything at all with it but now I am free daily for a while.*

So far all I have done is drylok the cellar,*purchased the main wiring and a 100 amp breaker to install in there as well. Going to*find and be using me a good dehumidifier as well. So my list so far equipment wise is*this...

4 1000 watt bulbs and ballasts
4 air cooled hoods
2 phresh filters
110 feet of wire
100 amp breaker box

I still need to get me a dehumidifier, an inline fan once I figure out how much cfm I need*and how many fans I will need, and basic construction of the cellar.*

Folks, I am lost... Help me go somewhere*with this. I promise once constructed and operational, I will get a beautiful informative thread started immediately provide plenty of bud porn and detailed grow logs... also you will know as you read through them, that*thanks to you, the grow journal and grow op itself would not be existent if it were not for you brilliant minds and will to help. Thanks*guys.*

I know this is an incredibly long post but I would appreciate so much if someone would take the time to read this and help me out please.

I was super anti-tent for years.. but they have just gotten so cheap that it costs about as much as framing out panda rooms would, if not slightly less. Plus they are more lightproof, and durable.

I buy the cheap ones and exhaust my gas dryer into them for a few hours to cure the plastic til I feel I've gotten the toxic smell out.

Can't help you with much more than that..

tents are not really ideal, they are too low and generally waste space, if you use the whole space you can hardly work on your plants, on top of that it has too little vertical space for a good climate to be maintained easily.

gaiusmarius said:

tents are not really ideal, they are too low and generally waste space, if you use the whole space you can hardly work on your plants, on top of that it has too little vertical space for a good climate to be maintained easily.

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Well as far as tents being too low, I will agree but I have grown in tents for 6 going on 7 years now with no height issues ever, even growing out multiple pure landrace sativas and the stretchiest of thais.

Most tents, If not all are a little taller than my area anyway. Most tents are 6 feet and 7 inches in height. My ceilings are 6 feet and 3 inches in height.

As long as you are an experienced grower and have some experience on your hands, training is not an issue nor is height. In my past tent grows I usually have no floor space whatsoever and it always works out just fine. I usually move a plant at a time to work my way to the back and then re situate. Is it a bitch? Indeed it is.. But man the end product is always worth it.

Now after my first large harvest out of the OP, I do plan on digging out the floor about a half foot deeper or maybe even a foot and then adding 3 inches or so of concrete. But for now I am leaving the floor as is. It is dirt and gravel, mostly dirt with not much gravel... I am going to soak the floor real good with a long acting insecticide and then lay plastic over the floor for my very first run. Then the next run I am going to make some better changes and give the room a better environment. But for now I am on a budget and need to get this constructed quickly and saving money and getting it thrown together for a first decent harvest is what I am after for now.

And I just want to say thank you guys for reading and helping me out with this. It is a pleasure to have people step out of the wood works and put there time into helping fellow growers!

Check the temperatures down at your floor level. You can likely incorporate some outdoor-grade rigid polyurethane foam sheeting into your floor plans/concrete. Either that, and/or you can place custom cut panels of the same foam under your plant/pot areas. But my guess is your floor will be a tad cold for the roots' ideal comfort ranges.

Super-insulate the area of the wall that's exposed to the elements. Major heat loss.

Didn't catch the location/state. It says (above) 'My,' and I didn't know if that was supposed to be Wyoming, Montana, or what.

If they're using FLIR in your area, all of what you've described will be visible from the air in the right conditions (lights running hot, etc).

Your intake and exhaust need to be adequate to keep your moisture and heat properly regulated and under control. What diameter are the holes you described and plan to use for this?

Is the door visible on the property if someone simply walks up to your home, or looks around?

There was an electrician in Eagle River area in Alaska years ago. Had a whole bunch of connex units buried, insulated, vented, etc. Large operation. He lit up on FLIR like a Christmas tree, and I'm guessing he was deeper than you are. Just sayin'..

Good luck.

If you can dig out that floor man.. Seriously.. Wow.. Do it.

I have only ever run 1000w'ers high and bare, but personally, I would have ran 600's.. with big ass 8" cooltubes, to try and utilize more of what little vertical space you have. '

I can take a few minutes to make a mockup of what I would have done with that space, but none of those ideas include utilizing a 1000w lamp.. so I don't know how much good they will do you.

I have always ran 1000 watt HPS in my 4x4 tents with a yield of a pound and a half per tent and absolutely no plant burning or bleaching, not even the buds that are a few inches away from the bottom of the glass. As long as you have good fast air movement on those lights you are good Bobby.

Moose, I am located in Kentucky and not really worried about FLIR picking up on my grow. My grow was above ground for 6 years and had the same wattage running and had not had a problem yet. I am just relocating underground.

I'm not worried about anyone walking up on it, I dont have a neighbor for over 3 miles. Very secluded area in the mountains of Eastern Kentucky Appalachia.

I will likely insulate the front wall somewhat more than it is. When the room is clos3d off it maintains a mid average temp all year long just like a cave would.

I was planning on leaving a foot or two open in the room for the main lung. This is where air will be exhausted.

Damn bud, wish I had any info for you, but have nothing of value to contribute -.- however this style has intrigued me for years so thank you for starting the thread as I will follow along. Good luck m8

Seems like too nice of a space to put tents in it.Just build a dividing wall or 2 and your good to go. Would make life a lot easier to work the plants and you could get more plants in there as well.
If most of the cellar is under ground and you insulate the outside wall, it probably would not take much to heat it and keep the temp constant.

Peace GG

Ive only has the misfortune of having to grow in a tent one time for a couple months vegging some plants, other than that ive been spoiled with 10' ceilings in my grow rooms.

If you have the opportunity to do it right the first time then i would, tents may be an affordable option now but a framed wall, with a real door is going to last for years.

speaking of doors most of them are going to come in 80" setup, you are looking for a wood solid core exterior door and cut it down from the top & the hinge side. Any woodshop can do this for you for basically nothing, or if you have a jointer you can do it yourself.

To start you off in the right direction we need to properly assess our potential grow space and cross a few roads.

100 amp Electrical limitation, with a 6k you are looking at 42amps plus 2x 10 amp circuits for accessories... A heating and cooling 2.5ton mini split will draw roughly 25 amps depending on the model. This is good and leaves you some wiggle room electrically speaking.

How do you plan to grow the plants? im guessing coming from outdoors you are used to large plants in soil... 6' is not a ton of head space, add in a light and some trays or pots and you are limited to 24-30" plants max.. vertical lighting or sea of green may be a viable option.

Sealed or ducted lights, This may or may not be an option if you are able to run ducts out of the building, but this can be a nice way to cut down on electrical costs. ducted lights can get you closer to the canopy (larger plants) than open fixtures. on the other hand you get some lumen loss from the glass and the ducting is a bitch, plus you will need an extra fan for the ducting itself.

realistically going the flip flop route on 6k is going to cost you more in buildout and headaches trying to light proof both spaces and heat/cool both spaces rather than just running all 6 lights in one room and getting a decent mini split to heat and cool the space.

If it were me id run all 6 lights right down the middle of the room, this will leave you a small walkway to train and maintain plants from both sides, life sucks when you are doing yoga for hours trying to train plants through 4' of canopy. Access is critical, your back will thank you.

as for keeping the roots warm & off the floor you can construct the best cheap 4x8 flood trays out of plywood, 2x4's and EPDM pond liner. place these flood trays on some cinder blocks or bricks and viola you are off the ground & containing your runoff.

spray foam is your friend for sealing cracks and holes, its also light proof once you spray paint it black

A dehumidifier will be critical as well id start with a 70 pint and if thats not cutting it then buy another one.


Hmmm i guess thats all ive got for now, fire back with any questions or if you want any clarification on what im talking about.

Speed of green said:

Ive only has the misfortune of having to grow in a tent one time for a couple months vegging some plants, other than that ive been spoiled with 10' ceilings in my grow rooms.

If you have the opportunity to do it right the first time then i would, tents may be an affordable option now but a framed wall, with a real door is going to last for years.

speaking of doors most of them are going to come in 80" setup, you are looking for a wood solid core exterior door and cut it down from the top & the hinge side. Any woodshop can do this for you for basically nothing, or if you have a jointer you can do it yourself.

To start you off in the right direction we need to properly assess our potential grow space and cross a few roads.

100 amp Electrical limitation, with a 6k you are looking at 42amps plus 2x 10 amp circuits for accessories... A heating and cooling 2.5ton mini split will draw roughly 25 amps depending on the model. This is good and leaves you some wiggle room electrically speaking.

How do you plan to grow the plants? im guessing coming from outdoors you are used to large plants in soil... 6' is not a ton of head space, add in a light and some trays or pots and you are limited to 24-30" plants max.. vertical lighting or sea of green may be a viable option.

Sealed or ducted lights, This may or may not be an option if you are able to run ducts out of the building, but this can be a nice way to cut down on electrical costs. ducted lights can get you closer to the canopy (larger plants) than open fixtures. on the other hand you get some lumen loss from the glass and the ducting is a bitch, plus you will need an extra fan for the ducting itself.

realistically going the flip flop route on 6k is going to cost you more in buildout and headaches trying to light proof both spaces and heat/cool both spaces rather than just running all 6 lights in one room and getting a decent mini split to heat and cool the space.

If it were me id run all 6 lights right down the middle of the room, this will leave you a small walkway to train and maintain plants from both sides, life sucks when you are doing yoga for hours trying to train plants through 4' of canopy. Access is critical, your back will thank you.

as for keeping the roots warm & off the floor you can construct the best cheap 4x8 flood trays out of plywood, 2x4's and EPDM pond liner. place these flood trays on some cinder blocks or bricks and viola you are off the ground & containing your runoff.

spray foam is your friend for sealing cracks and holes, its also light proof once you spray paint it black

A dehumidifier will be critical as well id start with a 70 pint and if thats not cutting it then buy another one.


Hmmm i guess thats all ive got for now, fire back with any questions or if you want any clarification on what im talking about.

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This is great info my man...

I will get back with you more on this later this evening when I get a chance. Got a busy day today but, I did make a rough sketch of an idea on the room lastnight. It may be a good layout or it may be worthless but for what it is worth, I am going to throw it out there for you guys to look over.

Tents really are awful.. Ive bought them in most shapes and sizes and the 3 or 4 footers are the only ones that I will probably ever buy again. Any bigger and you actually have to step into the mf'er to train your plants, which I can't even really do anymore due to a neck injury.

I really miss working with more headspace, but I just got sick and tired of tearing down and setting up bigger build outs everytime family came to visit or I had to schedule a visit from the cable guy or whatever. It does make a lot of sense to go the tent route in illegal climates.. Was always a huge weight on my shoulders knowing it would take me all day to clean up.

Flip flopping does make sense in your situation, but it's going to be a pretty penny to do a permanent build out. In tents.. a lil cheaper and less time consuming. If you don't have the time to postpone your harvest for the build-out and nice little cushion to cover the unexpected.. flip flopping might make more sense in theory than in practice.

If I was trying to put on a show, I'd go the DJM coco trees route and try to fill the whole room, at least once, but I'm just going to butt out at this point. I don't know enough about what I'm saying to keep going in good conscience.

Panda plastic sucks for walls. I grew in a 4x4 home-built tent with it for a few years. I highly recommend panda plastic for a lot of things, walls for a flowering room is not one of them.

Speed of Green is right on the money, build it right the first time and you'll always benefit in the long run. You can always start with building out one flower and one veg room and go from there.

4x8 rigid foam insulation panels can be a quick cheap way to go. Many ways to connect them and don't need as rigid of a frame, if any at all. If i ever bought a tent I would slap some of them on the sides, which makes me wonder why I would even buy a tent, and just build a simple box with the panels instead..

Reflectix is nice to wrap around curves but expensive and needs an air gap for any real R value benefits. A one inch wall frame with reflectix on both sides works good to insulate, and reflect the light. It does easily scratch up and get punctures though, possibly allowing light leaks. I quit using metal tape to seal inside corners of reflectix lined rooms, and now use a thick bead of elastomeric caulking instead, and it looks and works so nice!


Being under ground has a lot of benefits you could take advantage of. Like if you bored long holes through the walls.. out and away into the ground, you could run pipes, long tube coils, etc. Or maybe heat a large res to store heat, and radiate it back into the room when needed. Makes my head swirl with ideas thinking about it..

I notice that they actually make a device for a flip-flop style grow. They are quiet expensive and me being non electrically inclined, I have no idea nor would I attempt to build a DIY device.

Why could one not just not simply run one room on one breaker and the other room on another breaker and just set the timer on room number one to 12am to 12pm and then on a separate line set room number two to 12pm to 12am??? What is the problem doing that way? I personally don't see any hazards or reason it would not work. What is the point in people using a flip flop device?

I have 4 1000 watt lights, 4 air cooled hoods, 4 1000 digi ballasts and two inline fans. Running all of this 6 inch.

MountainBudz said:

I notice that they actually make a device for a flip-flop style grow. They are quiet expensive and me being non electrically inclined, I have no idea nor would I attempt to build a DIY device.

Why could one not just not simply run one room on one breaker and the other room on another breaker and just set the timer on room number one to 12am to 12pm and then on a separate line set room number two to 12pm to 12am??? What is the problem doing that way? I personally don't see any hazards or reason it would not work. What is the point in people using a flip flop device?

I have 4 1000 watt lights, 4 air cooled hoods, 4 1000 digi ballasts and two inline fans. Running all of this 6 inch.

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the flip box allows one ballast to run two lamps.
most flip flop grows have more lights and not having to buy extra ballasts is cheaper than a flip box.

you can totally run your lights on separate breaker and timer. what you want is a two pole contactor. it uses a trigger cord 120v to power an electromagnet and connect a larger circuit. extremely simple to wire. or you could get a 240v timer for each room, only issue is that most of these timers do not have battery backup so if you lose power your lighting schedule will shift.

Could someone possibly draw me out an idea on how they would personally design and vent the room?

Here's a bathtub doodle I made trying to find a good size for your lung room so that it's footprint was equal to either other room, after framing and drywall etc.. should you decide to go through with framing out a flip-flop. I remember that ratio being important..

How you have to cool, warm, humidify, dehumidify depends a lot on your climate, intake/outtake possibilities, legal situation, financial situation.. AC's and dehueys get 'spensive.

I don't really know enough about any of this though.. Just thought Id share my doodle.

Edit*

On second thought, I really don't even know what a flipflop lung room should look like. If I'm remembering correctly, a lung room should be at least as big as your grow space, but I got to thinking that this ratio probably doesn't apply directly to flip flops, on account of the strain the lights off room would also be putting on your lung room.. If I had to guess, I would probably take another 6" from your grow space, but I would try an ascertain this information from someone who isn't a babbling idiot.