bobblehead's organic bedroom of high brix gardening

bobblehead · Sep 15, 2013

Purple turtle said:
lookn forward to learnin some stuff,sounds like stability,and health are the key,'since u in the whole organic thing at the moment ,im sure you've read all the HYPE on GLOMALIN!,and increasing it!,as well as the relationship with myco,i read increased co2 levels from 340ppm to the 600 mark,increased the hyphae length almost 10 fold,thats a whole lot more access to minerals,water,nutes in the soil, also good gardening practices can do the same thing ,'no till' and so on....Glomalin stores 4 times more carbon than humic acid ,and it lasts for something crazy like 42 years in the soil.'gotta google 'glomalin'.

I'll have to look into Glomalin, I haven't read much about it honestly. I'm still very new to organics. Been at it for a whole 3 months now. Thanks for the tip!

sgapetti said:
glad to see you switched to organic, tagged!!

Peace S

Thanks! Happy to see you tag up.

OrganicOzarks said:
Nice seeing some biological growing going on. I do believe the atomizer chops up the microbes. I don't use an atomizer, but it would be easy to check under scope. I have always, and will always use a standard sprayer.

I also foliar feed more than the typical guy. I foliar feed compost tea twice per week through the entire run, except for the last week. The last week I don;t foliar anything.

Do you check the brix to see if the additional sprays are benefitting the plants? Thanks for popping in!

silver hawaiian said:
Could you share some of your foliar recipes w us?

Edit: That was intended for bobble, but OrganicOzarks, I'd love to hear some of your recipes as well.

I don't really have much of a recipe... One day I do the CaCl2 w/ triacontanol, the next I give them tea with 2 cups alfalfa, 2 cups EWC, root and foliar packs. That gets diluted down to like .6EC and I add 1mL KSil 1mL yucca extract, 2tbsp pure protein dry, ful-humix can't remember the application rate, per gallon, and now I have quillaja and I need to get kelp to add to that as well.

OrganicOzarks · Sep 15, 2013

I do have a brix Meter? I can't remember what the thing is called, but I have yet to use it. Honestly I was going to start measuring brix, and plant sap PH, but I don't think that it would help me to much. As more cannabis based science comes out I may apply those techniques, but not yet.

I do know that I have tested using tea once per week, twice per week, and from 3 weeks to the end up to 1 week to the end, and the best results were using tea twice per week foliar and soil drenched up to the last week of harvest. How about that run on sentence for you?

The finished product had a much more pronounced odor, crystal production was higher than I had ever had on the same cuts, and the potency was noticeably higher. I "turned" one so-so cut into a head ringer.

It took my light weight ass by surprise one day. Felt like I had been smacked up side the head by a sledge hammer. So I waited 30 minutes, and smoked some more.

Mister_D · Sep 16, 2013

And to think, I was almost completely out of good ideas....... :biggrin:

SRGB · Sep 16, 2013

hi life 45:

lol
srgb got on my case for having my lamp cords in a coil in my flip flop thread cant imagine what she will say when she see metal tape holding up electrical wires...use your lithium ion tools and screw down a zip tie or something... I know you have your stuff covered, its all the half assed stoned kids trying to copy you that I worry about.

Keep wearing down those electric trimmers..

--

OK SRGB I see whos playing favorites... JK....

Hi, hi life 45.

We are not certain about the post # and illustrations that you are referencing. Please post the post #`s.

We would like to hope a potentially unregulated heat sink, over a given period, possibly unattented, within a given configuration, might be well considered by a gardener; where much might be affected.

A recent post and reply:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=253987&page=92
at #1374 and #1375.

Thanks.

Kind regards,
/SRGB/

bobblehead:

Lol and that wire is supported with a piece of wood screwed into the ceiling. The tape is just holding it tight against the wall. I have the enclosure, I've just been lazy. I'll get it fixed proper soon.

--

Thanks for popping in SRGB! Don't be a stranger. I'm sure you can write a page or two about organics. Always a pleasure.

Hi, bobblehead.

Thanks, likewise.

We are not certain about the post # and illustration, referenced above. Please post the post #`s.

We have previously experimented with `organic` approaches to gardening, including pre-amended substrate and applying only water, to `organic` nutrition application. The techniques are possible within the method that we preferred, Drain-To-No-Waste, with adjustments allocated for pH management of the run-off in the external basin.

From what we could interpret, plant and tree roots might exchange cations, or electrical charges. We are not certain if plant roots are capable of differentiating between electrical charges derived from the conversion of organic matter, and dry nutrients dissolved as a solution.

`Organic` nutrients can be applied in `inorganic` ], or `organic` [sic][1] rocks, or in only air saturated with an organic nutrient solution. We would, perhaps, attempt to separate the concepts of `organic gardening` from `organic substrate management` to produce `organic` by-products for plants` roots.

Plants and trees sown and preserved by humans over millenia have, perhaps, become well adapted to many conditions, from thriving on the sides of granite mountains, in inert volcanic rock, to `living soils`, to saturated nutrient air.

An experiment with a relatively `organic` approach to gardening might include, for simplicity, one or two preferred primarily organic nutrients in liquid form, perlite and pumice. If the object was towards sustaining a `living soil` biosystem, there might be numerous possibilities to consider. Either might work, for what the specific objects or goals might be. Microbial life, and trace elements might exist on the surfaces of inert rocks, as well.

Where we did find `organic` approaches to be relatively effective, versus `inorganic` or chemical approaches, was insect or pathogen deterrence. Systemic pest control might simply infuse toxins into both the media and plant, while the insect kingdom may have become well adapted to survival and proliferation in the midst of various toxic substances. The cultivar might suffer and perish, the insects might still thrive.

For example, a few cloves of fresh garlic mixed with a quarter cup of tobacco, soaked in a glass container for a few days, strained and sprayed liberally onto a substrate surface might be a potential insect repellant experiment for a gardener to review results of, if any.

Again, nice work journaling your gardening explorations.

Best,
/SRGB/

[size=-2][1] For geological accuracy, `rocks` can be `organic` or `inorganic`. Further reading: geoscience dot wisc dot edu/~chuck/Classes/Mtn_and_Plates/rock_cycle.html[/size]

bobblehead · Sep 16, 2013

OrganicOzarks said:
I do have a brix Meter? I can't remember what the thing is called, but I have yet to use it. Honestly I was going to start measuring brix, and plant sap PH, but I don't think that it would help me to much. As more cannabis based science comes out I may apply those techniques, but not yet.

I do know that I have tested using tea once per week, twice per week, and from 3 weeks to the end up to 1 week to the end, and the best results were using tea twice per week foliar and soil drenched up to the last week of harvest. How about that run on sentence for you?

The finished product had a much more pronounced odor, crystal production was higher than I had ever had on the same cuts, and the potency was noticeably higher. I "turned" one so-so cut into a head ringer.

It took my light weight ass by surprise one day. Felt like I had been smacked up side the head by a sledge hammer. So I waited 30 minutes, and smoked some more.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Feel free to share your tea recipes and concentrations...

concentration makes a big difference in application frequency.

Mister_D said:
And to think, I was almost completely out of good ideas.......

I got you. Had to make you sweat a little, wondering if i'd ever start a new thread... Idk how you made it through all these years without me. Lol. Welcome aboard D!

SRGB said:
bobblehead:

Lol and that wire is supported with a piece of wood screwed into the ceiling. The tape is just holding it tight against the wall. I have the enclosure, I've just been lazy. I'll get it fixed proper soon.

--

Thanks for popping in SRGB! Don't be a stranger. I'm sure you can write a page or two about organics. Always a pleasure.

Hi, bobblehead.

Thanks, likewise.

We are not certain about the post # and illustration, referenced above. Please post the post #`s.
HL45 is referencing post #26, where I have an open-faced dpdt relay with 110v running through it. It appears as if the wires connected to the timer are only taped to the wall. They are supported on the ceiling by wood strip. I need to take everything apart and enclose the relay, so its not a fire hazard.

We have previously experimented with `organic` approaches to gardening, including pre-amended substrate and applying only water, to `organic` nutrition application. The techniques are possible within the method that we preferred, Drain-To-No-Waste, with adjustments allocated for pH management of the run-off in the external basin.

From what we could interpret, plant and tree roots might exchange cations, or electrical charges. We are not certain if plant roots are capable of differentiating between electrical charges derived from the conversion of organic matter, and dry nutrients dissolved as a solution.

I don't believe the plants can differentiate between synthetic and organic derived nutrients, however the balance of N is different between the 2. From what I've read, in organics the balance of NH4 to NO3 is 80/20. This is inverted to 20/80 with most synthetic fertilizer blends. NO3 inhibits root growth, which is what inhibits microbial life in the soil. Less root exudates to eat. Microbes are seriously misunderstood imo, and most people want to kill them all without prejudice. Coexistance is the only viable option imo.

`Organic` nutrients can be applied in `inorganic` rocks, or in only air saturated with an organic nutrient solution. We would, perhaps, attempt to separate the concepts of `organic gardening` from `organic substrate management` to produce `organic` by-products for plants` roots.

organic nutrients can be applied in a variety of way, I agree... But they won't necessarily be made available to the plants without establishing the soil food web. Arthropods and fungi are part of this, and are going to have a hard time establishing themselves without an organic medium. "Organic substate management" etc is an accurate depiction of what I'm trying to accomplish... Just kind of a long term.

Plants and trees sown and preserved by humans over millenia have, perhaps, become well adapted to many conditions, from thriving on the sides of granite mountains, in inert volcanic rock, to `living soils`, to saturated nutrient air.

An experiment with a relatively `organic` approach to gardening might include, for simplicity, one or two preferred primarily organic nutrients in liquid form, perlite and pumice. If the object was towards sustaining a `living soil` biosystem, there might be numerous possibilities to consider. Either might work, for what the specific objects or goals might be. Microbial life, and trace elements might exist on the surfaces of inert rocks, as well.

Where we did find `organic` approaches to be relatively effective, versus `inorganic` or chemical approaches, was insect or pathogen deterrence. Systemic pest control might simply infuse toxins into both the media and plant, while the insect kingdom may have become well adapted to survival and proliferation in the midst of various toxic substances. The cultivar might suffer and perish, the insects might still thrive.

For example, a few cloves of fresh garlic mixed with a quarter cup of tobacco, soaked in a glass container for a few days, strained and sprayed liberally onto a substrate surface might be a potential insect repellant experiment for a gardener to review results of, if any.
thanks for the tip.

Again, nice work journaling your gardening explorations.

Best,
/SRGB/

Thank you.

SRGB · Sep 16, 2013

RE: #26

RE: #26

bobblehead:

HL45 is referencing post #26, where I have an open-faced dpdt relay with 110v running through it. It appears as if the wires connected to the timer are only taped to the wall. They are supported on the ceiling by wood strip. I need to take everything apart and enclose the relay, so its not a fire hazard.

Hi, bobblehead.

Are those wires just twisted together? Without wirenuts? Don`t you have a fogger that emits periodically in the proximity, and relative humidity? Why no rigid conduit to the connection points? Why unnecessary bends in the wire runs? Why no rigid conduit enclosing runs to enclosed boxes covering connections? GFCI?

Those twisted wires can build up heat and arc. With those bends and being exposed to the environment, can also become brittle, interrupting the flow of electrons in the circuit. With constant voltage (pressure, or electro motive force) upon the elctrons, `build up` can occur at the bends and un-capped twists, creating a `heat sink`.

Especially the bottom wire connected (twisted) to each adjacent run; that entire piece of wire is in a position to build up heat at both the twist points. An volt/amp meter might be useful, to measure the difference, if any, in voltage/amperage on either side of that bottom piece of wire; there might be increased resistance to electron flow at those points indicated above. It might be advantageous to consider adjustments relevant to the current configuration.

In any event, we certainly did not notice that run. Thanks for sharing the post.

Best,
/SRGB/

high life 45 · Sep 16, 2013

This is the shocking reply I was waiting for, LOL.....I love this place.

Steer us to good organic pastures, Bobble..I'll be getting a brix meter shortly...

cyat · Sep 16, 2013

nice video bobble..

He was recommending a 3 to 1 ammoniacal nitrogen to nitrate nitrogen.. interesting cause

most experts or nute companies argue that too much ammoniacal nitrogen in flower will cause continuing unwanted veg type growth (stems and leaves).. I have experienced this with n gauno... In a bottle ff has some new earthworm based stuff with this ratio, and boron.. which I gathered helps move sugars

been pumping up calcium too which he recommends esp in flower.... gonna grab a refractometer one day

bobblehead · Sep 17, 2013

SRGB said:
bobblehead:

HL45 is referencing post #26, where I have an open-faced dpdt relay with 110v running through it. It appears as if the wires connected to the timer are only taped to the wall. They are supported on the ceiling by wood strip. I need to take everything apart and enclose the relay, so its not a fire hazard.

Hi, bobblehead.

Are those wires just twisted together? Without wirenuts? Don`t you have a fogger that emits periodically in the proximity, and relative humidity? Why no rigid conduit to the connection points? Why unnecessary bends in the wire runs? Why no rigid conduit enclosing runs to enclosed boxes covering connections? GFCI?

Those twisted wires can build up heat and arc. With those bends and being exposed to the environment, can also become brittle, interrupting the flow of electrons in the circuit. With constant voltage (pressure, or electro motive force) upon the elctrons, `build up` can occur at the bends and un-capped twists, creating a `heat sink`.

Especially the bottom wire connected (twisted) to each adjacent run; that entire piece of wire is in a position to build up heat at both the twist points. An volt/amp meter might be useful, to measure the difference, if any, in voltage/amperage on either side of that bottom piece of wire; there might be increased resistance to electron flow at those points indicated above. It might be advantageous to consider adjustments relevant to the current configuration.

In any event, we certainly did not notice that run. Thanks for sharing the post.

Best,
/SRGB/

high life 45 said:
This is the shocking reply I was waiting for, LOL.....I love this place.

Steer us to good organic pastures, Bobble..I'll be getting a brix meter shortly...

The twisted wire is a ground wire, and shouldn't normally carry a charge. All the same it will get fixed proper, and I'll use wire crimps at the connections. Thanks for making an example out of me guys!

.

cyat said:
nice video bobble..

He was recommending a 3 to 1 ammoniacal nitrogen to nitrate nitrogen.. interesting cause

most experts or nute companies argue that too much ammoniacal nitrogen in flower will cause continuing unwanted veg type growth (stems and leaves).. I have experienced this with n gauno... In a bottle ff has some new earthworm based stuff with this ratio, and boron.. which I gathered helps move sugars

been pumping up calcium too which he recommends esp in flower.... gonna grab a refractometer one day

Thanks. NH4 converts to NO3... If you look as the side by side studies of plants grown with organic vs synthetic nutes, the plants fed a diet higher in NO3 had more stem and leaf, and had a higher yield. The increase in yield was accompanied by a reduction in oil production.

Def get a refractometer. It really helps to determine the health of the plant based on parameters other than visual appearance.

I seem to have added too much lime... I'm having some pH issues, checked the sap pH, and it was 6.8. Its supposed to be 6.2-6.4. I foliar sprayed pH 5.5 water, and irrigated with pH 6.5 water. My tap water is pH 8.0. Brix was still a surprising 15 on my death star. Hopefully I get this problem corrected without much hassle. I haven't been adjusting the pH of my water until now.

SRGB · Sep 17, 2013

bobblehead:

The twisted wire is a ground wire, and shouldn't normally carry a charge. All the same it will get fixed proper, and I'll use wire crimps at the connections. Thanks for making an example out of me guys! .

--

I seem to have added too much lime... I'm having some pH issues, checked the sap pH, and it was 6.8. Its supposed to be 6.2-6.4. I foliar sprayed pH 5.5 water, and irrigated with pH 6.5 water. My tap water is pH 8.0. Brix was still a surprising 15 on my death star. Hopefully I get this problem corrected without much hassle. I haven't been adjusting the pH of my water until now.

Hi, bobblehead.

Not at all, just potential variables that could possibly be remediated. The length of the exposure of the run and uncinched connections were our most immediate observation, not particularly the type of circuit. We certainly did not intend to present our post as an example, we only sought to perhaps better understand your perspective regarding the run.

Foliar feeding between 6.5 - 7.5 pH, or a more base or slightly alkaline solution might tend to provide conditions for stomata to remain open; while a slightly more for acidic solution 6.2 - 6.5 applied upon leaves might tend to produce closing of stomata, yet might effect fruit or flowers. The given pH of the foliar spray might greatly affect its efficacy, at different stages of the season. It might be interesting for the gardener to further explore stomata response to pH of the applied foliar solution, and which elements are able to permeate the leaves cuticle at which pH`s. Do you use a surfacant?

An experimental `organic` approach to lowering pH in the substrate might be to try dispersing approximately a filter full of brewed coffee grounds onto the media, and watering as normal.

Regards,
/SRGB/

silver hawaiian · Sep 17, 2013

SRGB said:
An experimental `organic` approach to lowering pH in the substrate might be to try dispersing approximately a filter full of brewed coffee grounds onto the media, and watering as normal.

Regards,
/SRGB/

Was going to suggest the same..

bobblehead · Sep 17, 2013

Thanks SRGB. I don't normally drink coffee... Should the coffee grounds be used or does it not matter?

Edit: oh yeah, yucca is a surfactant and quillaja is a soap and makes everything foamy.

Ichabod Crane · Sep 17, 2013

Starbucks gives away coffee grounds.

bobblehead · Sep 17, 2013

You would know something like that... Cheap bastard.

silver hawaiian · Sep 17, 2013

bobblehead said:
Thanks SRGB. I don't normally drink coffee...

That might be your first problem

SRGB · Sep 17, 2013

bobblehead:

Thanks SRGB. I don't normally drink coffee... Should the coffee grounds be used or does it not matter?

Edit: oh yeah, yucca is a surfactant and quillaja is a soap and makes everything foamy.

Hi, bobblehead.

Either should work well, though we preferred to grind fresh whole coffee beans, brew the fresh grounds through the filter, and then use those grounds which had hot water run through them. That should, ideally, reduce the acidic concentration of the grounds; similar to running hot water over grounds a few occasions insuccession: the resulting coffee(solution) becomes `weaker`, or more diluted (manageable).

A pound of generic coffee is relatively inexpensive from ordinary grocery stores, or even less expensive at `discount` stores.

If you don`t have a coffee grinder, a blender might work. Or, simply acquire grounds to begin with. We preferred fresh whole beans as they are generally `fresher` when ground, but grounds should suffice.

This is a chart of the pH of various items:
--------- Item ------------------------ pH

Gastic stomach acid: 1.0
Lemon juice: 2.4
Vinegar: 2.8
Orange juice: 3.0
Tomato juice: 4.0
Coffee: 5.0
Detergent: 6.5
Milk: 6.8
Blood: 7.2
Sea water 8.0
Baking soda: 9.0
Milk of magnesia: 10.7
Domestic bleach: 11.0
Caustic soda: 14.0

The purpose of adding a surfacant to a foliar spray might be to reduce the surface tension present on the leaf, and help the solution to spread thinly upon the leaf, as opposed to larger droplets of solution that could roll off the leaf.

If the gardener adjusted their folair spray to a more alkaline pH, perhaps to better effectuate continued open stomata state during the application, the gardener might not desire for those more alkaline droplets to fall off the specimen onto and into the media below, which might be managed at 5.0 - 6.0 pH (or, whatever the gardener decided the ideal pH was for that cultivar). Wetting agents might help keep the foliar spray on the leaves, and more chemically and physically capable of permeating the surface of leaf and guard cells in the leaf. A small amount of the item you mentions might help, or a drop or two of dish detergent. The practical purpose might be to decrease solution droplets from forming on the leaf surface, instead, the solution `spreads` over the leaf surface.

We hope that this post might be helpful.

Best,
/SRGB/

Ichabod Crane · Sep 17, 2013

bobblehead said:
You would know something like that... Cheap bastard.

So, and your point is?

silver hawaiian said:
That might be your first problem

Damn I don't drink either! I could be struck by a alien spacecraft that is shot down by NORAD.

InjectTruth · Sep 17, 2013

Monitoring ph in organics is usually unneccessary, due to the chelating effect of humus/humic acid/fulvic acid and the action of the microherd (bacteria/fungi), not to mention the buffering capacity of lime.

That being said, rather than apply a ph adjusted water or coffee grounds, Id use humic acid/compost/castings tea or a fungal based tea. This will promote the maturation of the bed and the soil food web, instead of simply pushing the ph in the opposite direction (synthetic mindset), while simultaneously making nutes available to the plant immediately.

Fungi dominant teas drop the ph FAST. This is one of the reasons why 'cooking' soil is so important. It gives the fungi a chance to begin breaking down many of the organic amendments, so the giant ph spike is already over by the time you plant in it.

Hope this helps. Keep rockin bobble.

bobblehead · Sep 18, 2013

InjectTruth said:
Monitoring ph in organics is usually unneccessary, due to the chelating effect of humus/humic acid/fulvic acid and the action of the microherd (bacteria/fungi), not to mention the buffering capacity of lime.

That being said, rather than apply a ph adjusted water or coffee grounds, Id use humic acid/compost/castings tea or a fungal based tea. This will promote the maturation of the bed and the soil food web, instead of simply pushing the ph in the opposite direction (synthetic mindset), while simultaneously making nutes available to the plant immediately.

Fungi dominant teas drop the ph FAST. This is one of the reasons why 'cooking' soil is so important. It gives the fungi a chance to begin breaking down many of the organic amendments, so the giant ph spike is already over by the time you plant in it.

Hope this helps. Keep rockin bobble.

Thanks for the tip! I'll be sure to let my amendments cook before applying them in the future. It takes a few days to brew a fungal tea... so I don't think that adjusting the pH of the water was the wrong choice to try and correct things a little faster.

good advice! Thanks.

edit: I just popped my head in the garden and the plants are visually improving. Moisture levels in the beds are around 40-70mbar, and I don't irrigate again until they're around 150-200mbar. I actually don't even want my beds as saturated as they are, but I was trying to fix the pH issue. Hopefully I don't end up with over-watering issues.

bobblehead · Sep 18, 2013

I'm shocked. Some Goat is getting returned to me, and Straw DD is being asked for by name. Fucking wild. I take back my comments about taking her out of the big room. I really can't believe this. lol...

I had some bad ballasts last run. Both of my 600w xtrasun ballasts have failed by underdriving the lamps. Then this magnetic ballast itchybod gave me had the capacitor and ignitor go out. He probably gave me that one on purpose. My police auction 1kw mag ballast needs new hardware as well to drive the lamp at full power. When does it end!

lol... Oh yeah, I'm trimming 4oz an hour of Straw DD. Bigger buds = less time trimming. Back to work... Luckily I won't have to trim again for a couple months after this.

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