truely fully amended??

Kaptain_Kronic · Apr 17, 2012

hey all. started my latest grow, back in the dirt for the first time since my last year of hydro. i wanted to go organic and fully amended so heres what ive got.

soil mix: lc's soil mix # 2
6 parts promix bx
2 parts perlite
2 parts EWC
1 cup dolomite lime per cubic foot

mix is per 1gal soil
1/3 cup high N peruvian sea bird guano
1/2 cup high P indo bat guano
1 tbs kelp meal

all of which i mixed thoroughly and wet with a mixture of water molasses and liquid karma, let cook 2-3 weeks and now im potted.
its been about a week or so and things are coming along.

i just want to know if i can truely just use water (which i probably wont anyway).

on a side note, i have been reading up on ACT (aerated compost tea) and i build my own air lift brewer. i even put in a test batch and has been brewing for over 36 hours now.
unfortunately for me, i didnt read enough first, and i think i used too much molasses.
i thought it wasproper to use 1 cup EWC for 4-5 g and 1 tbs mollases per g..... but i just read that 1 tbs molasses is for 5g water. have i screwed up?

like i said before, not even sure that i need to feed with tea, but i thought it would be better if i did, so i plan to feed with the tea every other watering, or every watering if i see deficiencies later on in flower.

Kaptain_Kronic · Apr 17, 2012

this picture was taken only 2 hours brew time. when i checked on it today (approx 36 hours) it had a nice head of foam on the top. and it did not stink, but i could smell the molasses.

trichrider · Apr 17, 2012

Kaptain_Kronic said:
this picture was taken only 2 hours brew time. when i checked on it today (approx 36 hours) it had a nice head of foam on the top. and it did not stink, but i could smell the molasses.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=236171

grow on.

Kaptain_Kronic · Apr 17, 2012

well thanks i guess... at least now i know i really dont know anything.

the only thing i didnt like about that post is that basiclly what i got out of it is "if you dont have hundreds to spend on a microscope, your doing it wrong"

and being a person that despises anything that pretty much is considered only done right if your spending a ton of money for the equipment someone else says you should have.....
i went though that with the TAG guys and in spite of them i harvested 3 straight, very heavy yeilding low pressure aero runs. and i spent less than 40 bucks per unit that supported 4 full grown and flowered girls.

compost tea..... havnt played around enough yet to know if im licked or what, but all that talk of it going anaerobic kinda freaked me out..... i understand that without a microscope there is no way for me to know exactly what microbial life i have, but with following a recepie shouldnt you get the result as long as your compost is good?

for example, my tea only has molasses and EWC, not even my own EWC, i bought it. so why cant i say "yup, 1 cup EWC, 1tsp molasses and 24-26 hours brewing and im good" it may not be the most scientific way to approach this, but whats different about that than just pouring a set amount of chem ferts per gal. i may not know exactly the entire break down of what i put in, but someone else did the science, monkey see monkey do.

Cool Moe · Apr 17, 2012

what's up Kaptain? IMO the guano quantities in your mix seem to be at a high ratio per gallon--I'd back off to a couple tablespoons per gallon at most. Also your mix is lacking a nitrogen source--next time I'd consider adding either mexican bat guano or a different nitrogen source like alfalfa meal or blood meal at a ratio determined by your anticipated veg time.

You are correct in that for AACT the molasses quantity should be 1 tsp per 5 gallons, not 5 tsp per 5. No harm though, you just gave them a healthy dose of iron, magnesium, and many other valuable micronutrients. Keep in mind you aren't feeding with compost teas, you are watering with compost teas. The idea of compost tea is to multiply all the beneficial microbes, then let em loose on your rootzone where they will allow for better nutrient uptake.

Anyway, just my .02cents, good luck to ya.

Kaptain_Kronic · Apr 17, 2012

i understood, and agree with everything you said except where i have a lack of nitrogen source. i dont see how i can have a lack of N when you recommend i back off my guanos.
(also where you say compost tea doesnt feet, i know that isnt the purpose in useing it, but when using EWC and other compost, you surely have nutrients in the tea)
but this is my first organic run, and my first attempt to fully amend, also my first time with compost teas..... i guess when i get the itch to learn something new i dont know how to do it small lol. (oh, and if i didnt mention, also my first run with an outdoor girl)

alot of learning has already been done this round and we havnt even hit flower yet. though i cant say id do anything different yet.

Cool Moe · Apr 18, 2012

bro, if you're this far and you don't know which guano represents which major nutrient source...well then I'd say you should research more before you put out questions to which you can't even understand the answers

Kaptain_Kronic · Apr 18, 2012

are you fucking kidding me? i bought high N bat guano. says so right on the fucking box bro. dont come up here and tell me i dk wtf im talking about.

JKD · Apr 18, 2012

You can see these microbes under as little 10x magnification, although 40x is better. Such a magnifier is relatively cheap. There is a small advantage in seeing them, but it is by no means essential. If you have provided 'food', nutrient, dissolved oxygen and time they will be present. 30-35 degrees celsius and pH 7 -7.5 is where they reproduce most efficiently.

Foaming: Foaming can occur simply due to the aeration of the solution you are using. It can also occur from a vigorous growth phase of microbes - in this latter instance the foam will be extremely light and 'fluffy', as opposed to the more dense foam caused by the aeration of the solution. pH trending up can also indicate microbe growth.

Smell will indicate a healthy solution. If it stinks, you have dead biology in there and pH will fall also which will help identify this. This could be from lack of food, dissolved oxygen or nutrients, or a major pH issue etc. Your eyes and nose are probably the key tools in your kit when growing microbes...

If you are determined to use a microscope you may have trouble knowing what you are seeing without finding some pictures somewhere.

A young microbe solution will have stalked and free swimming ciliates. These look almost like a stationary air bubble with a stalk or for the latter, a stalkless bubble that zips around

. As it ages you may see rotifers and other predator microbes. Rotifers are longer with coloured internals and also move around.

The ciliates will be consuming the solids on your slide (molasses etc) the rotifers will be consuming the ciliates...

You are looking for not just the microbes themselves, but that there is an abundance of very active microbial life.

Hope this is some help to you.

JKD

Weird · Apr 18, 2012

you have amended soil the same mix bongaloid used

you should be able to water and add some molasses to make sure the micro herd is fed

worse case if they show signs of being underfed you can add a topdress tea or combination thereof

Metatron · Apr 18, 2012

KK

I've just mixed my 5th batch of soil and have to say that just guanos mixed in isn't fully amended. Not that it wouldn't feed the girls it is a different way to the finish line. One of the things I've gotten from organic growing I think is having a diverse list of ingredients that WHOLLY encompass the girls feeding regimen. Especially for flower you may want to look into rocks and minerals. Basic soil amendments include azomite and soft rock phosphate. Pushing the envelope includes glacial rock dust and greensand. This is important because from what I understand is that fungi grow best on the rock particles found in the previous listed ingredients and those are the bad boys responsible for the awesome blossoming in flower.

I'm totally with you on the whole microscope thing and from what I read is that bacteria is good for nitrogen uptake and fungi is good for phosphorus...in a nutshell.

So I don't look at my bacteria, I apply tea and the girls look good. Also with tea I'm reading that the idea of less is better is a good approach. I've read that three teas throughout the grow will suffice. I'm applying this to my run this summer outdoors. I imagine a basic ACT when you pot up to your final pot would be good even after maybe a week of being in their. Alfalfa tea at the end of your veg cycle and a fungi one after flowering has set. Other than that plain water and whatever you need to supplement any deficiencies.

KK I am in no way a guru or professional of the sort. I am just another dude who's gravitated to organic growing. I've done two grows with hydro and two with organic and given some soil I've mixed to fellow gardeners. I'm still learning a lot but wish some more people would chime in when I ask for perspective. Just my two cents.

GL

-M

VerdantGreen · Apr 18, 2012

looks good but you might do better with even more diversity.

i use seaweed meal at 5g/litre of soil, 1 tablespoon is 12g.. so i use about twice as much as you plus i also use rock potash at 5g/ litre (about 1 tbs / gallon)

the guanos, i use a different brand but my N guano i use at up to 5g/litre, which is about 1/4 or 1/3 cup per gallon about the same as you

P guano i use at 1/4 cup per gallon and i also use rock phosphate at the same rate which afaik is pretty similar to P guano... so i guess its about the same

so yeah apart from potentially being a bit short on K you look about right to me. K is important for flowering so you might want to have something ready to boost them

fully amended is a good way to grow imo. i actually never use teas or anything and i get great results without them... but remember to watch your plants for signs of deficiency. if they need something then feed em. i get away without any feeding about 50% of the time. you also want to use decent size pots if you want decent sized plants

VG

Kaptain_Kronic · Apr 18, 2012

thanks for the helpfull input guys!

looks like i will be lookin into some rock powders and how to add them to already potted girls.

being that this is my first amended and organic soil grow, i am happy with my soil mix to start, and it seems my girls like it too. my blue widow has never looked sad or droopy, even as the soil begins to dry if i wasnt home all day, shes perfect.

when i finish up all my tweeks to the system i will post up a show thread loaded with progress pics and build and w/e w/e yall like to see. but im trying to upgrade my light, and optimize my soil (prolly just gonna mix up a top dressing and lay it down right before i mulch.

Jungle.Microbes · Apr 18, 2012

good luck with your grow bro.. Rock powders are very easy to add.. I typically top dress my plants halfway through flower with a mix of soft rock phosphate / gypsum / caco3 lime, and it gives the microbes a nice boost of matter to break down.

Since I've been amending and top dressing with this, I have way better harvests, much less bug pressure, and healthy plants for their entire cycle.

Kaptain_Kronic · Apr 18, 2012

thanks jungle.microbes!

would you say that the lime is necessary if its added at the onset? or is this "caco3 lime" not for PH but for the minerals?

Microbeman · Apr 22, 2012

JKD said:
You can see these microbes under as little 10x magnification, although 40x is better. Such a magnifier is relatively cheap. There is a small advantage in seeing them, but it is by no means essential. If you have provided 'food', nutrient, dissolved oxygen and time they will be present. 30-35 degrees celsius and pH 7 -7.5 is where they reproduce most efficiently.

Foaming: Foaming can occur simply due to the aeration of the solution you are using. It can also occur from a vigorous growth phase of microbes - in this latter instance the foam will be extremely light and 'fluffy', as opposed to the more dense foam caused by the aeration of the solution. pH trending up can also indicate microbe growth.

Smell will indicate a healthy solution. If it stinks, you have dead biology in there and pH will fall also which will help identify this. This could be from lack of food, dissolved oxygen or nutrients, or a major pH issue etc. Your eyes and nose are probably the key tools in your kit when growing microbes...

If you are determined to use a microscope you may have trouble knowing what you are seeing without finding some pictures somewhere.

A young microbe solution will have stalked and free swimming ciliates. These look almost like a stationary air bubble with a stalk or for the latter, a stalkless bubble that zips around . As it ages you may see rotifers and other predator microbes. Rotifers are longer with coloured internals and also move around.

The ciliates will be consuming the solids on your slide (molasses etc) the rotifers will be consuming the ciliates...

You are looking for not just the microbes themselves, but that there is an abundance of very active microbial life.

Hope this is some help to you.

JKD

http://microbeorganics.com/microbeidentifypart1.pdf

http://microbeorganics.com/microbeidentifypart2.pdf

Microbeman · Apr 22, 2012

Good luck discerning flagellates from smaller ciliates (without experience) at 40x. 200x & 400x however works well. If you go by smell, the odor of the foodstock (eg molasses) should be gone (mostly). A foul odor can indicate anaerobes. This may help, although it was used elsewhere;

If someone is selling compost tea, especially if they claim to follow it with a microscope, they should be able to show you something similar to the following.

The following clips demonstrate the changes that an aerated compost tea (ACT) goes through over time. Please excuse my unusual form of narration. Note that the following ‘brews’ were all made using simple ingredients as itemized on my webpage (good finished but fresh vermicompost at 2.38%, black strap molasses at 0.50%, fish hydrolysate at 0.063%, feed grade kelpmeal [not necessary!] at less than 0.25%, soft rock phosphate [not necessary!] at 0.063%) Lately I have been making ACT successfully using only vermicompost and molasses.

First at 18 hours, the early stages of a brew, normally we see the development/division of bacteria/archaea and the growth of fungal hyphae. If one is seeking a fungal brew for some reason, this is the time to use it.
http://microbeorganics.com/18hrs2vcfree.wmv

In the following clip I identify an amoeba as a naked type but in retrospect it may be an active testate amoeba.
http://microbeorganics.com/18hrs3vcfree.wmv

Usually some time between 24 and 40 hours flagellates and/or naked amoebae excyst (hatch out) and begin dividing every 2 to 4 hours so the population increases rapidly. Flagellates are the small globe-like creatures moving about. They are larger than bacteria/archaea but normally smaller than ciliates. It is the flagellates in ACT which are mainly responsible for cycling nutrients to your plants. As they eat bacteria/archaea they excrete ionic (available) form nutrients to the roots. Amoebae and ciliates also contribute to this but too many ciliates can be a sign that there may be an abundance of anaerobic bacteria and the ‘brew’ is on its way (or has gone) downhill.
http://microbeorganics.com/36hrsvcfree.wmv

At 42 hours we still have a good ‘brew’ and this is often the stage I usually apply it at but I recommend 36 hours to folks who do not use a microscope. You can see that ciliates have come to life by the presence of the beautiful vorticella.
http://microbeorganics.com/42hrsvcfree.wmv

Finally, at 60 hours takes a very efficient machine and good monitoring with microscope and O2 meter to ensure good quality. Although it is not stressed in the narration one can see the increasing presence of ciliates whizzing around out of focus. These are normally larger and faster than flagellates and can indicate the presence of too many anaerobic bacteria. Usually if the ‘brew’ is continued on past this point it degrades rapidly, with ciliates and anaerobic bacteria dominating.
http://microbeorganics.com/60hrsvcfree.wmv

As long as there are much greater numbers of flagellates and/or naked (active) amoebae than ciliates there is no worry because ciliates also cycle nutrients. It is possible to run a perpetual ‘brew’ but there will always be a down cycle where undesirable organisms dominate until the new [vermi]compost and foodstock kicks in (starts being consumed and the correct microbial groups begin multiplying again) and homeostasis is established. I have seen this down cycle persist for at least 24 hours.

Shops selling from a perpetual brew:
If one is selling tea to customers from a perpetual ‘brew’, how do you decide which customer(s) gets the inferior ‘tea’. There are people who did the testing of perpetual brews a number of years ago and assuming that ACT is about achieving a consortium of diverse nutrient cycling microorganisms, they concluded there is greater efficacy achieved by starting a new ‘brew’ each time.

Those who advocate the perpetual brew support their method by alluding to some mysterious hidden diversity which one can not know about without DNA testing. This is complicating the use of ACT and [vermi]compost far beyond its simple form and use within the microbial nutrient loop. They are confusing bacteria and archaea which fix nitrogen (and other nutrients) with the nutrient cycling previously described, wherein nutrients are cycled by protozoa feasting on bacteria/archaea and excreting bioavailable nutrients taken up by roots. The diversity we are looking for are bacteria/archaea and flagellates (and amoebae) mainly. Fungal hyphae provides an ongoing food resource, binds soil aggregates, provides microbial pathways, degrades organic matter and increases moisture and O2 holding capacity. There is no mystery here, no specialty agents (although there could be) and it is as easy to see that diversity, with a microscope as it is looking for robins, sparrows and crows in your back yard with binoculars.

The folks who are perpetuating this mystery bunk to advocate perpetual brews, as far as I can tell, do so to line their pockets. They do not appear to back up their statements with data and criticize other ‘brewer’ sellers who do. They entice hydro shop owners by illustrating how they can price gouge their customers. Amusingly they also state on their site that one should not ‘brew’ beyond 24 hours because the microbes must be applied hungry…..Yikes!

Once one becomes practiced at microscopy, flagellates and ciliates can generally be told apart by movement (in most cases). Also, usually there is a size difference.

Microbeman · Apr 22, 2012

To be relatively sure of having a nutrient cycling microbial consortium (flagellates and/or naked amoebae with bacteria/archaea) I usually recommend a 36 hour brew time unless your nose tells you different.

Microbeman · Apr 22, 2012

I use molasses at 0.50% by volume; 5 gallons x 0.5% = 0.025 = 6.4 tablespoons

mad librettist · Apr 22, 2012

JKD said:
You can see these microbes under as little 10x magnification, although 40x is better. Such a magnifier is relatively cheap. There is a small advantage in seeing them, but it is by no means essential. If you have provided 'food', nutrient, dissolved oxygen and time they will be present. 30-35 degrees celsius and pH 7 -7.5 is where they reproduce most efficiently.

Foaming: Foaming can occur simply due to the aeration of the solution you are using. It can also occur from a vigorous growth phase of microbes - in this latter instance the foam will be extremely light and 'fluffy', as opposed to the more dense foam caused by the aeration of the solution. pH trending up can also indicate microbe growth.

Smell will indicate a healthy solution. If it stinks, you have dead biology in there and pH will fall also which will help identify this. This could be from lack of food, dissolved oxygen or nutrients, or a major pH issue etc. Your eyes and nose are probably the key tools in your kit when growing microbes...

If you are determined to use a microscope you may have trouble knowing what you are seeing without finding some pictures somewhere.

A young microbe solution will have stalked and free swimming ciliates. These look almost like a stationary air bubble with a stalk or for the latter, a stalkless bubble that zips around . As it ages you may see rotifers and other predator microbes. Rotifers are longer with coloured internals and also move around.

The ciliates will be consuming the solids on your slide (molasses etc) the rotifers will be consuming the ciliates...

You are looking for not just the microbes themselves, but that there is an abundance of very active microbial life.

Hope this is some help to you.

JKD

you need to do some reading, sir.

observing via microscopy is the primary and best way to judge a compost tea. A scope that goes only to 40x would be a very bad purchase for anyone hoping to brew with it.

as stated in microbeman's pages, we are looking for certain proportions, not just activity in general. After only about 15 hours or so behind the scope, using Microbeman's videos as autodidactic material, you can look at a tea drop and know instantly if it's ok, much like you are able to look out the window to see if you need an umbrella or a parasol.

smelly tea does not indicate death, but rather very alive anaerobic bacteria. you can notice the same smell in riparian areas when your boot gets stuck in mud and you pull it out. it's not bad if you are a riparian plant with the floral equivalent of human kidneys, but for cannabis it's disaster.

truely fully amended??

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