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Never seen this before ... could use advice

T

theroadwarrior7

New member
I have 12 seedlings (4 different strains) which are maybe 3 weeks old. They were doing fine and then all of a sudden started turning.

They are in a 50/50 mix of miracle grow seed starter and another brand seed starter with no nutrients. I normally use promix but for whatever reason didn't this time.

Just used spring water and to be honest rarely have I ever phd water for seedlings so not sure of ph.

Moved them under a 400 mh from a 4 light t5. They weren't that close. Maybe 3 feet.

I saw 1 adult spider mite but no eggs but this really doesn't look like spider mite damage and there is no visible webbing.

Could use some help.
 

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AgentPothead

AgentPothead

Just this guy, ya know?
Visually I am reminded of calcium deficiency, but it's effecting the oldest growth not the newer growth so I'm not sure it is that. I would definitely get a pH pen though, it really helps to know what you are putting in because some nutrients get locked out above or below certain pH.
 
T

theroadwarrior7

New member
So these were in my garage and the only light on in there was the t-5 or more recently the 400. Thinking it might have been moth damage possibly. I do not notice any caterpillar in the soil.
 
T

theroadwarrior7

New member
AgentPothead said:
Visually I am reminded of calcium deficiency, but it's effecting the oldest growth not the newer growth so I'm not sure it is that. I would definitely get a pH pen though, it really helps to know what you are putting in because some nutrients get locked out above or below certain pH.
Click to expand...

I don't know that I have ever experienced a deficiency in a seedling but I guess I shouldn't rule it out. It just came out of nowhere so I assumed it was a insect problem of some sort. I do have a PH pen but usually only use it when mixing nutrients. But I will start using it on all my water just in case.
 
T

TanzanianMagic

Well-known member
Veteran
theroadwarrior7 said:
I have 12 seedlings (4 different strains) which are maybe 3 weeks old. They were doing fine and then all of a sudden started turning.

They are in a 50/50 mix of miracle grow seed starter and another brand seed starter with no nutrients. I normally use promix but for whatever reason didn't this time.

Just used spring water and to be honest rarely have I ever phd water for seedlings so not sure of ph.

Moved them under a 400 mh from a 4 light t5. They weren't that close. Maybe 3 feet.

I saw 1 adult spider mite but no eggs but this really doesn't look like spider mite damage and there is no visible webbing.

Could use some help.
Click to expand...
I would say the use of miracle grow instead of your old promix would be the culprit. Possibly also a change in the spring water, however I would look at the growing mix first.

It looks like some kind of calcium deficiency or lockout. These seed starter mixes don't have enough nutrients in them. Weed needs a moderate level of P and K, and very little N, to grow a large root system. When the plant has a large root system, it takes up most of what is poured on the soil, which means you can lower your nutrient concentration and don't need to flush.
 
T

theroadwarrior7

New member
TanzanianMagic said:
I would say the use of miracle grow instead of your old promix would be the culprit. Possibly also a change in the spring water, however I would look at the growing mix first.

It looks like some kind of calcium deficiency or lockout. These seed starter mixes don't have enough nutrients in them. Weed needs a moderate level of P and K, and very little N, to grow a large root system. When the plant has a large root system, it takes up most of what is poured on the soil, which means you can lower your nutrient concentration and don't need to flush.
Click to expand...

I am kicking myself for using miracle grow. I was out of promix and I have never had issues with pro mix and this spring water. PH of spring water is 6.8 but I can't be sure how it fluctuates as I always mix nutrients first and then ph. I agree that it looks like calcium problem. Any recommendation? I've been running advanced nutrients line. Mix a light batch of nutrients, ph, then flush with that mix? Add some calmag (i have calmag plus from botanicare but have never needed to open it).
 
AgentPothead

AgentPothead

Just this guy, ya know?
theroadwarrior7 said:
I don't know that I have ever experienced a deficiency in a seedling but I guess I shouldn't rule it out. It just came out of nowhere so I assumed it was a insect problem of some sort. I do have a PH pen but usually only use it when mixing nutrients. But I will start using it on all my water just in case.
Click to expand...
I also have never had problems in seedling like that :( I wish I could help more bro. The soil ph should be around 6-7, but any thing below 6.2 or 6.3 I think the calcium gets locked out. My water comes out at 7 natural so occasionally I ph down it to around 6.5 or so just to make sure I'm not locking anything out.
I have always referred to this graphic.
soil-ph-chart-marijuana.jpg
 
K

KDM

New member
theroadwarrior7 said:
Try to foilar feed calmag maybe? It's tough as these were gifted seeds and I'd hate to lose them.
Click to expand...
Hi there.According to this chart potassium, or,manganese is the problem.I would keep the girls off nutes for a while, and,as advised keep the ph around 6.5.Leaves that, according to the chart again, have reached late late stage can be cut.Hope it helps
 

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GoatCheese

GoatCheese

Active member
Veteran
Hi.
To me your soil looks quite moist in those pictures, and because the leaves seem to be also yellowing abit i'd say that might be over-watering damage. The leaves droop which is also a symptom of over watering. Seedlings don't handle over watering very well.
:)
 
T

theroadwarrior7

New member
GoatCheese said:
Hi.
To me your soil looks quite moist in those pictures, and because the leaves seem to be also yellowing abit i'd say that might be over-watering damage. The leaves droop which is also a symptom of over watering. Seedlings don't handle over watering very well.
:)
Click to expand...

I agree with you. They are soaked. I actually have a ton of perlite in there. The top inch is all sphagnum minus whatever perlite floated up. That said yesterday my buddy thought the light was burning them and moved them under the t5 and drenched them so they definitely are soaked now.

I am going to flush them with a new phd solution to try and correct it so unfortunately they are only going to droop more. I begged for these seeds too so this sucks.

Overwatering or not something else is messed up. Any ideas?
 

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T

theroadwarrior7

New member
KDM said:
Hi there.According to this chart potassium, or,manganese is the problem.I would keep the girls off nutes for a while, and,as advised keep the ph around 6.5.Leaves that, according to the chart again, have reached late late stage can be cut.Hope it helps
Click to expand...

I've never given them nutes. Just whatever little bit was in the seedlings starter mix. Whatever it is I don't know if more plain water will help. Problem is it looks like different things depending on which chart or which picture I look at. It looks like a calcium in some and potassium in others. Like dank pointed out it looks like phosphorous as well. Miracle-Gro-Seed-Starting-Mix-Ingredients.jpg
 
T

theroadwarrior7

New member
KDM said:
Hi there.According to this chart potassium, or,manganese is the problem.I would keep the girls off nutes for a while, and,as advised keep the ph around 6.5.Leaves that, according to the chart again, have reached late late stage can be cut.Hope it helps
Click to expand...

After googling Manganese deficiencies it really looks close.

My buddy swears he has seen wind damage do that as well and I did just install a fan aimed directly at them when I put them under the MH. First fan they had seen. It a good breeze but not a hurricane. I've never heard of it but some people swear its real. It almost makes sense because the spots started arriving same time.
 
K

KDM

New member
theroadwarrior7 said:
After googling Manganese deficiencies it really looks close.

My buddy swears he has seen wind damage do that as well and I did just install a fan aimed directly at them when I put them under the MH. First fan they had seen. It a good breeze but not a hurricane. I've never heard of it but some people swear its real. It almost makes sense because the spots started arriving same time.
Click to expand...
A slight breeze, temperatures around 25C-28C,humidity 40%?,not too much drinking......sounds like a promising date :) A date with a future.Keep us posted, and,glad the chart helped
 
GoatCheese

GoatCheese

Active member
Veteran
theroadwarrior7 said:
I agree with you. They are soaked. I actually have a ton of perlite in there. The top inch is all sphagnum minus whatever perlite floated up. That said yesterday my buddy thought the light was burning them and moved them under the t5 and drenched them so they definitely are soaked now.

I am going to flush them with a new phd solution to try and correct it so unfortunately they are only going to droop more. I begged for these seeds too so this sucks.

Overwatering or not something else is messed up. Any ideas?
Click to expand...
NOOOOOO!!!:)
You only flush soil if you have a pH problem or because of too hot soil/nutrients, but you do not flush them to cure over watering damage cause that's how you created the problem in the first place, right.
Don't flush them but just the opposite, don't water them till you feel the containers getting a good bit lighter. If the soil is really moist now, then lift some of those cups up and try to get a good feel how super moist soil weighs, so you can compare it with a cup full of dry/slightly moist soil.

I grow in fairly small pots 3- 6 litres and keep my "keepers/clones" in even smaller pots, and i sort of calculate the moisture content of the container by lifting them up and feeling the pot in my hands; how much it weighs compared to fairly dry soil. I used to suck at watering my plants when i started growing, so over watering damage is very familiar to me.

Plants are individuals and some drink more than others, and so they also should be watered accordingly, some more than others. And lifting the pots is quite handy when you're figuring out the moisture level of each container.

So, if those cups are soaked now then fill one similar cup with dry soil and feel the difference.


Re-potting them might help you move forward faster than waiting them heal in those old cups. Do you have drainage holes on those cups? If not then it's quite easy to over water seedlings which will lead to root rot and perhaps even death if you keep that up too long.

I suggest you re-pot them in to containers with good drainage and some new soil and "start over" and go easier with watering them.

Whatever you choose to do, DO NOT FLUSH THEM.
Hope you get it sorted, mate.
 
T

TanzanianMagic

Well-known member
Veteran
theroadwarrior7 said:
I am kicking myself for using miracle grow. I was out of promix and I have never had issues with pro mix and this spring water. PH of spring water is 6.8 but I can't be sure how it fluctuates as I always mix nutrients first and then ph. I agree that it looks like calcium problem. Any recommendation? I've been running advanced nutrients line. Mix a light batch of nutrients, ph, then flush with that mix? Add some calmag (i have calmag plus from botanicare but have never needed to open it).
Click to expand...
The best thing to do is to put them in a better soil mix, then feed them some light dose of bloom food (P OR P/K, 0.2 EC -0.4 EC max) so the roots can grow and find the nutrients in the medium. Phosphorous stimulates root growth more than the best root stimulator.

That's the best thing for it, or you'll be chasing deficiencies and lockouts for a long time.

If promix worked, that's good, as long as it isn't stronger than what they're in now. At this stage, the plant doesn't need a lot of nitrogen, however it needs phosphorus and potassium to grow a big root system and big stems and branches to carry the nutrients to the foliage. Cannabis always needs a slightly elevated background level of magnesium, because of all the green foliage.

Also, you need to put perlite or grow rocks in the pots high enough to cover the drainage holes. Weed needs a moist soil, however any standing water immediately drowns the air roots, which start to decompose in an anaerobic environment, which drags down the pH and causes mobile nutrient lockout (NPK, Mg).
 
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