Issue with Seedlings in Coco

I made a post about this issue in the Infirmary but I have yet to receive a solid answer as to what the problem may be and since I am using Canna Coco with Canna Nutes, I figured I may be able to get some help over here.

A few of my Serious Seeds AK47 seedlings are showing some issues and I am looking for any help I can get.

Seeds were germinated in Canna Coco flushed with tap water of EC 0.25 and pHed to 5.8. All seeds germed and were fed with pHed tap water and 4ml/gal Rhizotonic for the first seven days and have been fed Canna Coco A&B at 2.5ml/gal and 6ml/gal Rhizotonic for the past two days. Temps in the room are around 70F and temps at the base of the plants are at 75F. Humidity at the base of the plants is around 75%. They are under 24/7 light schedule right now under 96watts of 6500k HO T5 lamps.

Take a look at these pictures and tell me what you think the issue may be.







These seedlings are having some problems. Here is a picture of one of the healthy ones not showing any issues.



Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I think you might be burning those little boys and girls...

As I understand one does not feed until the 2 first false leaves dies...

Try flushing, and weaken your nutrient solution - my babies did that when I fed them too early...they are still on "breast milk" - no use trying to feed them a nice juicy "steak" - ha ha - I think it is my Christian upbringing - speaking in parables!

I bet this will fix your problem. Get a tray to hold water. Get a stand with holes that you can put your cups on. water daily.

I know this may sound crazy, but you want at least a little bit of water to come out of those cups daily, and the cups shouldn't have to sit in the standing water. You're using tap water, and with how dry your coco looks, I bet its reality salty, and a little hard (ca) in there. Don't be afraid to give them much much water. you will not drown the girls as long as the cups are not standing in water.

hey ram, You know, i been messing with coco the past 2 years and i too have random problems with babies in coco. Yours look like the are a bit to young to be feed, the tip burn and drying lead me to say that. the spotting on some of the larger leaves looked abit like when roots arent getting enough oxygen.

I too love the rhizotonic, and the bio boost is another GREAT product as well. i am a believer in these 2 enhancers when it seems like every company puts crap on the market to make there money. these 2 canna products are a grand slam in my book.

Are you watering daily? you should be, also IMO i like to take fill cups only half way when there from seed or cuttings. Unitill they get a few nodes, then they graduate to a full cup. I feel they take off a little quicker with the half cups in the beginning.

if mine had these issues,i would Run a full solo cup(16oz) of ph'd water thru today. i would check the run off to see where the ppm & ph are at. write it down, or reallllly try to remember where its at.

if your runn off ppm is over 350-400ppm, your coco needs some more flushing, run another cup thru and see where you are at. leave it .

tomarrow, run a half cup thru and read the ending of the runn off. if your ppm is lower, good, keep running half cups of ph'd water every day unitll you get a few more nodes. then maybe runn arround 400 ppm. EVERY DAY.

when the water in the cups sits for more then 24 hrs, it suffocates the roots. the roots need & love oxygen. when you water your replace the oxygen, so always water atleast daily. (this is why u may read of setups watering more then once a day, there replacing the deprived oxygen more often. your plants will love it)

Your ph of your run off shouldnt be to high or to low either. 6.2 is pushing it, anything above and you need to get this in check. 5.5- 5.4 is pushing it on the low scale.

So say your runn off is 6.3, i would water with 5.7 or 5.6. knowing that PH of my feed will raise due to the medium. after a few days your runn off should be a little lower. if it doesnt AFTER A FEW DAYS. try running 5.6, 5.5, but 5.5 may also be to low, but i have.

You may also wanna try cannas cogr buffer if u continue to have ph issues. i am experimenting with it now. even thou it says on the label to pretreat the coco, i have treated coco with healthy vegging plants already established. i set it at 20mil a gallon with NO FEED, ph to 5.5 and runn a bunch thru the coco. let it sit 24hrs, then continue on a whatever normal may be.

The cogr buffer i am new to. BUT, IME with my botanicare's coco(brick 5kilo), my runn off in Veg has been 6.2-6.3. with the cogr treatment that i said above, my runn off is now around 5.8. 5.8 is right around where i should be, atleast i believe i should be around this ph. Only been using the COGr buffer for not even 2 weeks, it seems promising at this point.

B-safe

Water with straight 5.8 pH'ed water for 4-5 days and everything should be fine; you're getting a little too rowdy on the nutes for those little guys/gals.

I don't think think they'll benefit from a daily watering in those cups yet unless those roots are packing in and drinking up a moderate amount of water. I've had my share of beer cup coco seedlings and I think that they're too big for the first two weeks in the seedling stage, ESPECIALLY to take benefit from daily waterings. Your environment will play a role in this too, so this is just what I have come across with growing seedlings in coco. If you're still able to, try cutting at least one of them in half. Progress into watering it daily for comparison.

But yeah gotta agree on pretty much everything else.

Bro........You`re drownin and burnin em up at the same time........Quit killin em with kindness and let some root set start takin place.......

They`ll never make a rootmass if they stay wet......Seedlings as well as cuts gotta dry out so roots will form laterally to start supporting the vertical growth of the plant.........

I went to clear 16 oz. solo cups in coco bout 8 months ago and it`s amazing to watch how my cuts that dry out faster blast on so many more roots than the ones around the perimeter of the t-5`s........

I now move em around regularly so they`ll all dry out at about the same time , grow the same rootmass , and be ready to get pre-vegged before going into the bloom rooms........

Getcha some clear cups Ram.......Let those babies dry out some but do as has been stated above about runoff ppm`s and ph....Other than that......Let em do their thing and you`ll be fine........

Holler if I can help........

Peace.........DHF......... .........

deadhead. your saying that letting the coco dry more when young is better? I always felt that by watering often you change the oxygen levels at the roots and that was a good thing. i should try the technique you speak of. i just found that running water daily when young seemed to work better for me.

But i can say this thought thou. to add as to why your results are different then mine, my temps are pretty cool in my veg room, low mid 70's, and i dont get much evaporating going on.

Im gonna get a fan circulating in there to help speed up drying. i believe this is a factor i over looked.

B-safe

Thanks to everyone who has provided some help/insight!!

Let me give a brief update on how the seedlings are doing. I recalibrated my meter a few days ago only to find out that my tap water has an EC=0.1 (50ppm@.5, 70ppm@.7) so I have been feeding the seedlings for the past three days with tap water and a little cal-mag to an EC=.45 (225ppm@.5) with a pH of 5.8. I have been checking the run-off as gmanwho stated and the average run-off has been EC .53 (265ppm@.5) with an average pH of 5.87.

The seedlings are growing very slowly; however, they are growing so I cant complain. A few of the seedlings are still showing the same issues and the healthy ones are starting to lighten in color/showing possible signs of Mg def. Right now, the temps in the room are around 74F and the humidity is around 60%. I am running the lights 24/7. Should I switch the lights to 18/6 or should I continue at 24/7 for a little more time?

Take a look at the seedlings. Let me know what you think.

ram, sounds to me like your are seeing improvement. that light green growth can sometimes throw you off. it may be mag, or N, BUT your dont want to do any drastic feedings. give them a few more ph waterings then start some light veg feed, ad in the cal-mag but light doses. I found with cal mag i usually great at 3mil a gallon at mid to late veg. with your seedlings go at like 1 mil a gal and a few mill of grow. maybe 300-400 ppm and you should be good.


your environment is good. your runn off ph is good. at a ph of 5.8 you should be picking up enough cal an mag. make sure you check your calibration ever few days, never put the ph cal solution back into the bottle.

your old growth will never recover, so just focus on the new growth. No drastic feedings, no drastic change in nutes or ph. My plants love consistent feeds.With some patience you'll be off to the races.

i like my plants to get a little shut eye, 18/6 or 20/4, i use 20/4 lately, not sure whats better 18/6 or 20/4? 20/4 seems to be working just fine. 24 for clones, they need to know to veg.

B-safe and give us an update when you feel its necessary.

18/6 has been the best formula for seedlings I`ve run up on........Clones seemta start out slower and that`s where a lotta folks get impatient and employ the 20/4 schedule and swear by it but there`s not a shred of evidence to back it up as far as accelerated growth.........

Ram........Just try ta get past this and find some females for cloning next run..........At least they`re growin.........

It`ll only get better Bro.......Good luck and take care.........DHF.......... ..........

I'm also new to coco and growing, and made the same mistakes overnute included.

I'd switch them to 18/6, I also tried 24/0 and 20/4 and guess those maybe could help if everything else is optimal, which doesn't look to be your situation (nor was mine)... I recall the photosyntesis theory from school and the dark phase was equally needed!

Good luck with those seedlings!!

ram, how's your plants?

Interesting thing happened to my seedlings.

Had a couple - just sprouted in soil - transplanted them to coco.

At the same time I planted a few seeds in straight coco.

All the seedlings are about the same size now, but the seedlings that use to be in soil looks much healthier than the seedlings planted in straight coco.

And I am wondering if there is something in soil, essential to seedling development, that is lacking in coco; all the cuttings, from a mature plant seems to do fine in coco from day 1, but seedlings not so fine.

Maybe silica/silicon?

You know, I've had all kinds of trouble with seeds/seedlings in coco, too. I recently realized that with me, the problem originated in the peat pucks I've always used to start seeds: even when watering very lightly every day with pH'ed water, I was saturating the PUCKS after transplanting into coco. But as with Dee9, my seedlings have always done well in soil.

I'm actually thinking I'll start all my seeds in a light soil mix, then wash the roots and plunk the babies into coco. That's what I did with my Dream Goddess seedlings and they took right off with no problem. That, or start germing seeds in very lightly nuted (say, 250-300ppm) containers of coir. May have better luck minus the peat pucks.

Lots of good advice in this thread

Hi RamCTD1027,

I think the issue may be adjusting the ph. I have been growing in coir for years and NEVER even adjust or check my ph. When I did check my tap water ph it read 6.8 - 7.0 range. The ph adjusting is done in the coir medium with the addition of dolomite lime. I think the ph is much too overarated in soiless. If this was a pure water resevoir hydro than yes, ph would be very important and it would be needed to be checked regularly. In coir, stop adjusting and checking ph and treat it like soil. I grow in 5 gallon buckets of coir and they are watered every 3 days with a gallon of their nutrients. When I used to try and check and adjust my ph when I first started growing in coir, I was havong issues very very similiar to what your babies are seeing.. It is almost like too much monitoring and adjuting is actually hurting their health versus letiing mother nature take care of the kids...... The only thing I will stress is that to maintain my ph and take care of all mag and calcium issues for the entire grow, I add 2 tablespoons of dolomite lime per gallon of coir and that's it for the rest of the grow on these issues..... PH, Calcium and Magneseum.....

Peace and Good Luck!!
Patch

I've noticed this too... seeds started directly in coco seem to pass along a delicate stage where its first leafs show some clorosis spots, at first I thought I had overnuted them, but the next seeds that got plain water and A+B at EC 0.5 showed the same. Once they reach 3 weeks no further problems arise and they develop just fine, never added Cal/mag or anything.

What Patch7 says seems to be sound... I'm going to try that as my tap water EC is very low (0.2) and it could be cal/mag defs. I already had to start them w/o PH adjusted water as my PH meter is broken, and not adding PH- sounds like a something less the babies have to deal with.

I've been told to start seeds in loose black peat also then transplant to coir...