Proper Decarboxylation of CBD

I was reading something about decarbing CBD the other day and it mentioned that, in order to convert CBDa to CBD, you need to heat it to 280F for 60 to 90 minutes.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong but at that temperature and for that duration, you are going to have converted just about all your THC to CBN.

So, if I want to make capsules that maximize the CBD and the THC, I can't.

I am either going to maximize the THC at 240F for 40 minutes and never even activate the CBD. Or, I am going to go higher and longer and activate the CBD but kill all my THC.

I would really like the effects of both in my pills but it's really more about the CBD. I have to wonder how much THC I'm going to lose.

I do have 2 more plates for my TLC kit so I could run some comparisons on 40 minutes and 90 minutes.

Any comments on this? Anyone else trying to maximize both THC and CBD in your edibles?

Thanks

Thc starts to evaporate at 311*f.

below that there will be minimal burn off.

Maple_Flail said:

Thc starts to evaporate at 311*f.

below that there will be minimal burn off.

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sorry had to find a post i made a few days ago, easier to link then to type out again

Maple_Flail said:

....
The majority of doctors I encounter regarding cannabis as medicine are very intrigued(YMMV). however this may be a fact of living in canada. They want to "catch" up with what the underground has been doing and knows before they start fitting those things into trials and clinical tests.

As new studies are starting to look at different edible "blends" of Raw and decarbed constituents mostly in the mental health field (schizophrenia treatment study with massive doses of (raw)THCA and activated CBD and vice versa)


Now looking at your decarb point and now the amount you mentioned, things are starting to click.. your are hardly even activating all the THC. and barely touching the CBD

Google," Dr Paul Hornby Decarboxylation ", Peak conversion happens just before 311*F.

And I generally go for longer than an hour (i'm making sure all the cbd gets vibrating with as little boil off as possible as it has a similar decarb point ) and I make a Pillow out of tin foil with a parchment paper base, then place that in a ceramic bake dish at the top of the oven. with that method I'm not starting my timer until the internal temp gets to 245*F (simple meat thermo with temp probe works well best 20$ i'v sent for the job) and i don't let the temperature exceed 300*F within the dish the average plateau is around 292*-296* having the vessel at the top of the oven with give the most consistent heat while using the ceramic to shield the bud from oven ramp up.

every single patient i've shared this with has started to use this temp and vague method to manage their edible and they find they are needing to use less as more is getting activated.

Cheers hope this helps

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From my experience, if it goes beyond that 311*f there would be a definite noticeable reduction in effect

It's not evaporating off the THC that I'm concerned with.

At both 240F (THC) and 280F (CBD) no (or very little) THC is going to evaporate. However, at 280F for 60 minutes, all the THC will convert to CBN in that length of time. Yes?

So, it's not about evaporating it off as much as it is converting it from THC to CBN.

And, you are suggesting even a higher temp and a longer time so I have to believe that all the THC will have been converted to CBN by then. Again, Yes?

Thanks

Ringodoggie said:

It's not evaporating off the THC that I'm concerned with.

At both 240F (THC) and 280F (CBD) no (or very little) THC is going to evaporate. However, at 280F for 60 minutes, all the THC will convert to CBN in that length of time. Yes?

So, it's not about evaporating it off as much as it is converting it from THC to CBN.

And, you are suggesting even a higher temp and a longer time so I have to believe that all the THC will have been converted to CBN by then. Again, Yes?

Thanks

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CBN can exist without it being a degradation product of THC, not sure we figured out how the plant does this but. I've seen tests of early week stuf where there is CBN present without any THC (its all in small amounts of THCa at that point)

Given the fact that CBN isn't quite as psychoactive as THC and more psychoactive than CBD, I would assume that the conversion and or boil off of thc to THC D8 and CBN would be the cause of the reduce efficacy of the batches i made that exceeded that 311* temperature.
would be attributed to that conversion.

I'm not sold it being a direct conversion. there may be parts at play but i don't think science has figured that out.

you could always test it, take a gram split it 4 ways take note of what temps you set and what the temps at whatever you are holding to decarb actually get too, put it into a carrier oil

take note of which one has the effect you need, that way science doesn't matter at that point, you've landed close to what your body is looking for.

Self testing is hard (almost impossible) for me. I don't feel hardly any effects from smoking pot. I smoke 5 or 6 pounds a year and my tolerance is so high, I really can't tell from smoking if pot is good or not. Sad but true. LOL

I get a little buzz from eating a gram of rosin (about 750mg of THC) but I can smoke 2 grams of rosin and not really be any different.

So, what I will do is take 5 samples and decarb them differently and run the TLC tests on the resulting samples. That should show THC, CBD and CBN percentages.

Odd that this has not been discussed much in light of all the buzz around CBD these days. My guess is that people are taking what they believe to be CBD when, in fact, it's more CBDa.

Ringodoggie said:

Self testing is hard (almost impossible) for me. I don't feel hardly any effects from smoking pot. I smoke 5 or 6 pounds a year and my tolerance is so high, I really can't tell from smoking if pot is good or not. Sad but true. LOL

I get a little buzz from eating a gram of rosin (about 750mg of THC) but I can smoke 2 grams of rosin and not really be any different.

So, what I will do is take 5 samples and decarb them differently and run the TLC tests on the resulting samples. That should show THC, CBD and CBN percentages.

Odd that this has not been discussed much in light of all the buzz around CBD these days. My guess is that people are taking what they believe to be CBD when, in fact, it's more CBDa.

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Lack of science and rather high cost to testing i'm sure has put a damper on that conversation. 4-5 samples is over 2K testing fees here and you need PPL.

I to some extent feel your pain, my edible tolerance is skyhigh, it wasn't until i started adding cbd that i started to actually notice. and again reintroducing raw cannabinoids it to an activated blend has again yielded results greater than simply higher dose of the same.

I would assume we are close. (maybe?) I'm very much in support of the acid forms being more potent then expected by many (not in psycho activity but in efficacy)

I do intend to get proper testing done with its a medically reasonable price here, also to know more tests on people need to be created. for example i don't think i've found anywhere any gleam of how much Delta11 THC is in your body after your liver finished converting what isn't absorbed, whats that enzymatic rate.. what other enzymatic conversions are going on in our body filters?

If we're restricted to 'educated guesses', I'd probably decarb some weed to what is 'probably' appropriated for optimal THC conversion, and the remaining material for what is 'probably' best for complete CBD conversion, then mix the two.

Actually, I make all my edibles from rosin so all this will have to be translated to rosin from flowers but for now, here's what I'll do.

Decarb the same pot from the same cola at:

240F for 40 minutes (my standard for decarbing flowers for THC)

240F for 90 minutes

290F for 40 minutes

290F for 90 minutes

I can run 4 tests per plate so I can run all 4 of these on one plate. I have 2 plates left so I'll either do the same thing twice to confirm or change the parameters for the next test.

I can also run some tests via the Duquenois/Beam tests although those don't differentiate between CBD/CBG/CBN like the TLC will. But, it might show a degradation of THC as time and temp rise.

Hard to believe no one has done this yet.

I decarb'd some samples last night and I am running the Duquenois and Beam tests tonight. I'll post the results later if I get time.

I went with 5 samples. 240F for 40 and 90 minutes and 290F for 40, 90 and 120 minutes.

I am fully expecting the 120 minute sample to be void (or nearly so) of THC. Kind of hoping so. LOL

Well, I must say, I am not only disappointed, I am shocked and amazed.

Both CBD and THC went up dramatically with both time and temperature.

I really have to wonder if these results are strain specific. I am going to run these exact same tests on Landrace Afghan and see if the THC responds the same way.

I expected the CBD to increase with time and temp based on what I've been reading. However, the results show it increases A LOT.

What surprised me was to see THC doing the same thing. There is considerable more THC on the 290F 120 minute samples than there is on the 240F for 40 minutes.

Both THC and CBD continued to increase with each sample.

I'll post a couple pictures but it's really hard for you to see the dramatic difference that I can see with my naked eye. The camera and lighting just don't capture the true color and gradient.

Pic 1 is the setup showing the time and temp of each dry sample.

Pic 2 is the extract. Amazing color change with time and temp change, Green to brown

Pic 3. Immediate results already show shocking results

Pic 4 and 5 just time passing.

Only 5 pics per post.. LOL Continued...

First 2 pics are CBD in order of the samples.

Second 2 pics are THC

I tried to get the pics to show the dramatic difference but it's so hard with the camera.

So, I sure am hoping that this is strain specific because if it's not, I have been decarbing my pot wrong for 50 years....... LMAO And, so have most of you. LOL

290F for 2 HOURS!!!!!! Showing an increase in THC the entire way????

This has to be strain specific.

I am going to run the TLC tests tomorrow. We'll see if they concur.

Watching with keen interest.

Ringodoggie said:

I was reading something about decarbing CBD the other day and it mentioned that, in order to convert CBDa to CBD, you need to heat it to 280F for 60 to 90 minutes.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong but at that temperature and for that duration, you are going to have converted just about all your THC to CBN.

So, if I want to make capsules that maximize the CBD and the THC, I can't.

I am either going to maximize the THC at 240F for 40 minutes and never even activate the CBD. Or, I am going to go higher and longer and activate the CBD but kill all my THC.

I would really like the effects of both in my pills but it's really more about the CBD. I have to wonder how much THC I'm going to lose.

I do have 2 more plates for my TLC kit so I could run some comparisons on 40 minutes and 90 minutes.

Any comments on this? Anyone else trying to maximize both THC and CBD in your edibles?

Thanks

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That sounds excessive. We decarboxylate at 121C/250F, and it takes only around 30 minutes for everything.

Ringodoggie said:

Well, I must say, I am not only disappointed, I am shocked and amazed.

Both CBD and THC went up dramatically with both time and temperature.

I really have to wonder if these results are strain specific. I am going to run these exact same tests on Landrace Afghan and see if the THC responds the same way.

I expected the CBD to increase with time and temp based on what I've been reading. However, the results show it increases A LOT.

What surprised me was to see THC doing the same thing. There is considerable more THC on the 290F 120 minute samples than there is on the 240F for 40 minutes.

Both THC and CBD continued to increase with each sample.

I'll post a couple pictures but it's really hard for you to see the dramatic difference that I can see with my naked eye. The camera and lighting just don't capture the true color and gradient.

Pic 1 is the setup showing the time and temp of each dry sample.

Pic 2 is the extract. Amazing color change with time and temp change, Green to brown

Pic 3. Immediate results already show shocking results

Pic 4 and 5 just time passing.

Click to expand...

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar.

Thank you for vindicating my method can't wait for TLC test.

The strain specificness would likely come down to the average trichome size, so afghani's with their large trichomes would likely be those kinda out lyers

Gray Wolf said:

That sounds excessive. We decarboxylate at 121C/250F, and it takes only around 30 minutes for everything.

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2 questions....

1. Are you including a 1:1 CBD/THC strain in that statement or always high THC, low CBD?

2. Have you ever tested for potency after decarbing to determine if your time and temp were actually optimal?

It would be great if someone with a 1:1 strain and the ability to run these tests would duplicate my tests to confirm or deny the results.

Here is another patent showing CBD decarbing done at times and temperatures that we currently feel are excessive.

(CBDA) in Hemp Oil, which can start with virgin C02 extracted hemp oil that has been extracted from the whole plant. The virgin C02 extracted hemp oil generally has large amounts of cannabidiolic acid (CBDA), the precursor to cannabidiol (CBD). The virgin hemp oil can be decarboxylated by heating to about 150° C, e.g., to a temperature in the range of 140° C to 160° C between 10 - 18 hours, to convert the CBDA to CBD. This procedure can be carried out in a feed tank equipped with a heat transfer oil filled jacket and a venting port to prevent pressure from building up in the vessel.


https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2016004410A1/en

I believe it may be time to re-evaluate the way we have been decarbing for our entire lives. LOL

EDIT:

Maple_Flail said:

Phase change has an effect on decarb properties. if it had been Decarb prior to extraction it would have taken less time as there would be more solid making space for the heated air to penetrate everything.

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OK, that makes sense. We'll see if we can find a patent where they use flowers vs oil. Still, my tests were done with fowers and show the same pattern of results.

Ringodoggie said:

2 questions....

1. Are you including a 1:1 CBD/THC strain in that statement or always high THC, low CBD?

2. Have you ever tested for potency after decarbing to determine if your time and temp were actually optimal?

It would be great if someone with a 1:1 strain and the ability to run these tests would duplicate my tests to confirm or deny the results.

Click to expand...

I have a couple thoughts to add to this.

How many people monitor the actual temperature near the bud? anecdotally, it appears only the minority of people decarbing seem to be looking at that, again i could be wrong its all perception on this one.

I see light bulbs go off in many patients when i make the comparison to cooking meats like chicken, If you are not super comfortable in the kitchen are you about to take the look of the meat for granted when it could get your sick?

again it comes back to the same reasoning, everyone's oven of method of decarb slightlys atleast varys by noticeable amounts when you take a large sample size.

as to the ~1:~1 stuff(hard to find a dead on 1:1), in my area(it may be different in other provinces), for the most part Lp's are the only ones actually testing for levels. and getting from them adds a few things to the balance. Docter gateway, "dose" gateway, and "stock" gateway.

there are other environmental aspects so to speak that come into IMHO very slight effect, Elevation so to speak.

we know water is affected by a certain point. we don't know exactly how the acids and oils react under similar situations if the effect is less or greater who really knows. it also has an effect on how that person is processing as a whole IE sealed vessel Vs open sheet.

also, would like to state, even before this thread. The want to prove these things isn't the hindering factor right now, atleast for me. The costs and requirements are too large right now for the average person to do this (in canada, again caveat canada #derp) 57% of the cost of these tests is licensing fees going to the government for testing a "restricted" substance. So basic Thc/CBD.. 250+taxes, you want extended cannabinoid testing, another 250+tax on top, Oh you want to know your terps, again another 250+tax, oh you want the sequestered terps? sorry that will be another 250+tax on and BTW we have to put your organically grown medicine that you grew yourself? (its forbidden to test something you didn't grow without a grow license) we have to do this bs test you cannot opt out of and base fee is 178$+taxes... prices will drop atleast 50% when it is rescheduled in this country

not even getting into the amount of the sample these so called labs ask for to actually testing your crap and triple checking it because they are not very careful when they do it.

Ringodoggie said:

Here is another patent showing CBD decarbing done at times and temperatures that we currently feel are excessive.

(CBDA) in Hemp Oil, which can start with virgin C02 extracted hemp oil that has been extracted from the whole plant. The virgin C02 extracted hemp oil generally has large amounts of cannabidiolic acid (CBDA), the precursor to cannabidiol (CBD). The virgin hemp oil can be decarboxylated by heating to about 150° C, e.g., to a temperature in the range of 140° C to 160° C between 10 - 18 hours, to convert the CBDA to CBD. This procedure can be carried out in a feed tank equipped with a heat transfer oil filled jacket and a venting port to prevent pressure from building up in the vessel.


https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2016004410A1/en

I believe it may be time to re-evaluate the way we have been decarbing for our entire lives. LOL

Click to expand...

Phase change has an effect on decarb properties. if it had been Decarb prior to extraction it would have taken less time as there would be more solid making space for the heated air to penetrate everything.