Neem v Root Aphids

ozzieAI · Mar 24, 2013

72 Hours

72 Hours

well things are progressing very well indeed, the plants are growing well again, there is no signs of further damage and the pots are ready for another water.

Using neem as a drench is problematic and should only be used for foliar.

this is not so, neem oil is an excellent soil conditioner and an effective systemic insecticide: http://www.discoverneem.com/neem-oil-insecticide.html

again the blurb from where i buy my neem...

Neem Oil has been used as a fertiliser and wetter sticker for centuries. Our Neem Plant Spray is pure Neem Oil mixed with an organic emusifier enabling it to be mixed with water or fertilisers. It is an excellent adjuvant for fertiliser or as a stand alone product. Ideal as a floliar to make plants shine, as a soil drench for soil conditioning or as a fertiliser enhancer wetter sticker. The Japanese include our neem in their fertilisers via dripper at a rate of 2 mL per litre as they have done for many many years. BFA Registered.

also here is a good article: http://www.neemuses.com/neem_articles.php#10

and another:
http://www.mycsa.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Neem-Oil-Specs.pdf

the more i research and use neem oil the more i find...

Crooked8 · Mar 24, 2013

Now theres three of us saying that neem shouldnt be fed into the medium. Just sayin.....i can find a link somewhere to almost anything. People have told me stuff was good when it was bad numsayin? If its such a great soil conditioner many people would use it this way. Im still unsure about it but id still never try it. I just feel like it has to cause lockout.

ozzieAI · Mar 25, 2013

Crooked8 said:
Now theres three of us saying that neem shouldnt be fed into the medium. Just sayin.....i can find a link somewhere to almost anything. People have told me stuff was good when it was bad numsayin? If its such a great soil conditioner many people would use it this way. Im still unsure about it but id still never try it. I just feel like it has to cause lockout.

i hear ya crooked but i am not here to convince anyone but simply to document my experiences. lets face it how does what you do affect me and visa versa?...the main motivation for this thread is 2 fold...one is education through documenting my experiences and secondly raise awareness of alternatives to using often expensive and hazardous products to control pests etc.

and my experience has been that neem is a great soil conditioner, works well on pests due to it's systemic properties and has (so far) smashed a RA problem within 3 days....

just saying these are MY experiences...

the only question i ask is...have you or anyone else tried it?

RockyMountainHi · Mar 25, 2013

ozzieAI said:
personally i see no reason why neem couldn't be effective against RA...

As I recall, you have never seen a root aphid, you assume you have R/A's because of the condition of your garden, but you insist only you have the key to a pest you have never seen in the flesh - so to speak.

While your neem treatments may be effective aginst the pest you have - is it positivly R/A's or something else?

I'm betting you may have multiple pests and the neem is knocking down one - only to make more room for the R/A's

Pictures of this miracle - and the pests, please!

From my experience - R/A's stress the plants hardest early in flower - my plants tend to do well in veg - or did when the battle was being waged

ozzie,, are you in Australia? (I see you have several posts in Australian threads) - I posted about R/A's in another thread and was told R/A's are not an issues down under.

Crooked8 · Mar 25, 2013

Before and after photos wouldve been awesome. If the neem really does work this way thats tits. I hope your ra issues are in fact erradicated. I must say though, ive thought they were gone before, many times. Well have to wait a while to see if they come back. Some of them are pretty easily seen and others are so tiny. They are resilient little bitches.

ozzieAI · Mar 25, 2013

RockyMountainHi;5677476]As I recall, you have never seen a root aphid, you assume you have R/A's because of the condition of your garden, but you insist only you have the key to a pest you have never seen in the flesh - so to speak.

While your neem treatments may be effective aginst the pest you have - is it positivly R/A's or something else?

okay to be clear: i have positively identified root aphids in my system both in the soil and flyers.

i spent considerable time, $$$ and effort fighting what i initially thought to be massive nute issues on plants that show all the classic RA indicators.

i have examined the remains of my damaged plants to see multiple aphids swimming in the water rinsing the soil from the root ball..often coming out the size of an egg or golf ball from a 200 mm pot

I'm betting you may have multiple pests and the neem is knocking down one - only to make more room for the R/A's

honestly since using 5 mls/litre of neem i have got rid of fungus gnats and syhplids (spelling) and the neem helps keep the mites in check but there are always a few present but not enough to do anymore than spray a little neem on...

Pictures of this miracle - and the pests, please!

sorry no miracle here....this shit has been happening for hundreds if not thousands of years...

yes it would be nice to have pics and for the last 1/2 hour i have been trying to get a clear picture of flyers on my insect sticky trap...but to no avail...but my general response to this query is why not try it for yourself...seeing is believing and no better way than experiencing it first hand...

From my experience - R/A's stress the plants hardest early in flower - my plants tend to do well in veg - or did when the battle was being waged

RA hit my indoor vegging room, outside flowering my indoor pests disappear within a week when the predator outdoor bugs come for lunch this includes RA...

ozzie,, are you in Australia? (I see you have several posts in Australian threads) - I posted about R/A's in another thread and was told R/A's are not an issues down under.

i have got 20+ years growing in OZ experience, i have faced off on many and varied bugs, diseases, afflictions, accidents and acts of god...but never in previous experience have i seen RA...

just found this: http://www.ar37.com.au/assets/Uploads/PGG-Wrightson-Seeds-Research-PaperRoot-Aphid.pdf

i have thought of doing a side/side comparison for neem/non neem treat plants...might see if i can get a better camera for the exercise...

I hope your ra issues are in fact erradicated. I must say though, ive thought they were gone before, many times. Well have to wait a while to see if they come back. Some of them are pretty easily seen and others are so tiny. They are resilient little bitches.

i fully expect them to come back...suspect that given my environment that i may never fully get rid of them...the next lot of soil lined up for the next round does/did have RA in it and expect my next round to be similar but i will treat with neem earlier at the strong 12ml/litre so the RA can't take hold. might leave a couple un-neemed to give some prospective...

ozzieAI · Mar 25, 2013

94 Hours

94 Hours

well it's been 4 days now and the plants are back to normal growth rates and look strong and healthy...

yerboyblue · Mar 26, 2013

Are you in flower or in veg? If in veg it wouldn't take much to reestablish healthy growth like you said. Hell, the only time I have seen RA damage in veg is with severely root bound plants. If it's in flower and has only been 4 or 5 days, you aren't out of the woods yet man.

ozzieAI · Mar 26, 2013

yerboyblue said:
Are you in flower or in veg? If in veg it wouldn't take much to reestablish healthy growth like you said. Hell, the only time I have seen RA damage in veg is with severely root bound plants. If it's in flower and has only been 4 or 5 days, you aren't out of the woods yet man.

RA only seem to attack my vegging plants indoors, flowering outdoors the RA get hammered and aren't an issue for during flower.

Neo 420 · Mar 26, 2013

ozzieAI said:
RA only seem to attack my vegging plants indoors, flowering outdoors the RA get hammered and aren't an issue for during flower.

They are probably by preyed on by beneficial insects....

ozzieAI · Mar 26, 2013

Neo 420 said:
They are probably by preyed on by beneficial insects....

absolutely but using that soil indoors doesn't stop the RA unfortunately... there is something i am missing here????

RockyMountainHi · Mar 26, 2013

ozzieAI said:
... there is something i am missing here????

We, or I think so, but you have a different perspective.

It is doubtful both sides of the debate are right.
I don't think we are betting aginst you, but smart money is with your R/A's

I would use at least 2 pronged attack - probably 3. Depending on the grow medium being used.

I can't count the times I thought I fixed this issue only to get my ass bit again and again. And again.....

Let just one itty bitty bastard survive and it begins again.

ozzieAI · Mar 26, 2013

RockyMountainHi said:
We, or I think so, but you have a different perspective.

It is doubtful both sides of the debate are right.
I don't think we are betting aginst you, but smart money is with your R/A's

I would use at least 2 pronged attack - probably 3. Depending on the grow medium being used.

I can't count the times I thought I fixed this issue only to get my ass bit again and again. And again.....

Let just one itty bitty bastard survive and it begins again.

i keep saying i fully expect RA to return due to my soil system being contaminated with them. i would love to know what is killing outdoors and why these beneficial bugs/microbes don't work indoors.

i will work out what cycle is best to super dose with neem and will start with every 3 weeks increasing the frequency if 3 weeks is too long.

the main reasons for wanting to use neem is that it is organic, it's relatively cheap and easily accessible.

thanks for your input RMH

yerboyblue · Mar 26, 2013

ozzieAI said:
RA only seem to attack my vegging plants indoors, flowering outdoors the RA get hammered and aren't an issue for during flower.

Ya, outdoors they have natural predators like other poster said. I also suspect our plants aren't their favorite meal, but if there's nothing else close by then they go nuts. I think they find something else to munch once you go outdoors with them, especially if you use any kind of treatment to deter them. Easier for them to run instead of ride out any poisons.
I find it interesting that you are having trouble with them with vegging plants. Usually plants in veg grow roots faster than they can eat them, hence why most people don't know they have them until it's too late. You must have a huge amount of RA or something.
No wonder why you are having so much success with neem as an RA treatment. It will knock them back to some extent but hardly erradicate them. All you need to do in veg to restore health is knock them down so the plant can grow some new roots. You can still have many RA in this case, just not as many as before. I've also noticed that in flower, you don't have to have that many RA to destroy plants. I can only find a few immature ones from time to time in flower, and the leaves will still be dropping. So I guess basically I am saying they can be real hard to spot, so you could easily think they are completely gone.

ozzieAI · Mar 29, 2013

YBB you have summed up the situation quite well...and i know that i have not eradicated the RA but i have stopped the ones in my current grow in their tracks...

the plants are back to the usual growing rate and looking sensational..

i took my usual cuttings today to maintain my perpetual grow and will set up a side/side experiment to see if there is any difference between plants that get fed neem via the soil and those that do not.

Crooked8 · Mar 31, 2013

hows the ra situation? Think its eradicated? best of luck

ozzieAI · Mar 31, 2013

Crooked8 said:
hows the ra situation? Think its eradicated? best of luck

NO i don't think it's eradicated...please read previous posts...at no time do i say i have eradicated the RA...i say dealt a severe blow to the current population in my current pots...future pots will have RA in them...

current plants are doing very well...thanks for asking...man i got to post some pics...

Crooked8 · Mar 31, 2013

I was just wondering if maybe you got lucky. I think finding i way to not have them in future pots would help a lot. Otherwise your yield will always suffer along with quality.

ozzieAI · Mar 31, 2013

Crooked8 said:
I was just wondering if maybe you got lucky. I think finding i way to not have them in future pots would help a lot. Otherwise your yield will always suffer along with quality.

i have just found a source of neem cake down under and plan to fortify my organic soil with it in the near future in an attempt to rid myself of RA...but if the neem drench works like it does now then i will be happy.

having spent far too much time studying the organic threads i envy those who can have access to all ingredients to achieve a dynamic result but here i am lucky to access a portion of my preferred organic amendments...shit it took me months to find neem cake...crab meal is unheard of here and the cost of getting it and many other ingredients is prohibitive.

luck had very little to do with my results...i had been using this method for over a year now...just not at the rate i used in this experiment...

back to worms and bacteria for me...

ozzieAI · Apr 6, 2013

finally got access to a camera...pics on post 1

Neem v Root Aphids

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