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Commercial outdoor organic soil mixes for 2016
- Thread starter TheOutlawTree
- Start date
TheOutlawTree
Active member
I watched that video milky- It does in fact look like great compost, i was also not impressed by the 'looks' of the malibu as i've got a bag sitting here with me now. However the test's do get me thinking about it, and i'm not qualified just yet with knowledge to be able to have a big opinion on it. As of now i like your idea milky of cutting the compost with topsoil or peat to get k down if need be.
Speaking of test's- Has anyone ever done any test's on different casting brands? If i wanted to send in some samples of castings for nutrient values would the standard 25$ test from logan labs be good enough or should i get the sat. paste as well? I keep hearing how shitty unco castings are from everyone, but i would really like to get test's comparing it with 'big worm' from roots organics, as well as that rocky mountain worm farm in CO. I have been looking for worm farms here in ca that are sort of unknown in hopes i could score some good shit but its tough. As far as appearance goes- I've always thought the unco castings 'looked' really good, well really good compared to something like vermiworm brand.
Speaking of test's- Has anyone ever done any test's on different casting brands? If i wanted to send in some samples of castings for nutrient values would the standard 25$ test from logan labs be good enough or should i get the sat. paste as well? I keep hearing how shitty unco castings are from everyone, but i would really like to get test's comparing it with 'big worm' from roots organics, as well as that rocky mountain worm farm in CO. I have been looking for worm farms here in ca that are sort of unknown in hopes i could score some good shit but its tough. As far as appearance goes- I've always thought the unco castings 'looked' really good, well really good compared to something like vermiworm brand.
with any compost you want to know some extra info beyond the logan basic test. You definitely want to know the C:N ratio and you want to know what form the N is...you want organic N, not nitrate.
I actually like the Penn State compost analysis report better. It tells you lbs of elements per yard
Saturated paste should be worthless for ewc cause it should all be available but not soluble. Fot example, worm power ewc has an ec of 0.16...so very low levels of soluble nutrients
And worms are not magic...food source matters. The higher the value you feed them the higher value the poop will be
Not sure if that is true for microbe numbers and quality though
Anyways I have a worm power analysis if you wanna run unco. Could use that for comparison
I actually like the Penn State compost analysis report better. It tells you lbs of elements per yard
Saturated paste should be worthless for ewc cause it should all be available but not soluble. Fot example, worm power ewc has an ec of 0.16...so very low levels of soluble nutrients
And worms are not magic...food source matters. The higher the value you feed them the higher value the poop will be
Not sure if that is true for microbe numbers and quality though
Anyways I have a worm power analysis if you wanna run unco. Could use that for comparison
GoonSaibot
Member
i used rare earth's chicken compost last year and oly mountain fish compost this year. I did have them mix in a tote of Malibu compost though. If you are going with rare earth don't wait until the last minute, they were pretty backed up last year i think
getting my old dirt tested in january. I used Fruit Growers Lab last year i think, should i use Logan this time?
R
Robrites
I use Logan Labs but there is probably something to be said for staying consistent and using Fruit Growers again.
TheOutlawTree
Active member
Sounds good milky- I will head out and pick up some unco castings next chance i get to send in for tests. I may even have enough left in the garage for sending in. I have a bag of vermi-worm brand in there as well so ill send that out too.
Lightweight mixes
Lightweight mixes
Shcrews, I'd go FGL again for easy year to year comparison. I wonder if they factor in weight for their recommendations?
Leadsled, all commercially available composts I've had analysed show excess P & K. The major differences are inputs and consistency. I.e. municipal sources are going to have wood chunks and grass from peoples yards treated with roundup. Fish inputs might put the P higher than chicken shit if they include the bones. Also, why the ad hominem? Keep it classy.
Outlaw, worm castings are worth the money. Analysis will show better Albrecht ratios than most, if not practically all composts. For this reason I used castings instead of compost in my current indoor mix:
Makes about 1 cubic yard
12 cu ft peat
4 cu ft castings
4 cu ft pumice
4 cu ft perlite
2.66 cu ft biochar
10 lbs bone meal
10 lbs crab meal
5 lbs gypsum
5 lbs dolomite
5 lbs rock phosphate
5 lbs azomite
Here is the analysis, I cut out the upper labels because of names and brands. In left to right order are Keystone BioAg's potting mix, My mix, and the peat used in that mix:
A few things to consider when using light weight mixes like this:
The first grow went well, but there was eventually a potassium deficiency so I think less Ca/Mg and about 5%K would have been better. 2nd and 3rd grows are showing Ca deficiencies now. Bottom line is that the mix is so light and with the majority of it being organic matter it won't hold as many cations as a clay based soil.
Micronutrients aren't sufficient with the base mix. You either have to add them yourself in sulfate form or find a mixing place that willing to do it with a sprayer. Call around in your area and talk to the soil places. If they won't do it, download the ideal soil or look up how to calculate micro additions from the info on a soil test. Often it will mean adding a couple grams of one element/yard of soil.
I use more water than I'd like. This mix is so light that plants rip through it and suck it dry very quickly.
All in all this mix is not worth the results it provided. I paid $121/yard minus the cost of the biochar which I brought in myself to the mixing place and that might put the price closer to $150.
If I could do it over I'd use more clay in the mix for better cation holding capacity, better water retention, and cost. The main problem with this is that mixing places aren't willing to have you bring in someone else's topsoil. They have all the raw material on their yard that they want you to pay for. An other option if having them find a clay source or something like zeolite and pay them to ship it in.
A word of caution: the analysis and materials used in the above mix will vary slightly. For example one peat analysis showed a 10% difference in Ca base saturation from an other. Less dolomite or gypsum would be fine and definitely less bone meal and soft rock phosphate (current findings show higher phosphorus prevents micronutrient uptake). I made this soil a year ago before I understood phosphorus very well.
Lightweight mixes
Shcrews, I'd go FGL again for easy year to year comparison. I wonder if they factor in weight for their recommendations?
Leadsled, all commercially available composts I've had analysed show excess P & K. The major differences are inputs and consistency. I.e. municipal sources are going to have wood chunks and grass from peoples yards treated with roundup. Fish inputs might put the P higher than chicken shit if they include the bones. Also, why the ad hominem? Keep it classy.
Outlaw, worm castings are worth the money. Analysis will show better Albrecht ratios than most, if not practically all composts. For this reason I used castings instead of compost in my current indoor mix:
Makes about 1 cubic yard
12 cu ft peat
4 cu ft castings
4 cu ft pumice
4 cu ft perlite
2.66 cu ft biochar
10 lbs bone meal
10 lbs crab meal
5 lbs gypsum
5 lbs dolomite
5 lbs rock phosphate
5 lbs azomite
Here is the analysis, I cut out the upper labels because of names and brands. In left to right order are Keystone BioAg's potting mix, My mix, and the peat used in that mix:
A few things to consider when using light weight mixes like this:
The first grow went well, but there was eventually a potassium deficiency so I think less Ca/Mg and about 5%K would have been better. 2nd and 3rd grows are showing Ca deficiencies now. Bottom line is that the mix is so light and with the majority of it being organic matter it won't hold as many cations as a clay based soil.
Micronutrients aren't sufficient with the base mix. You either have to add them yourself in sulfate form or find a mixing place that willing to do it with a sprayer. Call around in your area and talk to the soil places. If they won't do it, download the ideal soil or look up how to calculate micro additions from the info on a soil test. Often it will mean adding a couple grams of one element/yard of soil.
I use more water than I'd like. This mix is so light that plants rip through it and suck it dry very quickly.
All in all this mix is not worth the results it provided. I paid $121/yard minus the cost of the biochar which I brought in myself to the mixing place and that might put the price closer to $150.
If I could do it over I'd use more clay in the mix for better cation holding capacity, better water retention, and cost. The main problem with this is that mixing places aren't willing to have you bring in someone else's topsoil. They have all the raw material on their yard that they want you to pay for. An other option if having them find a clay source or something like zeolite and pay them to ship it in.
A word of caution: the analysis and materials used in the above mix will vary slightly. For example one peat analysis showed a 10% difference in Ca base saturation from an other. Less dolomite or gypsum would be fine and definitely less bone meal and soft rock phosphate (current findings show higher phosphorus prevents micronutrient uptake). I made this soil a year ago before I understood phosphorus very well.
A yard ot worm power has:
19.5 lbs N, of which only 0.1 is ammonical or nitrate
201 lbs of carbon
7.27 lbs of P
18.57 lbs K
19.95 lbs Ca
4.83 lbs Mg
Better than compost...yes. worth thr cost ?
When you break it down like this you ca n use it as a K amendment and get pretty precise ratios
19.5 lbs N, of which only 0.1 is ammonical or nitrate
201 lbs of carbon
7.27 lbs of P
18.57 lbs K
19.95 lbs Ca
4.83 lbs Mg
Better than compost...yes. worth thr cost ?
When you break it down like this you ca n use it as a K amendment and get pretty precise ratios
TheOutlawTree
Active member
Orechron- Thank's for that great soil recipe.
Now what if i were to just have 1/3 of my mix worm castings in something like orechrons, wouldn't that make the cation holding capacity and water retention better? I Understand this is not really the most cost effective. The only way i would even think about doing that is if something like unco brand castings could be used. I was quoted 22k for 84 yards delivered. The remaining 16 yards could be oly mountain or some other compost- and i would think that the K would be low enough. I was also quoted 6.2k for just over 100 yards of Alaska Peat brand peat moss delivered. I'm going to try and send out some test's on the unco castings next week.
I am considering mixing all of this myself- i know it sounds crazy, but its possible. It would probably take me 2 weeks of backbreaking work, but its possible. Its alot easier than building the pyramids in egypt my whole life- thank god i wasnt born in that time period. I'm not sure what the yard charges for mixing but my guess is 40$ a yard or so? Thats 12k i could save on a 300yard order. The other issue is that by ordering from a yard i have to use what they have in stock already like orechron says.
Now what if i were to just have 1/3 of my mix worm castings in something like orechrons, wouldn't that make the cation holding capacity and water retention better? I Understand this is not really the most cost effective. The only way i would even think about doing that is if something like unco brand castings could be used. I was quoted 22k for 84 yards delivered. The remaining 16 yards could be oly mountain or some other compost- and i would think that the K would be low enough. I was also quoted 6.2k for just over 100 yards of Alaska Peat brand peat moss delivered. I'm going to try and send out some test's on the unco castings next week.
I am considering mixing all of this myself- i know it sounds crazy, but its possible. It would probably take me 2 weeks of backbreaking work, but its possible. Its alot easier than building the pyramids in egypt my whole life- thank god i wasnt born in that time period. I'm not sure what the yard charges for mixing but my guess is 40$ a yard or so? Thats 12k i could save on a 300yard order. The other issue is that by ordering from a yard i have to use what they have in stock already like orechron says.
Yeah I'm way over that. It's the headache of my current run. Saw a 2000ppm spike after a catawater dose. Stupid choice, I know what the shit does but I was thinking it was going to also help with the other imbalances. With Albion/P-mag + extra epsom and Calcium silicate foliars my pH still got up to 6.7. We'll see what happens.
You prob don't need to have castings be 1/3 of your mix. I think you'll probably still see great results @20%.
Without an analysis on the castings plus the recent one for the compost I can't be sure how your end product would test out. Like Milky said castings are better but are still high in the two main things that will cause you trouble.
When you find a place let us know what the material list looks like.
MuricanWeedwolf
Member
Y'all are wasting your money buying commercial bagged soil IMHO.
I suggest finding a good local source of organic potting soil, preferably someone who makes their own (plant-based) compost and worm castings. Don't be skeptical if it doesn't contain perlite, scientific studies have found that wood chips perform exactly like perlite in soil, at least in the short term (< 1 year).
It should cost around half what you're paying for bagged mix and should work as good as, if not better than, bagged mixes.
...and while you're at it, get your EWC from the same local source
I suggest finding a good local source of organic potting soil, preferably someone who makes their own (plant-based) compost and worm castings. Don't be skeptical if it doesn't contain perlite, scientific studies have found that wood chips perform exactly like perlite in soil, at least in the short term (< 1 year).
It should cost around half what you're paying for bagged mix and should work as good as, if not better than, bagged mixes.
...and while you're at it, get your EWC from the same local source
Bagged soils can get expensive but many commercial mixes are not.
The only thing that perlite has in common with wood chips is aeration. I was briefly thinking about subbing chips for perlite one year but didn't because wood is going to start to decompose (this uses up N in the soil) and perlite won't. Would've been much cheaper but there was no way to know how much N to put in to satisfy plant growth and that much decomposition at the same time.
The only thing that perlite has in common with wood chips is aeration. I was briefly thinking about subbing chips for perlite one year but didn't because wood is going to start to decompose (this uses up N in the soil) and perlite won't. Would've been much cheaper but there was no way to know how much N to put in to satisfy plant growth and that much decomposition at the same time.
MuricanWeedwolf
Member
Actually Pine wood chips (PWC) have equivalent porosity too, which means they also hold water like perlite too. It also improves the permeability of water through a soil much like perlite does. Is there anything else perlite does?
As far as the nitrogen issue goes, it is minor. Simply feed the detritivores; either mix in about 10% extra N fert in hot soil or use a full time feeding schedule (no breaks/flushing) during veg. The N tie up shouldn't be an issue during flowering but you might want to use a foliar if you're doing heavy defoliation (or just defoliate properly).
Just be sure to correct pH, if necessary. My soil guy adds some lime to his mix but not everyone will.
