DWC Bubbler Ph and EC inreasing problem!

SOLUTION

If your dwc bubbler is increasing in ph and ec is increasing and you just can't figure out why then this might be the solution for you (it worked for me!):

KEEP ADDING PH DOWN TO MAINTAIN PH AT 5.5.

DO NOT LET IT BE GREATER THAN 6.3 OR LESS THAN 5.2, that will cause nutrient lookout. Good luck

PROOF:

Well the proof has not been confirmed so its not really proof. Anyways...

I use ph down with 38% nitric acid, the rest is probably water, the ph down is made for plants in veg. Since the ph down is specifically for plants in veg, I believe my plants are consuming the nitric acid thus removing it from the reservoir, therefore increasing ph.

By adding more nitric acid every few hours the ph is kept down at 5.5.

If my proof is correct then the problem with constantly adding more ph down should be solved by adding a ph down the plants cannot consume, altough doing so will most likely kill the plant xD

Strain of Mj? Arjans Ultra Haze #2, White Rhino, White Widow and Sour Jack
Hydroponic or soil? Hydroponics (dwc bubbler)
From seed or clone? seed
Age of plants in question? 2 weeks
What stage (Veg/Flower; how many days into)? Pre-Veg 2 weeks
Medium (Soil, Rockwool, Hydroton etc.)? Water
Container/Pot size? 1gal
Have they been transplanted, if so how long ago? No.
If soil, composition ratios (peat moss, perilite, vermiculite etc.)? No.
Water runoff Ph? 7.5
Nutrients added? 4ml Rhizotonic, 1 drop Micro, 2 drops Grow, 1 drop bloom and some Ph (Grow) down.
Ratios of nutrients (N% P% K%)? Uknown
Feeding schedule? Weekly
When were they last fed/watered? 1 day ago.
How are you determining when to feed/water (weight, wilting, etc.)? Water level and EC and PH value.
Tap/RO/Distilled water? Tap water.
Ph before and after adding nutrients? Before 8.1. After rhizotonic, nutrients and ph down it is 5.5.
Is your Ph equipment properly calibrated? Yes.
Light intensity/Age of bulb/Wattage? 60w Fluorescent lighting (Cool white + Warm white)
Distance to the canopy? 20cm
Temps at canopy? 28 celsius / 82 fahrenheit.
Temps at root zone or reservoir? 20 celsius / 68 fahrenheit.
Day/Night temps (Min.-Max.)? 22 - 28 celsius / 70 fahrenheit - 82 fahrenheit.
Current air flow (CFM)? 10m3 (Small clone box. Not much air flow needed.)
Is there air blowing directly onto plant? Yes.
Using CO2? No.
Relative humidity? 40%
Growing technique (Scrog, Sog, Supercropping etc.)? Standard.
Has plant recently been pruned, clones taken, fimmed or pinched? no
Pests? No.
Chemicals used to eradicate? No.
If so,When? No.

HERES THE SETUP

4 seedlings in one 1 gallon dwc bubbler, their all in empty netpots with a round plastic circle on the top of the netpot (the seedlings sit in the middle of this circle).

HERES THE PROBLEM

ph in: 5.5 ec in: 0.30 / ppm: 210

12 hours later....

ph out: 7.5 ec out: 35 / ppm: 245

The problem is not root rot. Its been confirmed.

The problem is ph increasing and ec / ppm increasing.

This is causing leaves (starting from bottomw going up to the top!) to go yellow/rust colored and then die and fall off.

I think the problem is the tap water and some reaction going on when i am letting it sit for 24 hours.

MY SOLUTIONS
Fill my 100 liter / 25 gallon reservoir with tap water (ph 8.3 ec 20 / ppm 150)
Place a pump in it to circulate the water.
Place lid on loosely so a little air can circulate.
Let stand for 24hours in dark cool place.

24 hours later....

ph: 8.0 ec: 20 / ppm: 150

so the ph decreased...okay.

When mixing nutes: Empty and rinse dwc bubbler, netpots, roots and lid with ph 5.5 water.
Fill with reservoir water (ph 8 ec: 20 / ppm 150).
Add 4ml Rhizotonic. (This makes ph go up to about 9 sometimes 10, very alkaline)
Mix Micro, Grow and Bloom nutes in 3 individual plastic glasses reservoir water.
Add all nutes to 1 glass.
Add nutes to dwc bubbler until ec: 23 / ppm 161.
Mix ph Down (Grow) in one glass with reservoir water
Add ph down until ph: 5.5

After ph down is added the dwc bubbler is ph: 5.5 ec: 0.25 /ppm: 175.



I just checked the values of the above mix 6 hours later and it was ph: 7.5.

I discovered this problem 2 weeks ago and by then i had bloomed 8 girls for 2 months and during the blooming 3 girls had died for unknown reasons (the above problem).

So please help me, i dont want to loose my new batch of seedlings!

I think the problem has something to do with Calcium evporating or mixing with the water and making the water alkaline. Or it has something to do with the air input into my dwc bubbler.

Please help

A couple things caught my eye on first read...

Nutrients added? 4ml Rhizotonic, 1 drop Micro, 2 drops Grow, 1 drop bloom and some Ph (Grow) down.

Click to expand...

Why the rizzo and why so little nutes ?

Mix Micro, Grow and Bloom nutes in 3 individual plastic glasses reservoir water.
Add all nutes to 1 glass.
Add nutes to dwc bubbler until ec: 23 / ppm 161.

Click to expand...

That would be ok IF you were actually mixing any gh nutes to speak of, except for the part where you dumped all three glasses together into one glass which would be a very bad move indeed, but anyway I'm suprised they're alive after two weeks of such mal-nutrition and no wonder the rest of the plants died.

ditto 10k,

Rhizotonic is one of the few potions I use, however it does pop up in the Infirmary often ... if you have any problems, do not use it.

Likewise, NEVER [sorry for shouting] mix A/B/whatever nutrients together under any circumstances ... only ever directly add to the main diluted nutrient solution... they are kept apart in different bottles because in concentrated form they 'fight' [once they have 'fought' some compounds will be different or missing, others may form, all terminal news for your babies.

Thanks for the insight guys.

What types of problems have you heard of with rhizo? Ph problems? Since ive always had an eye on that bottle since i bought it a few weeks ago... it is rather alkaline and so it might be the one causing the problems.

I'll stop mixing the nutes together with each other. Instead i'll add them independantly (not in pure form but mixed in water) to the dwc bubbler.

I'll stop using rhizo aswell. What other root stimulant do you recomend? For hydroponics.

I will report back with the results in 2 days.

hey chaos! you don't like rizzo? i was thinking about using it! do you recommend not using it and why?

bron2k said:

hey chaos! you don't like rizzo? i was thinking about using it! do you recommend not using it and why?

Click to expand...

Rhizotonic and Cannazym are both excellent IMO, but, if you look through Cannabis Infirmary and Coco sections, you see quite a few people with problems, often with seedlings, where, IMO, people are trying too hard... killing with love ... Rhizo is great, but I wait till the plant is strong and established, likewise with Rhizotonic ... also, many of the problems I read involve people who are giving Rhiz or Cannazym in quite high concentrations compared to the basic A+B, when, plants grow just great without it. You hardly ever see anybody reporting problems with just A+B & correct pH ... or is it never ?

Also.. Mr xxxskunkxxx ... thinking about it, you are being very careful [always good] checking your system, iirc a lot of issues with yoyo-ing pH are from bubblers, sorry, I dont know what it is that causes it, [maybe, like temperature, it accelerates things] pH & those strange ion things are a bit of a black art to me, I hope you get it sorted, make sure your water temps do not go above 23 or 24 BTW... insulate the pots if you have to.

Rhizotonic is not the problem!

Rhizotonic is not the problem!

Here are the results:

PH in: 5.5 ec in: 0.25 / ppm: 175

4 hours later...

PH out: 7.1 ec out: 0.27 / ppm: 189

This is causing leaves (starting from bottom and then going up!) to go yellow/rust colored and then die and fall off.

There was no Rhizotonic added to the dwc bubbler.

I rinsed out the dwc bubbler, netpots, roots and lid with ph 5.5 water (without additives except ph down (grow) think it contains nitric acid (acid))

Mixed all nutes in separate glasses mixed with 24 hour circulated reservoir water.
Then added the nutes in all 3 glasses to the dwc bubbler (mixing thouroughly between each glass).
I added the glasses in this order: Micro, Grow and Bloom.
I use Advanced Hydroponics of Holland btw.

The nute ratio was 3 drops Micro, 6 drops Grow and 3 drops Bloom.

So the Rhizotonic was not the cause for the ph and ec increase, i know this beacuse the ph and ec still increased at the same rate as it did before, without the Rhizotonic.

Thank god it wasnt the Rhizotonic, my bitches seemed to love that stuff, nice white roots.

NEW PROBLEM

The plants are suffering from rapid ph fluctuations or nute lockout due to the rapid ph fluctuations. I know this because ive seen the classic symptons of the tips of leaves turning to rust color and then crumbling/dying and falling off (starting from bottom going up to the top!).

This is what killed my 4 other plants in bloom and what is now affecting my seedlings and my 2 mothers.

Its horrible! Please help I dont want to give up bubblers for this! Their so awesome!

Seriously i need some help, im desperate!

Since im getting desperate im getting desperate theories

I know you cant really cause your plants roots to "overdose" on oxygen but here we go anyway:

I think the oxygen that is added from the dwc bubbler is causing the water to increase in ph.

Thus alot of added oxygen causes H2O and Oxygen to react and form Hydroxide ions.

And "Increase the amount of hydroxide ions (OH-), and the water becomes more alkaline ("high pH").". - http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/waterchemsitry/a/waterph.htm

SOLUTION

I will clean and flush out a larger bubbler (5gallon) and fill it with 24 hour circulated reservoir water.
Then turn on air pump and add oxygen. (3000cc/min)
1 hour later.
Take results.
2 hours later.
Take results.
3 hours later.
Take results. and so on till 5 hours.

Then we will see if too much added oxygen is the cause.

Is it dangerous to keep adding nitric acid every 12 hours to keep the ph don at 5.5?

xxxskunkxxx,
dont know about your an of holland foods, i would be feeding them at least 0.5/0.6 ec and if your tank wont stabilize ph it 3 times a day, 5.5/6.3.ph swing anything above that your locking up and no food getting through.Personaly i find the ph wants to return to it original
ph in your case 8.1 ,ro water help alot ph 6.3,also hungry plants cause ph to rise so try boosting the food and dont let the ph get above 6.3.hope this helps.

Okay, I increased ec from 0.33 to 0.50. It seems like a steep upwards curve but if they are craving more food then it should not harm them much.

I will take down results and see if the ph stops increasing so much.

Anything new on this? My ph keeps going up too... Keeps wanting to go to 8. Early vegging plants look OK, but...8...!

Plants are so you just rember to keep it simple.. I dont understand why ph and tds is going up at same time.. The ph and tds should be inversly porportional.. Meaning if one goes up one goes down.. What are your water temps? I use gh all the time and never had problems with that.. Make sure the other suplements are able to run with gh.. Also make sure you have water first then add Micro, then other coresponding nutes..

I am having the same issue with my dwc ph and ppm keep rising at the same time not sure what to do at this point.plants are at 3wks + from seed avg ph is 6.1 ppm is 740 started at 5.3/680 .I have 6 10gal rubbermaids running .I also thought that The ph and tds should be inversly porportional but this has me baffled I thought about re adjusting the ph and boosting the nutes a little bit before things go bad I am using GH nutes with lucas formula.

xxxskunkxxx said:

What other root stimulant do you recomend?

Click to expand...

None. The more crap you add, the more problems you add. My tap's EC is 0.5 to which I add 1.25ml per gal GH Flora Micro and GH Flora Bloom for either unpopped seeds or unrooted clones. As roots show, nute strength is increased. With such a lean solution, pH adjustment is 0.2ml per gal of pH down.

Oxygenating water causes it to release CO2 which exists in the form of somethingorother acid. Removing acid raises alkalinity. The fewer nutes you have the faster this happens.

I think the problem is too much junk and too little food.

I love Rhizotonic

xxxskunkxxx said:

Container/Pot size? 1gal
Nutrients added? 4ml Rhizotonic, 1 drop Micro, 2 drops Grow, 1 drop bloom and some Ph (Grow) down.

Click to expand...

I think you made an error calculating the amounts of nutrients to add. 1 drop is approx. 0.05-0.1ml. Get a 3ml syringe to measure 0.4ml Micro, 0.8ml Grow, 0.4ml Bloom per Liter.
I hope your plants are still alive.

Roland

SOLUTION

SOLUTION

There was no difference in removing or using rhizotonic in the nutrient solution, so use rhizo for great white roots (it really does work )

I solved the problem by constantly monitoring the ph every few hours and bringing it down to 5.5ph. Don't let the ph get greater than 6.2 or lower than 5.2 as it would cause nutrient lookout.

I use Nitric Acid (or something with nitrogen in it) as ph down in veg, anyways its meant for plants in veg and I think the plants are either consuming all of this ph down or something else is going on.

However this solution does work, the first hours after a complete refill of your dwc the ph will swing wildly so check it every hour for 6 hours and keep adjusting it to 5.5, next day you can check it every 3 hours then 6 hours and so on as the ph stablizies over a couple of days.

The only weird result i got so far is the leaves are getting enormous (like some elephant disease), after 1 week in veg the plants were 20cm high and the fan leaves have a diameter of 20 cm its silly! haha

glad you got it sorted skunk, pot size has a lot to do with leaf size and strech, as your roots are not restricted your leaves and stems will grow fat. good luck dwc can grow massive plants.

stay safe