0/6/9 and getting the "claw"/rams horn?

bushdoctor215 · Jun 26, 2011

Trying the rezipie/h3ad formula for the first time and I`m getting this damn claw thing. Not bad, just a few leaves on each plant. I don`t think it could be to much N. Its only around 850ppm total with around 150 ppm of cal-mag added first because i use RO water. This strain has been pushed to 1500ppm with other nutrient lines in the same room with no ill effects. The only difference is the nute formula this time and watering every day with lots of runoff. Plants are 2.5 weeks into flowering and look good otherwise. 5 gallon pots filled with canna coco. ppm`s and ph the same going in as runoff. Any ideas? Thanks

Snow Crash · Jun 26, 2011

I'd keep it simple and switch to a 5/10 or 5/12 ratio. Nothing too crazy, don't want to cut out the Cal-Mag or much micro because you need the Calcium for the cation buffer. If anything, just 1ml less per gallon of micro is probably the best bet. If you really wanted to get crazy you could cut micro to 4ml and increase the Cal-Mag to 300ppm. This should keep the Calcium ppm level in the solution about the same while decreasing the total amount of nitrogen available.

Honestly, that's all a bit complicated. Less micro, little more bloom to compensate, and keep that Cal-Mag running. Good luck.

caljim · Jun 26, 2011

Get rid of the cal mag----it's giving you excess nitrogen, hence the claw.

bushdoctor215 · Jun 26, 2011

caljim said:
Get rid of the cal mag----it's giving you excess nitrogen, hence the claw.

According to canna-stats, even with the cal/mag they are getting 90ppm of N. I`ve given this same strain 170+ppm of N with no ill effects. I really think it`s something else. Could this be water stress? I`ve never watered daily with this much runoff in 5 gallon pots before.Usually EOD. IDK. Could canna`s precharge have something to do with it? I ran it straight out of the bag...

Hydropimp · Jun 26, 2011

Pic plz

And you add cal/mag first then micro? Not good. Micro always comes first.

bushdoctor215 · Jun 26, 2011

Lets go with that thought. Are you saying that adding 150 ppm of cal/mag first is creating some sort of lockout ? I`m using RO and have always added it first with no pobs. In fact, my moms are given the same mix right now in soil with no probs. Sorry but I don`t post picks. Imagine an otherwise healthy plant with a few clawed leaves. Thanks

MIway · Jun 26, 2011

I'll take an outside position for my shot here... is the temp running any higher in there now that summer is here?

My only thought (all other things being equal as you are outlining)... is that when the temps run high, my gals want a lower nute mix... more water than anything to offset their need to transpire more. I tend to have to back off the nute mix a little to compensate.

Just an outside thought...? ;-)

bushdoctor215 · Jun 26, 2011

MIway said:
I'll take an outside position for my shot here... is the temp running any higher in there now that summer is here?

My only thought (all other things being equal as you are outlining)... is that when the temps run high, my gals want a lower nute mix... more water than anything to offset their need to transpire more. I tend to have to back off the nute mix a little to compensate.

Just an outside thought...? ;-)

Thanks for the reply. Temps not a problem. climate controlled room. Never higher then 75 or lower then 65. RH between 50-60%. co2 1000ppm lights on, 400ppm lights off. I`m gonna let the pots dry out a little more and see what happens.

one Q · Jun 26, 2011

bad thing about canna stats is that you listen to a web site over listening to your PLANTS!

Get rid of the CalMag and your problem will be solved. IMO CalMag should be used only to hydrate coir, and feed a deficiency, NOT as a part of regular feeding. Unless you have ran a Pheno and KNOW, it needs CaMg every feeding to not become deficient.

HTH.

bushdoctor215 · Jun 26, 2011

one Q said:
bad thing about canna stats is that you listen to a web site over listening to your PLANTS!

Get rid of the CalMag and your problem will be solved. IMO CalMag should be used only to hydrate coir, and feed a deficiency, NOT as a part of regular feeding. Unless you have ran a Pheno and KNOW, it needs CaMg every feeding to not become deficient.

HTH.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Could you please explain WHY the addition of 150ppm of cal/mag is causing the clawing? This strain has been fed more cal/mag in the past and stronger strength NPK and clawing never happened. From what I`ve read, excess N is not the only reason clawing.

one Q · Jun 26, 2011

Sadly I cannot explain it in a technical way. I can only share my experience. My experience tells me that my reply to you is what I would do.

Coir holds on to nutes. Cation exchange is what its called I think. Put N in the medium and it some of it goes into the coir, some gets used by the plant. If you keep putting more than what the plant needs and the coir cant hold any more then it burns the plants.

the thing with trouble shooting is you have to start at ONE point. Then to the next based on the results. So start with one plain water day fully soaked but dont flush hard, then just the 6:9 from then on. If your new leaves are still getting the claw, then it's something else. But for now based on the info, I think that it's the excess of N.

So Let me share my exp with you. I ran the same cut for 5-6 grows. First run was crazy and ended in 40 days. Done perfectly at 35days but I couldnt bring myself to pull it that early. So 40-45 days was the pull time for that cut. Then on the last grow, the same cut went 55 days! I did make some changes, I added Infinity from Aurora... This one additive did wonders for the yield of the cut but extended the flowering time by 15 days.

My point? Plants are alive and their needs change. I dont know why, I just know that they do. I ran the same cut and got better at growing it every time. Then she threw a curve ball and at day 40 she obviously needed more time. I just rolled with it and was rewarded with heavier flower.

bushdoctor215 · Jun 26, 2011

The plain water feed uses common sense and I fully agree. Not knowing exactly why this is happening drives me crazy especially when this plant has been pushed much harder in the past. I`m starting to think the daily feeds to runoff in the 5 gallon pots when the plants were smaller contributed to this excess.

Snow Crash · Jun 27, 2011

A lot of this advice makes no sense to me.

The micro, containing 5% Nitrogen and 5% Calcium, has an equal amount of Nitrogen to Calcium.

The Cal-Mag Plus, containing 2% Nitrogen and 3% Calcium, has less Nitrogen then Calcium.

If you wanted to dial in your nitrogen levels while having a minimal impact on the calcium levels then the smart product to decrease is the micro. Both systems rely on a quantity of Calcium Nitrate in the solution. So by reducing the amount of Micro while increasing the amount of Cal-Mag this will create a solution that has a similar concentration of calcium as before yet with less Nitrogen, while still using the same primary salt as a source for the elements.

As I understand the problem, it is with Nitrogen, not Calcium. Removing the more Calcium from the system than Nitrogen (by axing the Cal-Mag completely) may just as well cause more problems then it solves. Therefore, it makes more sense to maintain or increase the Cal-Mag levels while decreasing the Micro levels if you wanted to decrease the total Nitrogen ppm without impacting the Calcium ppm much.

Or, you have faith in the system and pray to the cannabis gods that 6/9 without Cal-Mag is what you should be running.

orange juice · Jun 27, 2011

I would just plain water feed 1 day. Keep normal nute schedule after that. If it doesn't get better plain water feed 1 more day and reduce all nutrient by ~10% for a couple days.

btw it's not just too much N that will cause the claw, I got it from a solution that had hardly any N at all and like you with strains I've known to take much hotter N levels. Too much Mg or K can do it too. but most of the time it's just build up and 1 day plain water (not flush, just normal amount minus nutes) fixes them very quick. Also over watering can do it too.

bushdoctor215 · Jun 27, 2011

orange juice said:
I would just plain water feed 1 day. Keep normal nute schedule after that. If it doesn't get better plain water feed 1 more day and reduce all nutrient by ~10% for a couple days.

btw it's not just too much N that will cause the claw, I got it from a solution that had hardly any N at all and like you with strains I've known to take much hotter N levels. Too much Mg or K can do it too. but most of the time it's just build up and 1 day plain water (not flush, just normal amount minus nutes) fixes them very quick. Also over watering can do it too.

This is exactly what my gut has been telling me. Thanks for the advice everyone. I got bored and tried something new when it wasn`t broke in the first place. There`s always a learning curve LOL!

loyalty7 · Jun 27, 2011

cut cal-mag one ml, and micro 1 ml, too much nitrogen is the cause of the claw, some strains react like this, easy fix, if not flush one feeding and go back to ur reg feed...

bushdoctor215 · Jun 30, 2011

Update for those interested. I let the pots dry a little bit and gave them plain ph`d water. not a lot, just enough to saturate the pot with no runoff. Next day, whoa, plants all pale. WTF! I`m thinking these plants are starving. First thing I do is dial down co2 levels to 500ppm and raise the lights a couple inches. Don`t need to push them looking like that. My first thoughts are go with what you know to fix this. I make a res with a coco specific nutrient that that has very high N ratios and add my 150ppm of cal/mag (first). I water with a good amount of runoff and hope for the best. Next morning I go in to check and the plants are greening up nicely and the leaves are all reaching for the sky. I fed yesterday the same mix with no runoff. just enough to wet the pot. Today they look glorious! The few leaves that had clawed are flatening out some. I checked the co2 controller with a test kit and it was acurate. I still don`t know for sure what caused the initial clawing but I am sure it wasn`t to much N. The plants are getting almost twice the ppm of N as before and never looked better. Flowers are swelling nicely since the switch...

Hydropimp · Jul 1, 2011

Bush read your gh label for Mixing micro first. I was looking for the info. It is right on the gh bottle.

I guess you should stick to the coco nutes for now.

Good to see you have a back up nute that you know how to work it.

ShroomDr · Jul 1, 2011

Both Cal-Mag and 'Micro' have Calcium Nitrate and Iron, they are both 'first'. It doesnt matter which.

FWIW Technaflora puts the majority of their 'micros' in their 'second' bottle. Their 'first' bottle is called 'Boost', and it contains Calcium Nitrate and Iron.

bushdoctor215 · Jul 1, 2011

Hydropimp said:
Bush read your gh label for Mixing micro first. I was looking for the info. It is right on the gh bottle.

I guess you should stick to the coco nutes for now.

Good to see you have a back up nute that you know how to work it.

It`s been a long time since I`ve run GH but I knew micro was before the bloom or grow. As shroomy pointed out, micro and cal/mag are both "first" additions.

0/6/9 and getting the "claw"/rams horn?

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