-
Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
-
Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!
Water Cooled Growers Unite!
- Thread starter toohighmf
- Start date
Shrapnel, you're under direct order to stay out of this thread. Your flaming and disregard for the rules will not be tolerated.
wow I missed a lot while I been thinking things out. I just got 2 complete colosseums I am going to implement into this project, and I am back to full speed ahead. Looks like I'm not paying nearly as much tax this year so if my friends chiller isn't done, I may need to buy the chillking 2HP. Not looking forward to that, but I think it will be well worth it in the end.
I used two early water cooled systems, like 10 yrs ago. One was a huge globe that you could put over your head, a big fat 1000w could fit in it and had this big top with gaskets, it was huge and crays. I should take a pic of it, its upside down as a planter now. 
And I did I an agricool 1000 watt.
anyway, I had trouble getting my chiller to keep up as well as it should have but found great success with an aluminum radiator and fan system. Im sure that there are chillers now that do that job fine, but you can sure do it with a radiator setup cheaper.
I screwed mine up once by adding the smallest amount of clear anti algea solution. It had some photochemical reaction and made an opaque black film on the bulb.
And I did I an agricool 1000 watt.anyway, I had trouble getting my chiller to keep up as well as it should have but found great success with an aluminum radiator and fan system. Im sure that there are chillers now that do that job fine, but you can sure do it with a radiator setup cheaper.
I screwed mine up once by adding the smallest amount of clear anti algea solution. It had some photochemical reaction and made an opaque black film on the bulb.
ugmjfarmer
Member
I have a question about cost of water cooling vs air cooling. Specifically if I was to install a heat exchanger setup using my municipal water, which would cost $6 per CCF (782 gallons). The water is COLD, colder than I need. I could make use of electronic flow control with a temp controller to minimize water usage.
How many CCF's would I be pulling down per day to cool a 11 light setup?
How many CCF's would I be pulling down per day to cool a 11 light setup?
I doubt this question can be answered, too many variables. I'd say to get a bigger exchanger than you think you need, put a 120V shutoff valve on the inlet line, then a inline hand valve so you can close the line down most of the way so a trickle comes out when it's on. Then plug the 120V valve and the heat exchanger fans into your thermostat. Farmtek sells the valves you need, and heatexchanger.ca sells the exchanger.
In the future I'm gonna have a couple geothermal loops dug in, so I can pump water in one side and it will always come out cold on the other. No chiller needed, just a pump and a heat exchanger.
I'm sure Shrapnel will absolutely HATE this idea though!
Ground water is usually below 65 degrees so I think your on to something here. I'm chompin at the bit to get going on this venture so let's keep the ideas a flowing as we spark up another inspirational doobie and brain storm.
Have A Great Day
Mr.Wags
LoudBlunts
Member
avg 55F temp
not only is he on to something.... but you do know that the technology is already there right?
pressurizing and depressurizing is pretty much how they control the heat/cool
thing is...it just cost hella money upfront....but i guess that is all 'energy efficient' things, no?
http://www.geocomfort.com/
http://www.reddawn.com/featart11-98.html
I think it would be too cool to have water-cooled lights on one geo loop, and a heat exchanger on the second one. The system is closed-circuit so water usage is pretty much nil, and with the pump on the lights only running during lights-on your heat exchanger would run even less. I'm told they can be pretty noisy and the fans on the bigger units use a decent amount of power.
I'd probably wire up the exchanger pump to a thermostat so the pump kicks on when room temps exceed 75*, then have the exchanger/fans on a separate thermostat to kick on around 78*F. This keeps you from needing to run the water pump continuously, saving power and noise (and pump wear.)
One could even pass a large coil of tubing or hose into your reservoirs before the exchanger to use as a water chiller. Or use a separate geo loop for a res chiller.
Hmm, you could also dump the hot water out of a water-cooled CO2 generator (ala HydroGEN Pro) into a loop and recirculate that as well.
What else? Damn it's looking like I'm gonna want a buncha geo loops to play with someday, hahaha
I'd probably wire up the exchanger pump to a thermostat so the pump kicks on when room temps exceed 75*, then have the exchanger/fans on a separate thermostat to kick on around 78*F. This keeps you from needing to run the water pump continuously, saving power and noise (and pump wear.)
One could even pass a large coil of tubing or hose into your reservoirs before the exchanger to use as a water chiller. Or use a separate geo loop for a res chiller.
Hmm, you could also dump the hot water out of a water-cooled CO2 generator (ala HydroGEN Pro) into a loop and recirculate that as well.
What else? Damn it's looking like I'm gonna want a buncha geo loops to play with someday, hahaha
Aha, found this clip when I googled geothermal cooling loop costs:
Cost
As a rule of thumb, a geothermal heat pump system costs about $2,500 per ton of capacity. The typically sized home would use a three-ton unit costing roughly $7,500. That initial cost is nearly twice the price of a regular heat pump system that would probably cost about $4,000, with air conditioning.
You will have to, however, add the cost of drilling to this total amount. The final cost will depend on whether your system will drill vertically deep underground or will put the loops in a horizontal fashion a shorter distance below ground. The cost of drilling can run anywhere from $10,000 to $30,000, or more depending on the terrain and other local factors.
Added to an already built home an replacing an existing HVAC unit, an efficient geothermal system saves enough on utility bills that the investment can be recouped in five to ten years.
I think I'd just need the drilling and the tubing, the rest of my system would be DIY. But still that's a lot of coin for drilling! Hope that helps someone!
Cost
As a rule of thumb, a geothermal heat pump system costs about $2,500 per ton of capacity. The typically sized home would use a three-ton unit costing roughly $7,500. That initial cost is nearly twice the price of a regular heat pump system that would probably cost about $4,000, with air conditioning.
You will have to, however, add the cost of drilling to this total amount. The final cost will depend on whether your system will drill vertically deep underground or will put the loops in a horizontal fashion a shorter distance below ground. The cost of drilling can run anywhere from $10,000 to $30,000, or more depending on the terrain and other local factors.
Added to an already built home an replacing an existing HVAC unit, an efficient geothermal system saves enough on utility bills that the investment can be recouped in five to ten years.
I think I'd just need the drilling and the tubing, the rest of my system would be DIY. But still that's a lot of coin for drilling! Hope that helps someone!
Last edited:
More info:
I've read frost that extends as far as 5 feet down, but not eight. I would think if is a concern, to dig 10 foot trenches to be on the safe side, since getting a guy with a backhoe is cheaper than a drilling rig. As for Drilling costs, expect to pay around $15 to $25 per foot drilling. So one 300 foot drill hole is going to run you as much as 7,500 before the cost of putting the piping in. I'm not sure how many holes your going to need, but I would guess several, so three holes is going to run you 22.5k. If you were to rent a backhoe and dig trenches yourself, it would cost between $175 to $300 a day. At $300 a day, you could rent a backhoe for 75 days, I would think you could dig to China in that amount of time.
Hell, you could even buy a backhoe for less. On the small end, compact backhoes that can dig about 6' to 8' deep start at around $12,000 for a no-frills model, and jump to $20,000 to $30,000 for 9' to 10' dig depths. What some contractor do is they go to a heavy equipment auction and buy what they need. After they are finished with the item, they return it to the next auction and resell it. You could potentially buy a 50k high end backhoe and resell it 6 months later for the same or more than what you paid for it... Depending on how much it's in demand at the time.
I guess the point I'm trying the make here is Avoid drilling if you can, the price difference is considerable.
and:
Posted By geodean on 03/05/2008 8:56 AM
I have a 4.5 ton heat pump with 6000' of 1" pipe buried in my back yard. The pipe is coiled in a slinky loop. Five loops each with 1200 feet of pipe. Each trench is 120' long.
According to the Link you provided, that may be overkill, they state, "PP&L recommends for each ton of capacity a 100 foot trench, 3 feet wide and 6 feet deep in the Slinky area, 4 feet deep in the pipe header area, using 750 to 800 feet of ¾-inch pipe on a 17 inch pitch." So 3600 feet 3/4 inch pipe should be sufficent. However your a lot more qualified them me to make that determination. So my the question is having more pipe than you require a "bad" thing? I know it pushes the installation costs higher, but does it also push the operating cost higher as well? "Loops for one circulator should use no more than 750 to 800 feet of pipe to minimize pressure losses and maintain turbulent flow"
I'm assuming the pipe is made of plastic, How deep is the pipe buried?
geodeanUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1182
--
05 Mar 2008 12:31 PM
My loop was designed by a geothermal designer (not me). How much pipe to be used was determined by location, Max and Min soil temps, soil type, soil moisture content and a few other things.
The PP&L is using 3/4 inch pipe. Mine is 1" pipe. A 1200' length of 3/4 inch pipe would be problematic. 1200' of 1" pipe works just fine. If my system was built according to PP&L specs, I would be having serious problems. My soil would probably freeze and my COP's would be a lot lower. My heat pump might even stop working if the loop temps dropped to low.
What might work in Pennsylvania will not necessarily work in Utah.
The majority of problems with geo heat pumps are caused by two factors. Undersizing the heat pump and undersizing the loop. Loops using PP&L's directions have a serious potential of being undersized.
For example a loop in damp sand would take 5240' , but the same loop in dry clay would take 8440'.
The is no such thing as one recommendation that works in all applications.
Over sizing the loop is not a big problem other than the cost of installation. Pumping costs would increase a little, but loop temps would be more moderate resulting in greater COP.
My pipe is in a 1'wide by 9' deep trench.
I included the above link to show what a slinky looks like. I do not have any confidence in their loop designing ability.
Just a couple posts from greenbuildingtalk.com
I've read frost that extends as far as 5 feet down, but not eight. I would think if is a concern, to dig 10 foot trenches to be on the safe side, since getting a guy with a backhoe is cheaper than a drilling rig. As for Drilling costs, expect to pay around $15 to $25 per foot drilling. So one 300 foot drill hole is going to run you as much as 7,500 before the cost of putting the piping in. I'm not sure how many holes your going to need, but I would guess several, so three holes is going to run you 22.5k. If you were to rent a backhoe and dig trenches yourself, it would cost between $175 to $300 a day. At $300 a day, you could rent a backhoe for 75 days, I would think you could dig to China in that amount of time.
Hell, you could even buy a backhoe for less. On the small end, compact backhoes that can dig about 6' to 8' deep start at around $12,000 for a no-frills model, and jump to $20,000 to $30,000 for 9' to 10' dig depths. What some contractor do is they go to a heavy equipment auction and buy what they need. After they are finished with the item, they return it to the next auction and resell it. You could potentially buy a 50k high end backhoe and resell it 6 months later for the same or more than what you paid for it... Depending on how much it's in demand at the time.
I guess the point I'm trying the make here is Avoid drilling if you can, the price difference is considerable.
and:
Posted By geodean on 03/05/2008 8:56 AM
I have a 4.5 ton heat pump with 6000' of 1" pipe buried in my back yard. The pipe is coiled in a slinky loop. Five loops each with 1200 feet of pipe. Each trench is 120' long.
According to the Link you provided, that may be overkill, they state, "PP&L recommends for each ton of capacity a 100 foot trench, 3 feet wide and 6 feet deep in the Slinky area, 4 feet deep in the pipe header area, using 750 to 800 feet of ¾-inch pipe on a 17 inch pitch." So 3600 feet 3/4 inch pipe should be sufficent. However your a lot more qualified them me to make that determination. So my the question is having more pipe than you require a "bad" thing? I know it pushes the installation costs higher, but does it also push the operating cost higher as well? "Loops for one circulator should use no more than 750 to 800 feet of pipe to minimize pressure losses and maintain turbulent flow"
I'm assuming the pipe is made of plastic, How deep is the pipe buried?
geodeanUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1182
--
05 Mar 2008 12:31 PM
My loop was designed by a geothermal designer (not me). How much pipe to be used was determined by location, Max and Min soil temps, soil type, soil moisture content and a few other things.
The PP&L is using 3/4 inch pipe. Mine is 1" pipe. A 1200' length of 3/4 inch pipe would be problematic. 1200' of 1" pipe works just fine. If my system was built according to PP&L specs, I would be having serious problems. My soil would probably freeze and my COP's would be a lot lower. My heat pump might even stop working if the loop temps dropped to low.
What might work in Pennsylvania will not necessarily work in Utah.
The majority of problems with geo heat pumps are caused by two factors. Undersizing the heat pump and undersizing the loop. Loops using PP&L's directions have a serious potential of being undersized.
For example a loop in damp sand would take 5240' , but the same loop in dry clay would take 8440'.
The is no such thing as one recommendation that works in all applications.
Over sizing the loop is not a big problem other than the cost of installation. Pumping costs would increase a little, but loop temps would be more moderate resulting in greater COP.
My pipe is in a 1'wide by 9' deep trench.
I included the above link to show what a slinky looks like. I do not have any confidence in their loop designing ability.
Just a couple posts from greenbuildingtalk.com
LoudBlunts
Member
told ya Lazyman....that shit is uber pricey...i mean shit the digging alone is some cake!
i've been on geothermal for about 2-3 years now lol..... I, like you, want that technology.... been hooked every since i heard/learned about it
i've been on geothermal for about 2-3 years now lol..... I, like you, want that technology.... been hooked every since i heard/learned about it
Hmm, I have free access to a backhoe though, and about an acre of grass I can do whatever I want to. Sounds like a good summer project, dig some trenches and lay some coils of tubing out horizontally instead of paying a driller $20K. My only cost would be backhoe fuel and the tubing, which couldn't be more than a few grand. Wow at that rate it's cheaper for me to dig in coils than it is to buy a chiller.
Hmm, gears are-a-turnin!
Hmm, gears are-a-turnin!
LoudBlunts
Member
free access to a backhoe?
i hate you i hate you i hate you i hate you..... lol just kidding
have fun bro...keep us posted. i'd love to see it
LoudBlunts
Member
hahaha some loser neg repped me for this last post.
good job, grow nerd
good job, grow nerd
Geothermal is a great idea for those who live next to a lake or pond. No earth moving and a fairly easy setup.
Hell, for 30 grand you could probably dig a pond big enough to cool your house and have a place to go fishing.
Hell, for 30 grand you could probably dig a pond big enough to cool your house and have a place to go fishing.
reckon
Member
wow, I just wanted to look at this thread and ask some advice on my h2o cooling attempt, but the subject seems to be "who has the biggest brain pan/ego", than ACTUAL water cooling ideas/advice,......thanks to freezerboy, I only saw a little of it (actual thanx, not a heckle)
I made a quick closed system: used trans cooler, 145gph fountain pump, small ice chest, silicone tubing,.....but I need to enclose the trans cooler/heat exchanger with some foam, and get a better blower instead of using this pussy ass 20" box fan, to blow the room air through the "heat exchanger", then I was thinking of possibly running the tank into the fridge, which sits 36" away from the grow (the grow space is in the kitchen of my apt, where the breakfast table WOULD be).
still,...running at room temp it drops the temp 3 to 5 degrees just running it, if I add some cold packs (2 frozen 2 liter water bottles), it drops the temps almost 15 degrees as long as the water stays chilled, which is only about 4-5 hours with the current set up. (so I have 4 bottles, and switch them out every 5 hours of lights on during hot days, since I am always home)
running the "tank" in the vegetable chiller of my fridge would mean a constant water temp of about 45-50 degrees, and I wouldn't use any MORE juice since the fridge is already running.
I REALLY like these things, they use almost NO juice compared to an A/C unit, they get COLD if you set them up right, they are just STUPID cheap (mine was $70 for everything)
and they add almost NO humidity in my grow,.....once I enclose and insulate it better, I will probably get some condensation off of the exchanger which I can just drain to waste, but I never have to add water to it since it's a closed system.
any suggestions beyond what I already detailed?
I made a quick closed system: used trans cooler, 145gph fountain pump, small ice chest, silicone tubing,.....but I need to enclose the trans cooler/heat exchanger with some foam, and get a better blower instead of using this pussy ass 20" box fan, to blow the room air through the "heat exchanger", then I was thinking of possibly running the tank into the fridge, which sits 36" away from the grow (the grow space is in the kitchen of my apt, where the breakfast table WOULD be).
still,...running at room temp it drops the temp 3 to 5 degrees just running it, if I add some cold packs (2 frozen 2 liter water bottles), it drops the temps almost 15 degrees as long as the water stays chilled, which is only about 4-5 hours with the current set up. (so I have 4 bottles, and switch them out every 5 hours of lights on during hot days, since I am always home)
running the "tank" in the vegetable chiller of my fridge would mean a constant water temp of about 45-50 degrees, and I wouldn't use any MORE juice since the fridge is already running.
I REALLY like these things, they use almost NO juice compared to an A/C unit, they get COLD if you set them up right, they are just STUPID cheap (mine was $70 for everything)
and they add almost NO humidity in my grow,.....once I enclose and insulate it better, I will probably get some condensation off of the exchanger which I can just drain to waste, but I never have to add water to it since it's a closed system.
any suggestions beyond what I already detailed?
LoudBlunts
Member
right on
Ok thanks for joining WCG.com, I do have a question that pertains to sizing.
How do you calculate the BTU's needed to cool a room factoring in water temperature, ambient temps, heat load and exchangers? I am not interested in iceboxes at all (I use bare bulbs vertically) but would like to hear some input on this.
Thanks!
How do you calculate the BTU's needed to cool a room factoring in water temperature, ambient temps, heat load and exchangers? I am not interested in iceboxes at all (I use bare bulbs vertically) but would like to hear some input on this.
Thanks!
