Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

Yeah jsroek [spelling] has influenced several people around here. Here's an example that we should get to see a harvest report on soon.

http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=164050

bs0 said:

Don't mean to post all over your thread but I'm super pumped about this topic and had been intending to create a thread about it myself.

I'm about 5 days from harvesting my first test batch, but mine is more SOG to your supercropping/scrog. I'm so excited to see what the change is, here I thought I was figuring out something new but turns out... 12 days or so I'll have numbers to share. The lower buds are literally 3-5 times bigger than before and everything looks right (instead of the pale green of immature). I have a 60 day plant and I defoliated at 4 and 6weeks.

I love your supercropping. So many elbows!

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Post away, friend. Sounds like you have positive results, that's what we want to hear.

!!! said:

are the benefits of this mainly beneficial in SoG grows or those severely limited in grow space?

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Actually the space pictured is the roomiest ever for my setup and they still demand deleafing attention.

I SOGGed for years using various spacings from 4"-12" until it became clear that SOG was overrated and far more work. As spacing increased to now at 32" it seems that SOG theory was a dream that it could produce more than larger plants in a given space. It sounded good but proper training of a large plant replicates the space efficiency of SOG.

Proper preparation

Proper preparation

I want to stress to those interested yet uninitiated that you MUST prepare the plant in Veg. If you just placed some plants in 12/12 and you now decide to try this, you will be sorely disappointed.

It is all about having the patience to move back the timeline and add additional veg time into your schedule. Once this additional time has been integrated into the process it becomes standard and does not add to the actual production cycle.

We are creating a much different plant and growth cycle so diligence and commitment to the plan is essential. Just removing a few leaves will not do it.

It is the stretch we are trying to contain. Stretching is the enemy as well as the huge leaves that accompany it.

k33ftr33z said:

It sounded good but proper training of a large plant replicates the space efficiency of SOG.

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I agree, that is the same method I used when finding my sweet spot. I think yields are comparable to a ScrOG.


jammie - Honestly, you should not bash until you try it. Keep an open mind, and don't be afraid to experiment.

k33ftr33z said:

If you just placed some plants in 12/12 and you now decide to try this, you will be sorely disappointed.

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I run 12/12 from seed usually and still use this method.

This was my last crop...


Notice lack of foliage. - some are still a bit leafy up top, I am still dialing this method down, and trying different ways.

here I am almost 3 weeks into 12/12, do you think defoliation would prove a success on my end? or should it not be done if u havnt done it from thje start? I just read the old thread, Jro cuts them off at day 20, and again at day 40.

just wonderin, thanks guys.

jammie said:

i don't know- Everything i've read on plant physiology sez that leaves are solar cells to provide energy for flower production through photosynthesis. flowers and fruit "ripen" by plant derived hormones not sun/lumens on the bud. on some fruit crops they try to shade the fruit cause light degrades the flavors and essential oils. Why do i want to exposure my buds to extra light while there developing thc but then shade those same buds during the curing, drying and storage stage because light and heat damages and degrades thc????? I think nature is just a little smarter than me, and if it was better to drop its leaves early, it would do it without my help, which by the way it does when its finished growing

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On the other hand...
Your top buds are exposed to intense light, why would you want to shade everything below it. Heat and light may damage and degrade CURING herb, but a growing plant can take as much indoor light as you can deliver.

What has been learned through experience by others as well as I is that it is light exposure to the BUDS that drives dense, tough nug development. A plant left alone will shade out all but the top buds. There is nothing unusual or unorthodox about training plants to overcome their unwieldy natural character. Fruit trees, grape vines, tomatoes all are trained in one fashion or another to maximize yield.

Your stated case is natural and may likely be your best methodology but I suggest a little experimentation to see what we are talking about.

Consider your first statement "everything I have read..."

if you try this method you could then say...
"my experience tells me..."

big difference

Thanks for posting.

TicalionStalion said:

here I am almost 3 weeks into 12/12, do you think defoliation would prove a success on my end? or should it not be done if u havnt done it from thje start? I just read the old thread, Jro cuts them off at day 20, and again at day 40.

just wonderin, thanks guys.

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Read the same thing, in the same position on one grow, wondering the same things too...

TicalionStalion said:

here I am almost 3 weeks into 12/12, do you think defoliation would prove a success on my end? or should it not be done if u havnt done it from thje start? I just read the old thread, Jro cuts them off at day 20, and again at day 40.

just wonderin, thanks guys.

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That plant looks to be a good candidate. Plenty branchy. Definitely too leafy by this method. Looks similar to the previous "too leafy" example I posted.

Yes, I would strip it clean then evaluate it for bending. You may be able to lower the lamp after this treatment.

Nice healthy looking. Please be aware that my confidence in this method has not always translated to others but I think you have a good structure and timing is perfect.

Reflective material under the plant is optimal. Once the leaves are removed a lot of light can penetrate and be reflected back up increasing overall glare which plants love.

very cool, now I have something big to consider. I know what u mean about the confidence thing, Im kind of afrain to go thru with it, but hell, if I can double my yield?? shit. lol

Ticalion,

Keep in mind the tunnel that I have created is a light monster. Full reflective surround. Your pic shows no surround. What is your wattage and lamp height. Do you have a tent or other type of reflective enclosure. If not, try to improvise something.

TicalionStalion said:

very cool, now I have something big to consider. I know what u mean about the confidence thing, Im kind of afrain to go thru with it, but hell, if I can double my yield?? shit. lol

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Good to see no fear. Can't say double yield but surely more than if left alone. In the lower of the photo you can see paler lime green buds getting left below to blanch out. Those will catch right up and toughen and darken once they are better exposed.

I'm going to give this a go. I currently have 5 fem'd Lemon Skunk, and 5 fem'd Blue Mystic seedlings just about to start their vegetative life (working on their second leaf sets). I'll take one plant of each and defoliate and compare at harvest time. Which is going to be September so... sorry if you guys wanted an answer in a reasonable amount of time.

I grew up in Santa Cruz, and all of the old growers I know (40 y/o+), suggested trimming the fan leaves. The process they described to me was to remove just the larger leaves, leaving the young ones, and only if the larger leaf was shading lower sites.

I was growing outdoors at the time so I used this method on one plant. It wound up hermaphroditing, but it was bagseed so no surprise there. Also, for being an outdoor plant in an 11 gallon planter it was only 3 feet tall but was jam packed with budsites top to bottom. In the end we pulled thousands of seeds from this one plant because each bud site was so swollen and because there was a ton of them.

Since then I've been educated that trimming leaves is unwanted so I stopped doing it. I'm also growing indoors now.

When I think about this method I think about light penetration and canopy height. It is not going to work as well for a 250w or 400w setup because the bottom of the plant is too far from the source of the light and the number of lumens at that level are minimal. So, for a grower with a weak light source, they would have been better leaving some of the foliage in place and removing the lower branches that just don't have a chance.

Obviously, Scrog, LST, and SuperCropping can allow the canopy to maintain an even height. But still, the grower who will benefit most from this method would be the type that uses air cooled hoods and 1000w lamps to keep the lights as close as possible to the plants. Outdoor growers with plenty of sunlight will also benefit from my experience outdoors doing this versus not. This will allow the lower branches to get enough light to do what they need to do, I do not think lower wattage systems are going to benefit in the same way due to the decrease in light casting distance.

TexasToker said:

I run 12/12 from seed usually and still use this method.

This was my last crop...

Notice lack of foliage. - some are still a bit leafy up top, I am still dialing this method down, and trying different ways.

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Nice, can see where there used to be leaves and the development looks like it has benefitted.

Bending completes the method. With bushier plants, once the leaves are removed it becomes clear how to rearrange the vertical ends to horizontal by kinking. As soon as more branches are pointing up vertical in a few days I bend them horizontal again.

Now Jammie may have inadvertently had a point. Though your collective experiences show higher yields; they do not definitively prove it is from light to the buds, rather than hormones related to removing leaves.
I dont know. But I do know that my plants react hormonally amazingly quickly to even small cuts. As I learn each plant I learn how to manipulate each.

k33ftr33z said:

Ticalion,

Keep in mind the tunnel that I have created is a light monster. Full reflective surround. Your pic shows no surround. What is your wattage and lamp height. Do you have a tent or other type of reflective enclosure. If not, try to improvise something.

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I wanted to ask about this. What is the importance of an enclosure, specifically a reflective one, if the reflective surface is further from the light than the light is rated for.

As an example, let's say that a 400w lamp is rated for an area of 2.5 feet x 2.5 feet. You get a 3 foot x 3 foot tent to grow in. So the amount of energy that reaches the reflective surface is less than 1/10 of what it is at 6" from the bulb, at best just a few thousand lumens, so then that light is reflected back at maybe 85% efficiency... I dunno, it just seems like a lot of work and money for a really minimal impact on lumens.

Reflectors work best close to the light source. A wall more than 3 feet away from a 1000w lamp just isn't going to reflect that much light. I started a thread the other day with this question to which NO ONE has even bothered to answer.

That's the way it's been for me around here lately though. I swear I'm invisible. 2 threads, no comments, hardly any views, and when I offer advice no one cares. Not that I'm here for you yokels, but it's odd that I ask this question elsewhere and here's the opinion on it...

I have been doing a limited end of flower version of this for years. I've been taking all the fan leaves off a week before whacking. The inner buds definitely fatten up and get more dense in the more intense light field. Significantly. I have been wondering lately what would happen if I started earlier. I am extremely hesitant to do it all the way through veg as that's when root development is heaviest. Studies i've read indicate root and shoot growth are directly related and stunting one stunts the other.

But I can see doing it from the flip once or twice to see which way it goes. I grow perpetual, one plant a week, right now 8-10 zips per. It would not be difficult to run consecutive plants for comparison.

I am using side lighting in an arrangement that hits each plant with two 1k hortilux throughout flower except for the first week.

I have also been reading papers on senescence. There seems to be a point with cannabis in flower where photosynthesis has largely run it's course. That might be a good point to start stripping leaves but I can't seem to find a hard recommendation about when that point is reached. I'm thinking around the end of the 7th week in my 9 week strain. Sweet tooth #4.

but, I agree that growing indoors under artificial light with fixed photo periods is very different from growing outdoors and there is only one way to find out if the effect is worthwhile, so i'll take the plant going into 12/12 next week and strip it. We'll see.

I have seen several threads on this subject degenerate into name calling and hating. I don't understand people getting bent out of shape over a discussion about growing a plant.

Later on, d9

My other BIG question is, if you have to veg them an extra week or two, then is the yield truly that much better than a clone of the same age and cycle with leafs left on?

I dont lollipop but I typically remove the bottom foot of branches unless they are strong. Then I clean out the inside branches and create an open path for light. I tend to pluck small budlets also to promote large growth. Basically I grow a large structure and similarly remove branch to promote even light. I also tend to have to veg longer, although I am slightly willing to sacrifice large yields of snarf for respectable yields of chunk yummies.

i have always called it candlesticking. i like defoliation though!