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Haskel pneumatic refrigerant pumps
- Thread starter Gray Wolf
- Start date
Dave may be sleeping in on this gaugus Sunday morning and can correct me, so I'll toss out my understanding to keep things rolling:
The existing 59025 and new EXT-420 pumps operate on 100 psi air and have a 4:1 piston ratio, so can handle somewhere in the neighborhood of ~400 psi tank back pressure on the discharge side.
The maximum pressure that drawing D-59020 in the instruction manual that Haskel supplies allows, is 1250 psi on the inlet or outlet of the pump.
Dave at Haskel
Active member
Actually that was Gray Wolf that answered the question, but he got it exactly correct! The 59025-3/EXT420 materials of construction are also compatible with propane. The only question I would confirm is what the inlet pressures are. If they are much lower, the pump will work, but the flows will be lower.
Thanks Gray Wolf!
Dave
Many of us are moving to a butane / propane blend. I belive that propane take much more PSI to compress back into liquid than does butane.
Will we need to use the old school 2 stage recovery if we use a propane blend, or will the new single stage pump be sufficient?
Thank you very much for helping us get better and faster! Is the 100psi GW mentioned enough for a propane blend?
Yeah GW said it produced 100PSI and can handle a 400PSI back pressure. There is no way I work with even 100PSI as back pressure. My guess is we get 100PSI with the 25CFM air compressor, but can we get higher PSI with lower back pressure? Also what PSI range is necessary for a 70/30 blend (such as ecogreen is selling)?
Yeah GW said it produced 100PSI and can handle a 400PSI back pressure. There is no way I work with even 100PSI as back pressure. My guess is we get 100PSI with the 25CFM air compressor, but can we get higher PSI with lower back pressure? Also what PSI range is necessary for a 70/30 blend (such as ecogreen is selling)?
Here is a chart for purposes of discussion.
Attachments
So reading the chart I think we want to operate in areas of psig of 100 or less? If so it looks like the 60* water bath and cooled solvents everything is great. Only problems if temps get much warmer and the % of propane is 70% or more.
Thanks for the quick reply, I hope I didn't read the chart wrong.
I believe the 100 psi is how much air your compressor needs to put out in order to operate the pump, and that the max operating pressure is 1250 psi on either side "inlet or outlet" of the pump.
I could be wrong I am dyslexic.
I could be wrong I am dyslexic.
Dave at Haskel
Active member
Propane in the EXT420
Propane in the EXT420
Some clarifications, the maximum discharge pressure of the EXT420 is calculated by multiplying the compressed air pressure by 4 (the ratio of the pump) and then you add in the inlet pressure of the butane/propane on the suction line. That is:
Max pressure = (Pa * 4) + Ps
Where: Pa = Drive air pressure
Ps = Suction gas (propane/butane) pressure
So, if you had propane/butane at 50 psig and your drive air pressure was 100 psig, the maximum pressure you could get out of the pump is: (100 * 4) + 50 = 450 psig.
Now, if you go to a pressure of 450 psig, the pump will run very slowly, which means the flows will be low. To get maximum flow rate, I suggest keeping the outlet pressures about 20% below (or lower) the maximum pressure. In the case in the example above, that would mean not trying to get outlet pressures above about 360 psig - 80% of 450 psig is 360 psig.
Also, keep in mind that any time you compress gases you do product adiabatic heat, so the gas will leave the booster warmer than it goes in.
Hope that helps, let me know if you have further questions.
Dave
Propane in the EXT420
Some clarifications, the maximum discharge pressure of the EXT420 is calculated by multiplying the compressed air pressure by 4 (the ratio of the pump) and then you add in the inlet pressure of the butane/propane on the suction line. That is:
Max pressure = (Pa * 4) + Ps
Where: Pa = Drive air pressure
Ps = Suction gas (propane/butane) pressure
So, if you had propane/butane at 50 psig and your drive air pressure was 100 psig, the maximum pressure you could get out of the pump is: (100 * 4) + 50 = 450 psig.
Now, if you go to a pressure of 450 psig, the pump will run very slowly, which means the flows will be low. To get maximum flow rate, I suggest keeping the outlet pressures about 20% below (or lower) the maximum pressure. In the case in the example above, that would mean not trying to get outlet pressures above about 360 psig - 80% of 450 psig is 360 psig.
Also, keep in mind that any time you compress gases you do product adiabatic heat, so the gas will leave the booster warmer than it goes in.
Hope that helps, let me know if you have further questions.
Dave
Dave at Haskel
Active member
More clarification: The 1250 psig is what the EXT420 is structurally rated rated for, however, if you don't have enough drive air and the inlet pressures are too low, you can't get there.
Looking at the formula in my previous post (Max Pressure = (Pa*4)+ Ps), if you used drive air of 150 psig (the maximum drive air pressure the unit is rated for), you would need to have an inlet gas pressure of 650 psig to get an outlet pressure of 1,250 psig.
Hope that helps!
Dave
Thanks Dave! You've been a tremendous help already! You should look into becoming a dealer for haskel also, as you would undoubtedly sell alot of pumps to this industry.
I was just trying to make the point that 1250psi is the max of the pump, and that is far above any pressures any of us are seeing. I don't think any extractors are even using gauges that read anywhere near that pressure. Overkill is underrated!
I was just trying to make the point that 1250psi is the max of the pump, and that is far above any pressures any of us are seeing. I don't think any extractors are even using gauges that read anywhere near that pressure. Overkill is underrated!
GratefulOne
Member
The pump runs just fine. It is the 7.5 to 25 HP compressor that your going to have issues running
Cool thought i was the only solar powered extract artist out there.
Dave at Haskel
Active member
The pump runs just fine. It is the 7.5 to 25 HP compressor that your going to have issues running
I'm glad to hear the pump is running well!
I wish I had a solution to running without power for a compressor...
Dave
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/elctrical-motor-full-load-current-d_1499.html
http://www.elec-toolbox.com/usefulinfo/flamtrcharts.htm
Solar power is low voltage DC, and a 10 hp DC motor at 12V is 760 amps, so you would need an impressive solar array, or a large battery bank.
You would also need the electronics to step up that many amps, or an inverter to allow the use of an AC motor.
A horsepower is ~.75kW, so a wind generator would also need a large battery bank to keep up real time, or be in a windy location capable of supporting a 7.5kW+ generator.
Water is probably out because all the big chunks belong to the feds and you have to permit dams and such.
You could run a steam driven compressor, and stoke the firebox with hand split logs. Low carbon footprint if you also hand buck saw the logs, instead of using a chain saw, and cut only dead wood, but really bad from a smoke and CO2 standpoint when you burn them.
In the right locations, you could use geothermal for the steam.
The cleanest mostly off the grid would probably be a propane driven compressor, and the most compact a diesel driven one.
Check out the trailer mounted ones they use to drive jack hammers.
You could also use a combustion driven generator, but it would be more efficient to just drive the compressor and eliminate the losses in the middle.
Hee, hee, hee, snicker, snark, snort, a steam driven refrigerant recovery pump might be a slick solution.
Oh Daaave, except for the heat and seal compatibility issues, can you think of any reasons someone couldn't run a modified 59025 pump design on live steam instead of air?????
Lastly, if you have lots of athletic friends, consider a bicycle built for 38, at about 200 W per set of petals.
I've seen portable sawmills run using a flat belt off the back wheel of a jacked up Volkswagon, soooooo.............................
PS: I agree with green energy! We pay extra for it and encourage everyone to do so.
http://www.elec-toolbox.com/usefulinfo/flamtrcharts.htm
Solar power is low voltage DC, and a 10 hp DC motor at 12V is 760 amps, so you would need an impressive solar array, or a large battery bank.
You would also need the electronics to step up that many amps, or an inverter to allow the use of an AC motor.
A horsepower is ~.75kW, so a wind generator would also need a large battery bank to keep up real time, or be in a windy location capable of supporting a 7.5kW+ generator.
Water is probably out because all the big chunks belong to the feds and you have to permit dams and such.
You could run a steam driven compressor, and stoke the firebox with hand split logs. Low carbon footprint if you also hand buck saw the logs, instead of using a chain saw, and cut only dead wood, but really bad from a smoke and CO2 standpoint when you burn them.
In the right locations, you could use geothermal for the steam.
The cleanest mostly off the grid would probably be a propane driven compressor, and the most compact a diesel driven one.
Check out the trailer mounted ones they use to drive jack hammers.
You could also use a combustion driven generator, but it would be more efficient to just drive the compressor and eliminate the losses in the middle.
Hee, hee, hee, snicker, snark, snort, a steam driven refrigerant recovery pump might be a slick solution.
Oh Daaave, except for the heat and seal compatibility issues, can you think of any reasons someone couldn't run a modified 59025 pump design on live steam instead of air?????
Lastly, if you have lots of athletic friends, consider a bicycle built for 38, at about 200 W per set of petals.
I've seen portable sawmills run using a flat belt off the back wheel of a jacked up Volkswagon, soooooo.............................
PS: I agree with green energy! We pay extra for it and encourage everyone to do so.
