LEC, CMH, CDM Technical Information Sharing Thread

Hey all,

Just finished my first run with 4 LEC 630W fixtures. They were the nanolux brand dual 315s. Even with a couple plant issues (including pretty much losing one light to herms) and some burn, the 3 lights with viable cannabis under them produced 4 pounds. I was extremely impressed with these results especially seeing that the plants were not perfect and we could do even better!

Anyway I just wanted to start more of a master forum about growing under these types of lights. What have you learned? what are your results? What questions do you have and so on...

Currently we Veg under the LEC 4K bulbs and flower under the 3K bulbs.

I'll start the forum off with an initial inquiry. Has anyone seen the plants flinch or not respond well from moving them between spectrum bulbs. Just like in the example of my grow, from 4K-3K? Or from 2 630s to spreading them out under 4 630s? We do veg under the 3k for a week before flipping as well. Next round we will only spread them out under the 2 3K lights before turning on the additional 2.

Anyway just thought I'd get this party started. Contribute what you can. Blessings.

no idea about cmh lighting but ill sub and see what you got for us

pics or it dint happen

No Pics Last round. Unfortunately I have a flip phone still and the photos it takes are pretty grainy. Hoping to get a go pro going at some point though. If I do I'll definitely take some pics of this next round. They are on day 3, same set up although we are adding a four bulb T5 with replacement LED flower spectrum bulbs into the corner where it's a bit shady and we have a couple extra genetics we are testing .

I put in CMH the same year GE came out with their Ultra Max square wave ballast. The light has the best full spectrum balance I have found in the retail market.
But.
The light cannot be efficiently focused, no matter the reflector used, between 50% and 75% of the light is wasted. A 60 degree beam LED only wastes about a third, which is a real improvement.
But.
No infrared and not enough far red in LEDs, and neither CMH or LED contains proper UVB. Except Lumatix and their all UV $500 unit putting out 100 watts.

As a commercial grower since 2001 I have found using several sources of light gives the best combination of quality and rapid growth.

LEDs give the most growth per watt if the correct spectrum is used. CMH gives the best quality if intensity and temperature can be controlled. T5 fluorescent's are the only economical source of UVB at this time.
UVB seems essential in producing "creeper" weed, the stabilizing chemicals the plant uses for protection slow the absorption and metabolism of THC resulting in a slower onset and longer duration.
Far Red makes for solid buds and no hermaphrodites, the fixtures only became affordable in 2015.

The thread is labelled as tech, so:

The mix of lights at the currently affordable level is
Overhead grid:
CMH, 4000K, 10,000K, 1400 watts.
LED, mix of 'white' and single wavelength diodes, 3120 watts.
Side surround:
LED, passive with 144 watts of Far Red 'twilight' feature, 1500 watts total.
LED, Far Red stand alone, 200 watts.
T5, UVB, 324 watts of 10% UVB.

The 9' by 7' area is a five plant perpetual, harvests are twice a month.
When using high yield clones dialed in accurately the yields were 12 to 14 ounces per container (18" dia x 9" deep), two to five plants per container. About a pound a a half per month.
With seed plants the yields are 6 to 9 ounces per plant. Seed plants do not like to be in the same container so the monthly yield is under a pound per month.

That is the lighting and yields. Quite a few rooms and side by sides were done over the years.
No single source light met all the needs of marijuana plants. LEDs have no heat, HIDs have no efficiency, Fluorescents have huge gaps in spectrum and no efficiency.

Using the strong points of each blended over and around the plants cost just over $14,000 USD two years ago. This is a huge initial outlay, a similar set up in 2011 cost $17,000 USD so the price is coming down. I have found the useful life of LEDs to be four years. Both the CMH and Fluorescents get two years.
Bulbs are way cheaper than LED fixtures.

The photos are the bud room, the CMH is clustered at one end and the LEDs cover the rest. Side lighting surrounds the whole area.
The plants are mobile and moved towards the CMH as plants are harvested and new plants introduced.
The efficiency difference of CMH has 1400 watts over a single plant versus the LEDs using 3120 watts on four plants and still getting equal growth, hence the use of both. The quality of CMH buds justifies the high wattage, 600 of which is 10,000K finisher.

Spectrum and lux, that is all. Par is for advertising.
Cmh does it the easiest.
Nature of par is to exclude wavelengths. Par can take a hike.
They have a new par now, forgot the new name. I guess the old one wasn't accurate
Careful whose bible who read.

This is mostly for those looking to grow good herb easily. For setting yield records look elsewhere....parph..... Photosynthetic active radiation producing hay

Kinda kidding and kinda not

Have a good weekend..and don't take this post too seriously

I'll try and contribute a little to this thread when I have more time. Cmh is a really good light, probably the best for a small grower trying to grow his own plants/meds indoor with one light

Peace

I swapped out 6x 600mh/hps for 7x 315 cmh and will never look back. I get KILLER yields. 3.5 from 4x 315 for the last 4 runs.

Using enclosed 4'x4'x6-1/2' to 7' cabinets with axial 'muffin fans x 3 Up high and centered on 3 sides, and intake vents on 4 sides, I previously reached 1.25+ grams per watt with the better producers (in excess of 1.25 ounces/sq. ft.) using 400 hps for flowering. Two axials run on light timer per box, with one running 24/7 for air circulation in down time.

One box is 3.5'x3.5' and on casters, to permit mobility.

Boxes are painted inside with 'bright pure white' kitchen and bath latex enamel, quick-drying, low/no VOC, in either flat or satin finish. (*I've had good results in both cases). Having the light contained as it is, means light often lost to the nether-regions is reflected back onto the plants for better use of the energy used.

On the advice from an acquaintance, I switched to 315 cmh, and decided on the remote hood by Sun Systems (vertical bulb position), as they have what appears to be a better angle to the internal reflector, allowing for an ever so slightly more broad foot-print for the light than the Hydro-Farm LEC hoods do.

I'm currently shopping for PAR38 or similar in a flood-type LED, to suspend by stout lamp cord, through eye-bolts, in the corners of the ceiling of the box, as the lesser foot-print is visible to me.

Found some LED PAR38 plant bulbs on-line that, though a bit pricey, claim a far red spectrum.

Most of the PAR38 grow bulbs I've seen on-line either lack reviews altogether, or have questionable reviews.

Anyone have an idea the right distance away from the top of the canopy for LEC 630s? I've heard 2' and just recently 4' . I can keep the temps down regardless because we have plenty of AC just wondering if the burn I saw last run from having them too close.

I'm keeping 315s any where from 14"-20" for the most part. The only cabinet I saw anything that might have -initially- looked like burn was further distance than that, and likely was a combination of dying foliage/leaf in the tip of a ripening bud, nutrients, and/or ???

Other than that, everyone's happy as clams at the moment!

anecdotal:

switched from 4x 600w HPS's to 4X 315w ceramics and am happy with the move. Not going back to HPS. Run cooler, smaller fixtures, same yields.

I haven't completed a full-box run with 315s yet (just a handful of mothers that had been cloned from already, and I couldn't bring myself to kill them, so finished them, and dealt with mildly to moderately problematic soil at the same time).

According to the reading I did (mostly at another site), the productivity and quality of the 315s was likened to ~500+ watts of hps. Is this your finding? That it's not quite the output as a 600 hps, but greater than a 400 hps in re. to weight and quality?

As stated earlier, my only criticism thus far is the slightly narrower foot-print for the light when contrasted to my older digital 400s. And that can probably be addressed through several LED PAR38s in a far red color spectrum, hanging on individual lamp cords in the corners of each cabinet during bloom only, and will -still- suck less energy than the 400s did.

clown baby said:

anecdotal:

switched from 4x 600w HPS's to 4X 315w ceramics and am happy with the move. Not going back to HPS. Run cooler, smaller fixtures, same yields.

Click to expand...

I own 9 of the 315 LEC Sun System diamond series and I would totally recommend staying away from this particular model. I have 9 of them (240v model) and its really cool that you can daisy chain them but, also can be a HUUUGE pain in the ass when you run into issues with one. I have 3 of them hooked up to each 240 and then those are all wired into a time clock and then that is wired back into a 2 20 amp pull breaker. And one of my lights either has a dud ballast, bad connector, pinched wire etc.. because once or twiceish a week they trip when theyre supposed to turn on. This has been happening for around 2 months now and I still havent been able to pinpoint exactly which one it is, I also havent really tried too too much considering its only once or twice a week when my lights come on. Im pretty much always home when they come on, so it hasnt been the biggest issue. Anyways I contacted sun systems and they said theyll swap the one out no problem, too bad its not the easiest problem to pinpoint because it doesn't happen too frequently and I'm constantly perpetuating a harvest so I cant exactly take my lights out one by one and fire each one individually til one trips. I know it doesn't sound that hard to do but, its very tedious when you have to wait 10 minutes in between turning off/on cmh (not supposed to keep turning them on and off) and the problem doesnt happen everytime they fire.


Tldr: Anyways here I am 3 months later still experiencing electrical problems with my sun systems after paying near $4,000 for the units and havent received any help to troubleshoot except for them trying to tell me I dont have them wired properly. ( I 100% have them wired properly my best friend is an electrician and set everything up)
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moose eater said:

According to the reading I did (mostly at another site), the productivity and quality of the 315s was likened to ~500+ watts of hps. Is this your finding? That it's not quite the output as a 600 hps, but greater than a 400 hps in re. to weight and quality?

Click to expand...

I've been reading everything I can find on CMH and a few things seem clear:

1. CMH has the best spectrum for growing buds of any HID light currently on the market
Utah State University Spectral Analysis​

2. From the Utah State PDF, looks like 36% of the HPS output is in the Near Infrared range (710-850) that is not used by plants for growth. Not only does that power not translate to growth, but it also adds heat. The CMH has about 24% of it's output in Near IR. Standard MH has about about 21.5% of output in Near IR.

Although the Phillips AgroMax 3100 bulb does output light in a superior balance to other HID offerings currently on the market, the light is not somehow magical. People have made outrageous claims about the ability of the light to yield large dense buds at far lower levels than HPS or MH, and that just doesnt make sense. Even though HPS lacks a balanced spectrum and heats the room and the plant's surface with serious IR output, plants have the ability to take light energy gathered in one spectrum and use it to perform functions that the plant is looking for light in another spectrum to perform. YES. Plants are much happier under CMH than HPS, but not SO happy that they don't need minimum levels of light energy to perform and yield.

A reasonable case could be made that 44.5 watts of CMH = 50 watts of HPS in usable light based simply on the difference in % of unusable IR output. However, CMH veterans in IC have said that if the room can manage the heat, gains in yield can be made by trying to maintain the same 50 watts/sq ft number or greater with CMH.

Testing of available 315 watt bulbs on growershouse finds the Philips Elite Agro 315W T12 3100k bulb puts out significantly more PAR than other brands (including the phillips 4200k version of the same bulb.)

Thanks to both of you, Raho and BasementGrow.

I have Galaxy Cmh ballasts set up individually in 4'x4', with ONE 3.5'x3.5'. The smaller box has the original digital MH/HPS Hydro-Farm hood still, and a Phantom digital 400 watt ballast. The others are all Cmh, with Galaxy matched to separate Sun System hoods. Nothing wired together other than at the main circuit, where a couple of them are shared.

Again, the Sun System hoods offer what I believe is the better angle for distribution of light foot-print (compared to some other well-known 315 hoods), but still fail to offer the 'spread' the older 400 digital hoods and bulbs offered.

I've shopped for adjunct lighting to suspend by reinforced cord/chain in the corners of each area, looking specifically for LED PAR38 or similar in a flood-type bulb, and noted that claims of lumens for those that are designated as plant LED floods, in a far red spectrum, compared to the cooler end of the spectrum in random off-the-shelf PAR38 LED floods, -seems- to be about 600 (+/-) lumens brighter on the part of the plant-specific LED PAR38s.

But there's the old issue of manufacturers claims re. lumens (versus lux) not necessarily reflecting any significance for lack of a common standard of evaluation. Don't know if that's still the case

Then comes the price issues; anytime someone writes 'plant bulb' on a package, the price seems to triple or quadruple. Everybody wants a cut...No biggy. But.... The PAR38 floods designated for plant growth/bloom, in the far red, are about $45/bulb on-line (though the necessary hardware is fairly cheap). The off-the-shelf PAR38 LED floods in a 2,700 to 4,200 k spectrum are about a third or less of that, depending on where one shops.

I can plug 4 PAR38s into each cabinet, with an actual drain of about 12 to 15 watts each (48 to 60 watts additional, actual), and the equivalent incandescent output of 75 to 100 watts each, or 300 to 400 watts equivalent lighting, and still come in a bit below the electrical usage of the 400 digitals.

Also, thus far, I haven't noticed the (more seasonal/situational for me) static on the grow area radio that came as an added undesirable feature with the digital 400s.. but we'll see what transpires there.

We'll see what happens.

I've read a number of warnings re. the ill affects on people and critters re. the output of the 315 Cmh's, and while I've tended to the girls in the dark a time or three, I still primarily take care of them when they're lit. Never did tanning booths, so maybe it's a trade-off. ;^>). Supposedly the dual glass around the element is to prevent undesirable effects. Anyone familiar with the seriousness of this 'warning'?

Thanks.

And.. I'm back out to check the spare ribs in the smoker.. ;^>)

3x600hps = 3.25lbs average
4x315cmh = 3.5lbs average

Philips bulbs

DemonTrich said:

3x600hps = 3.25lbs average
4x315cmh = 3.5lbs average

Philips bulbs

Click to expand...

Thanks.

I was getting that, and a little bit more, with (4) 400 watt digital hps in the previously referenced cabinets, but the 315s are using (85 watts x 3, soon to be 4) less electricity, too. So if I can do similar weight, happier plants, etc., with a total of 340 less watts, then I'll be mostly content.

Time will tell.

I can also.manipulate my yields by what and how many strains I run. Darlins net, gg4, cheese, mob boss, strawberries.n cream all yield 1.5oz per gal pot size. All other strains are 1oz/gal pot size.

With the HPS #s, I was alternating widow bomb (bomb seeds), California Indica (Sensi Seeds), LSD (Barney's Farm), SLH (Greenhouse via The Attitude), Tijuana (Blim Burn), and a couple others, averaging 15.5 to 17.5 oz.'s per box, with a high point of 20.5 in a 4'x4' doing Cal. indica, typically keeping one strain per box, as it made watering, etc., easier..

That typically included the Classic 600 pots, x 16 per box, super-cropping style.

I was running a mostly organic soil, with supplements using mostly Fox Farms (and a bit of AN to less satisfactory results) in reduced concentration. Sometimes alternating to other sources, including some of the other older organics.

But I wasn't able to get back to the degree of sticky resin, or the solid long thick colas I once had with strictly using bat guano teas and Maxi-Crop back before our well went in, back during the magnetic ballast period..

I'm hoping that if I'm able to augment the 315s with the PAR38 LEDs as described above, I can stay in the 1 to 1-1/4 lb per box range, with increased resin, tighter buds, and shorter spans between bud sites.

Sorry haven't posted in awhile... Let's try to keep this thread CMH only. I am interested in LED technology but for this thread sticking to CDM, CMH, and LEC will help others find info on the topic thanks...

I've found out some awesome info about light distance from canopy for the LEC 630s... 48" is ideal 36" can work any closer you can have issues. This is direct info from the rep at Nanolux which is the brand of fixture we are using. After making adjustments our plants are jamming! I'm super impressed it'll be a bit more time before the final numbers but as for now things are cruising and I'm totally pleased. LEC all the way!!

ran 630w of growers choice 3kr bulb over a 3x3 flood table with 12 plants in it. I use jacks hydro nutes and a few microbe products. I should have vegged another 1-2 weeks or added 2-3 plants as I didnt expect the almost zero stretch i got with these lights. I pulled 1# on the nose. (edit) sorry for the giant pic. Thats sour boggle right there, i had 3 sour bogs and the rest was san-nies kollossus in this run.