Any Electrical Engineers Playing with LEDs?

How long do you estimate it will be before LED tech produces the same results as a 1K HPS, with only 150 watts? Anyone know what the maximum square footage of acceptable growth is, for the most efficient 150w LED out there today?

Anything even remotely helpful is greatly appreciated. Save

You had better ask a physicist not an engineer.
There are certain losses associated with each technology, because there are no white HPS or no white LEDs. It's done with phosphors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokes_shift

Remember with HPS only a third of the light is pointed at the canopy, the rest bounces around the reflector then the walls, it's very inefficient.

Here are some links to plant growth.
Low frequencey red does not carry enough energy to both break the water bond and weld the hydrogen to the carbon so the plant uses 700nm red to break the bond and 680nm red to hook up the carbon and hydrogen. Named the Emerson cycle by the guy that noticed.
High frequency violet is needed for clean breaks in larger organics without shaking the whole molecule apart, but the potency of these photons required strict limits.
Now the question becomes how many photons in the correct ratios can be emitted per watt of input energy.

A Quantum Flux meter counts the photons but not the wavelength. A 1000 umols of mostly red have just over half the energy of 1000 umols of violet, but neither will help the plant much without the frequencies the plant craves.
An HPS puts out half again more photons than mixed vapor lamps but very little in the higher frequencies, slowing large molecule formation during flower. Orange versus full spectrum results in about a week extra time.

LEDs are on a par with MH for photons versus input, but their ability to put out any combination of wavelengths matches the growth curve to any other light source.
But photon counts are photon counts and using a tenth of the input will not provide the minimum needed to match the growth of the same light at ten time the intensity.
If the light is tailored specifically to the plant it will still lack the push necessary.

I can gear down my bicycle until the hill is not a problem, but it will take hours longer than the motorcycle regardless of relative efficiency.

The last link is a bit technical, it involves UV and this very technical aspect of UV and plant interaction is why there is so much conflict about effects and intensity levels.
https://plantphys.info/plant_physiology/light.shtml
https://plantphys.info/plant_physiology/phytochrome.shtml
https://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12915-015-0156-y

EDIT: These are links I have used for years and still do, but when posted here and clicked on I get a privacy warning and cannot connect. Past threads with these links had no problem, is it windows 10? Not overly tech with computers so I am WTF? on this.

subbed

Phaeton said:

Here are some links to plant growth.
Low frequencey red does not carry enough energy to both break the water bond and weld the hydrogen to the carbon so the plant uses 700nm red to break the bond and 680nm red to hook up the carbon and hydrogen. Named the Emerson cycle by the guy that noticed.
High frequency violet is needed for clean breaks in larger organics without shaking the whole molecule apart, but the potency of these photons required strict limits.
Now the question becomes how many photons in the correct ratios can be emitted per watt of input energy.

A Quantum Flux meter counts the photons but not the wavelength. A 1000 umols of mostly red have just over half the energy of 1000 umols of violet, but neither will help the plant much without the frequencies the plant craves.
An HPS puts out half again more photons than mixed vapor lamps but very little in the higher frequencies, slowing large molecule formation during flower. Orange versus full spectrum results in about a week extra time.

LEDs are on a par with MH for photons versus input, but their ability to put out any combination of wavelengths matches the growth curve to any other light source.
But photon counts are photon counts and using a tenth of the input will not provide the minimum needed to match the growth of the same light at ten time the intensity.
If the light is tailored specifically to the plant it will still lack the push necessary.

I can gear down my bicycle until the hill is not a problem, but it will take hours longer than the motorcycle regardless of relative efficiency.

The last link is a bit technical, it involves UV and this very technical aspect of UV and plant interaction is why there is so much conflict about effects and intensity levels.
https://plantphys.info/plant_physiology/light.shtml
https://plantphys.info/plant_physiology/phytochrome.shtml
https://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12915-015-0156-y

EDIT: These are links I have used for years and still do, but when posted here and clicked on I get a privacy warning and cannot connect. Past threads with these links had no problem, is it windows 10? Not overly tech with computers so I am WTF? on this.

Click to expand...

Awesome! This actually answered my question quite well. Greatly appreciated.

As for the warnings, it looks like the site quit paying for commercial SSL certificates. No worries, you can force your browser past them by selecting the correct options.

Great contribution Phaeton!

Cheers

Arf said:

You had better ask a physicist not an engineer.
There are certain losses associated with each technology, because there are no white HPS or no white LEDs. It's done with phosphors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokes_shift

Remember with HPS only a third of the light is pointed at the canopy, the rest bounces around the reflector then the walls, it's very inefficient.

Click to expand...

There I go, not being as specific as I should. lol

The electrical engineers are the ones who build the drivers for LEDs. You're correct, I'm not aware of many EEs working on building the led chips themselves.

Oh yeah... EEs are definitely building these chips... Or at least maintaining & improving the equipment (tools) that are used for such.

Anyway,
With the figures you rolled out...
It aint gonna happen any time soon.

I think I've seen LEDs using about 60% of the power of a 1K HID & delivering a similar amount of PAR.

Course... I haven't really looked at LEDS much in the last 2 or 3 years... Only pasing glances due to prices.

Phaeton said:

EDIT: These are links I have used for years and still do, but when posted here and clicked on I get a privacy warning and cannot connect. Past threads with these links had no problem, is it windows 10? Not overly tech with computers so I am WTF? on this.

Click to expand...

There has been a quiet campaign over the past year or so to force all websites onto encrypted HTTPS protocols and certificates, throwing up obstacles for web surfers in an attempt to shame websites into complying. plantphys.info apparently doesn't use HTTPS in the way Google wants them to, or has a certificate expired or mismatched. You can push through it on Chrome by clicking on "ADVANCED" in the lower left and then on "Proceed to plantphys.info (unsafe)."

Microsoft Edge also does the same thing, you can click on "Details" and then "Go on to the webpage (Not recommended)."

LED's can not yet achieve near the efficiency need to replace a 1000w with a 150 watts, that would require efficiencies of at least 667%.
Right now LED's are around 200 lm/w while a 1000w HPS is about 140 ln/w. See below.

Too achieve what you desire an LED would have to produce 1334 lm/w which is not yet physically achievable yet due to thermal dynamics and heat transfer properties available to date.

Right now based on current technology a good Samsung LM561C diode pcb design with 700w should be able to replace a 1000w HPS today.

I know 800w of Samsung LM561C diode board can perform equally well in a 4x4 area same as an hps setup.

I have designed a 200w board that delivers at both 200w max and 100w minimum. It is called a GrowGreen 200w board. I am adding a second board of 75w of Deep Red 650nm and Royal Blue 460nm diodes to fill out the color spectrum for better plant response. I am also adding UVA of 385nm for improved flavors, colors, and taste.


High Presssure Sodium (HPS) bulbs
Lumen Watt lm/watt Kelvin Hours Manufacturer, Name
140000 1000 140.0 2100 24000 Philips C1000S52 Ceramalux
130000 1000 130.0 2100 24000 Sylvania LU1000 Lumalux
130000 940 138.3 2100 24000 IwasakiEyeSunluxUltraAceMHcnv)
90000 600 150.0 2100 24000 Philips C600S106 Ceramalux
84000 600 140.0 2100 18000 Sylvania LU600 Planta
53000 430 123.3 2100 16000 Philips Son T Agro 430W
51500 430 119.8 2100 18000 Sylvania LU430 Planta
50000 400 125.0 2100 24000 Philips C400S51 Ceramalux
50000 400 125.0 2100 24000 Sylvania LU400 Lumalux
47500 360 131.9 2100 24000 Philips C360S51/EW Ceramalux
45000 360 125.0 2100 24000 IwasakiEyeSunluxUltraAceMHcnv)
29000 250 116.0 2100 24000 Sylvania LU250 Lumalux
28500 250 114.0 2100 24000 Philips C250S50 Ceramalux
27500 225 122.2 2100 24000 Philips C225S50/EW Ceramalux
22000 200 110.0 <2100 24000 Sylvania LU200 Lumalux
16000 150 106.7 <2100 24000 Sylvania LU150 Lumalux
6300 70 90.0 <2100 24000 Sylvania LU70 Lumalux
http://www.weedfarmer.com/cannabis/lighting_guide.php

Great information! TY

So many little differences between the two, so far to go yet. Wow. I greatly appreciate the information you guys are dropping here, I know it takes a lot of time and work to get it.

Right now Luxeon is leading the pack but folks have not heard of them because of focus on Samsung.

However Luxeon is the industry leader in Horticulture LED lighting. Luxeon has the SunPlus 20 and SunPlus 35 series designed specifically for horticulture. They produce four colors Deep Red 650nm, Far Red 700nm, Royal Blue 460nm and Lime 420nm, considered the most powerful horticulture diode to date.

I am having a 75w and 125w pcb boards made. The first is a two channel Deep Red and Royal Blue separate channels, and the second adds two more channels, one for Far Red, and another for UVA. Each board is designed to be used in conjunction with either COB's, QB's, or GG boards to add the four spectrum missing from all four diode lines, whgich increases growth, terpines, taste, and color enhancements.

it is not just watts it is also spectrum. Having the balance of spectrum and power is what makes the best lights while keeping the power consumption down, otherwise why not use hps tried and true, proven to work well.

I beleive the Samsung LM516C diode in the right array and proper spacing is closer to 50%. At 510w from the wall you can get the same output as a 1000w HPS single ended fixture at under 1800 btu’s. That’s pretty damn efficient. Not 150w but nearly half is pretty good. Add some small far deep/reds and you have a 640w powerhouse that rivals 1k DE’s at half the power consumption and heat as a DE.