800W Octagon - starting & need help

ericsson · Feb 22, 2010

A up!
Not long ago I finished building my vertical octagon, using the DIY guide placed here by El Bastido. Instead of ABS pipes (which required gluing together) I went for grey PVC, which allowed me to add more grow sites and stay at pretty much the same hight (no need for the 2 ¾" couplings on each joint). So, it's gone up from 56 to 98. I want to run it on 2 x 400W Cooltubes. This is it:

I've been asking questions in the original DIY thread, not too much movement there though. Now, as I want to get this thing going - hope you guy's will give me a hand.

For the first things on my mind ("you are always on my mind.." :dance013:

):
1 - should the WHOLE thing get filled with hydroton - with the bottom as well, or will just filling the tubes be fine (I was thinking of some sort of round plastic gratings / strainers on each exit of the bottom "T" joints to prevent the hydroton from faling out of the columns and thus - filling the bottom). Or, the second option is filling everything and placing the gratings/strainers on both ends of the drain pipes (so that the the hydroton doesn't fall into my res) . What do ya think?

2 - about the watering schedule, El Bastido wrote that he'll go for 1min on 5min off. But we never found out did that work well for his setup. Is 1 on / 5 off a good starting point? I was also thinking of 2m on / 10 off (less on and off's every day).

3 - After a "test run" of this empty fucker I found that the water pressure of the stream coming from the sprinklers isn't all that big (it's not dripping, but it isn't a super-spray either), is this any issue (I assume that it will flow down and all round the hydroton anyway..)?

4 - I know that the hydroton needs soaking and good rinsing out. I've also read that it tends to raise the pH level (hence the soaking) - should I assume it will do so, and go for the "pH low to high" method and start at around 5.5 and let it go up till 6.1 - with what pH do you guy's usually start off?

5 - how to tell when it's time to change out the res, as I'm a bit confused - some say every week, other's every two weeks, and on the other hand - some keep topping up their res with plain water untill the first signs of underfeeding. With 98 plants in the system I'd think they'll eat up the food pretty quick - will trying out a every 2 weeks res change be ok?

6 - last (but not least

) I understand that after each run (hopefully, I'll get there

) I'll have to take this SOB apart, get all they hydroton cleaned out as sterilised - as well as the tubes themselves? And this EVERY 9-10 weeks?? :yoinks:

Oh, and I almost forgot - I'm trying to figure out is it possible (woth it) to set up a mother/clone box to get those 98 clones every 9-10 weeks - how many mothers would I have to keep to get it done? I'm counting about a weeks veg [after clones root] in the octagon, and 8 weeks flower? About the clones, after they'er rooted (probably in rockwool), would you say that 1 weeks veg in the octagon will be enough / too short or too long?

Guess "thats all" for today - I'll be thankfull for any help or advice!
Stay safy dudes!
Eric

weedsticks · Feb 22, 2010

ericsson said:
1 - should the WHOLE thing get filled with hydroton - with the bottom as well, or will just filling the tubes be fine (I was thinking of some sort of round plastic gratings / strainers on each exit of the bottom "T" joints to prevent the hydroton from faling out of the columns and thus - filling the bottom). Or, the second option is filling everything and placing the gratings/strainers on both ends of the drain pipes (so that the the hydroton doesn't fall into my res) . What do ya think?

Yes, put the grates into the bottom of the vertical tubes. You don't need to fill your collection tubes with hydroton. I don't know where you're located but a lot of hardware stores in the US have PVC drain fittings that actually fit inside PVC. I'd use one of those.

ericsson said:
2 - about the watering schedule, El Bastido wrote that he'll go for 1min on 5min off. But we never found out did that work well for his setup. Is 1 on / 5 off a good starting point? I was also thinking of 2m on / 10 off (less on and off's every day).

I could be wrong but I'm under the impression that hydroton always contains some oxygen so it might be hard to over water. I would fill one column with hydroton and run the system until you feel that the bottom plant site of that column is wet. Use that as your starting on time. The off periods may need to change as the plants get bigger and use more H2O

ericsson said:
3 - After a "test run" of this empty fucker I found that the water pressure of the stream coming from the sprinklers isn't all that big (it's not dripping, but it isn't a super-spray either), is this any issue (I assume that it will flow down and all round the hydroton anyway..)?

Yup. Having a fine mist wouldn't matter as soon as it hit the top of the hydroton filled column, right?

ericsson said:
4 - I know that the hydroton needs soaking and good rinsing out. I've also read that it tends to raise the pH level (hence the soaking) - should I assume it will do so, and go for the "pH low to high" method and start at around 5.5 and let it go up till 6.1 - with what pH do you guy's usually start off?

Hydroton is pH neutral. You're only washing it to remove clay dust and moisten the medium for the first time. However if you put that much wet hydroton into the system you made the water that is stored in the hydroton will dilute your nutrient solution and change the pH. So you can ether soak the hydroton in a water bath that has the correct pH or watch your systems pH closely for a few days after you start a run.

ericsson said:
5 - how to tell when it's time to change out the res, as I'm a bit confused - some say every week, other's every two weeks, and on the other hand - some keep topping up their res with plain water untill the first signs of underfeeding. With 98 plants in the system I'd think they'll eat up the food pretty quick - will trying out a every 2 weeks res change be ok?

I'd recommend checking out a few threads on the Lucas formula. You can do what they call addbacks which would save some cash on nutrients but if you've never grown before swaping out the whole rez every 2 weeks might be a good idea and less complex.

ericsson said:
6 - last (but not least ) I understand that after each run (hopefully, I'll get there ) I'll have to take this SOB apart, get all they hydroton cleaned out as sterilised - as well as the tubes themselves? And this EVERY 9-10 weeks??

Yup, you can't leave dead roots in those tubes. I've never had to clean that much hydroton at once but I'd think you could get a 35gal plastic food barrel and a large paint mixing paddle (most pro panting stores have them for people who buy paint by the 55gal drum :noway:

). Just fill up the barrel with some water and peroxide and go to town mixing.

I tried making an aero version of this setup for the very same reason but I cut corners and it ended up leaking.

ericsson said:
Oh, and I almost forgot - I'm trying to figure out is it possible (woth it) to set up a mother/clone box to get those 98 clones every 9-10 weeks - how many mothers would I have to keep to get it done? I'm counting about a weeks veg [after clones root] in the octagon, and 8 weeks flower? About the clones, after they'er rooted (probably in rockwool), would you say that 1 weeks veg in the octagon will be enough / too short or too long?

You're looking at this the wrong way. You are already going to have 96 mother plants.

What most people do who run systems of this size do is take clones from the plants in flower a week or two after the systems been flipped to 12/12. Making a bubble cloner or 2 or 3 or 4 which can take 20+ plants is trivial. Make sure to take more clones then you need because some won't root in the timeframe you need. I've been adding 1tsp/gal clonex to my cloner and as long as the water is kept at 78-80 degrees it roots 95% of my cuttings in a week.

The tricky part to systems where you take clones from flower is the timing factor. You want the plants that are in veg to be the correct size when they get kicked into flower so as to not overgrow the system you made. Turning back the veg lighting to 18/6 or lowering the amount of nutes your feeding them can both be used to control growth.

ericsson · Feb 23, 2010

Thanks for the rep. ws :thank you:

weedsticks said:
I could be wrong but I'm under the impression that hydroton always contains some oxygen so it might be hard to over water. I would fill one column with hydroton and run the system until you feel that the bottom plant site of that column is wet. Use that as your starting on time. The off periods may need to change as the plants get bigger and use more H2O

So, for starter's you'd say the 5min off should be fine or perhaps too long?

weedsticks said:
Yup. Having a fine mist wouldn't matter as soon as it hit the top of the hydroton filled column, right?

Well, thats kinda what I was thinking, just wanted to make sure

weedsticks said:
Hydroton is pH neutral. You're only washing it to remove clay dust and moisten the medium for the first time. However if you put that much wet hydroton into the system you made the water that is stored in the hydroton will dilute your nutrient solution and change the pH. So you can ether soak the hydroton in a water bath that has the correct pH or watch your systems pH closely for a few days after you start a run.

Already go it washed and rinced properly. How long before actual use should it get pH balanced? Would you recommend doing this (will fighting with the pH of properly washed out hydroton be a real PITA and take long)?

weedsticks said:
I'd recommend checking out a few threads on the Lucas formula. You can do what they call addbacks which would save some cash on nutrients but if you've never grown before swaping out the whole rez every 2 weeks might be a good idea and less complex.

Before I've read about the Lucas formula, I got the full range of Hesi Hydro (loads of it - over 1gal. bottles). Now I'm not sure what to do - put Hesi in the corner (seems stupid), order GH and start off with Lucas (if thats the only option to let my planst survive

I'll do it)? For the first few runs I guess I'll go with the every-2weeks-change.

weedsticks said:
Yup, you can't leave dead roots in those tubes. I've never had to clean that much hydroton at once but I'd think you could get a 35gal plastic food barrel and a large paint mixing paddle (most pro panting stores have them for people who buy paint by the 55gal drum ). Just fill up the barrel with some water and peroxide and go to town mixing.

Fun it shall be :greenstars:

weedsticks said:
I tried making an aero version of this setup for the very same reason but I cut corners and it ended up leaking.

Aeroponics is way too much for me at the moment. This is my first hydro attempt, and I know it's even easier to fuck up your bushed in aero. Anyway - how did you convert this thing into an aero setup, and couldn't you get those leaks sealed??

weedsticks said:
You're looking at this the wrong way. You are already going to have 96 mother plants.

What most people do who run systems of this size do is take clones from the plants in flower a week or two after the systems been flipped to 12/12. Making a bubble cloner or 2 or 3 or 4 which can take 20+ plants is trivial. Make sure to take more clones then you need because some won't root in the timeframe you need. I've been adding 1tsp/gal clonex to my cloner and as long as the water is kept at 78-80 degrees it roots 95% of my cuttings in a week.

The tricky part to systems where you take clones from flower is the timing factor. You want the plants that are in veg to be the correct size when they get kicked into flower so as to not overgrow the system you made. Turning back the veg lighting to 18/6 or lowering the amount of nutes your feeding them can both be used to control growth.

Thanks for the tips. Im just wondering - if I start from seed (I'll go for rockwool cubes) I'm counting about 1 weeks veg until the roots outgrow the cube and are long enough to go into the octagon and be able to "reach" water. After that, I'd say about another week in the octagon and flip to 12/12. I'm not sure, that after this period (in the best scenario it would be 2 weeks veg [well, not full 2 weeks - starting from sprout] and one weeks flower) I'd be able to take clones in any other way then snipping the main stem (which, if every single one rooted would give me 98 clones) - wouldn't that be too much of a cut-down, leaving me with tiny little plants if flowering? Maybe I just can't picture it right..

weedsticks · Feb 23, 2010

ericsson said:
So, for starter's you'd say the 5min off should be fine or perhaps too long?

I'd think might be a little short stopping for only 5 min but I've never run that system. In most flood and drain systems with hydroton in netcups the period between floods is a few hours for what it's worth. Your first 2-3 rounds are going to be done finetuning this system.

ericsson said:
Already go it washed and rinced properly. How long before actual use should it get pH balanced? Would you recommend doing this (will fighting with the pH of properly washed out hydroton be a real PITA and take long)?

Ahh, I see where you're hung up. When I said pH neutral I meant it in the sense that the hydroton won't impart it's own pH onto your nutrient solution. If it's rinsed and dry when you put it into the system then it should be fine.

ericsson said:
Before I've read about the Lucas formula, I got the full range of Hesi Hydro (loads of it - over 1gal. bottles). Now I'm not sure what to do - put Hesi in the corner (seems stupid), order GH and start off with Lucas (if thats the only option to let my planst survive I'll do it)? For the first few runs I guess I'll go with the every-2weeks-change.

Ya, I think a lot of people get hung up on the Lucas forumla being something that can only be done with GH nuts. I'm running it right now using Botanicare nuts. All it is is a ratio of N-P-K and trace minerals. This site breaks it down pretty well: http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm

Fun it shall be :greenstars:

ericsson said:
Aeroponics is way too much for me at the moment. This is my first hydro attempt, and I know it's even easier to fuck up your bushed in aero. Anyway - how did you convert this thing into an aero setup, and couldn't you get those leaks sealed??

Well, I used cheap drainage PVC for the towers with no 'Y' pieces, just the straight tube. Then I used my heat gun to heat up one side of the PVC and make an indentation in it with a flat piece of metal. The goal was to have the pipe be notched every 8 inches

------V--------V--------V--------V--------V--------V--------
--------------------------------------------------------------

Then drill a hole in the flat part of one of the notches to put a netcup in. There was a few problems with hole placement leading to leaking but one could easily make a system like yours that was aero or convert yours later after a few runs. My goal was to have the towers be movable so i could run the first 1/3 of 12/12 under high output fluorescents and save some money. If I had the space I'd either be running what you're doing or setup something like Heath's flooded tube vertical.

ericsson said:
Thanks for the tips. Im just wondering - if I start from seed (I'll go for rockwool cubes) I'm counting about 1 weeks veg until the roots outgrow the cube and are long enough to go into the octagon and be able to "reach" water. After that, I'd say about another week in the octagon and flip to 12/12. I'm not sure, that after this period (in the best scenario it would be 2 weeks veg [well, not full 2 weeks - starting from sprout] and one weeks flower) I'd be able to take clones in any other way then snipping the main stem (which, if every single one rooted would give me 98 clones) - wouldn't that be too much of a cut-down, leaving me with tiny little plants if flowering? Maybe I just can't picture it right..

I'm going to make some assumptions so don't get mad if I'm wrong but it sounds like you've never grown before. Nothing wrong with that, I was in your boat before too, we all have to learn sometime, but a system this complex might not be the best place to start for great results.

I really wouldn't run a system like this from seed because there are too many variables to contend with. What happens if you get some males/hermies? You can't yank em, the roots with rot. On top of that you have the various growth rates and finishing times of seed to deal with. Even if it's the same strain there are going to be some differences. Most people aren't running IBLs, the few that actually exist, and most other strains are too inconsistent from seed.

What you're going to want to do is grow out your seeds until they start showing sex toss your males and hermies then take your best 12 moms and take clones from them. Keep the moms.

Then fill up each vert tube with clones from one mother and see which tube has the best weight/high/cure/bag apppeal at the end of your run. Then uses only clones from that mother on the next run.

GL

ericsson · Feb 24, 2010

weedsticks said:
I'm going to make some assumptions so don't get mad if I'm wrong but it sounds like you've never grown before. Nothing wrong with that, I was in your boat before too, we all have to learn sometime, but a system this complex might not be the best place to start for great results.

No pobs man - all I got behind me is 1 outdoor and 2 indoor dirts (1 was a disaster [I tired a SOG], the last one not bad - normal size pots and normal size plants), so maybe not "never grown" bo not far from that

weedsticks said:
I really wouldn't run a system like this from seed because there are too many variables to contend with. What happens if you get some males/hermies? You can't yank em, the roots with rot. On top of that you have the various growth rates and finishing times of seed to deal with. Even if it's the same strain there are going to be some differences. Most people aren't running IBLs, the few that actually exist, and most other strains are too inconsistent from seed.

I got 100 feminised seeds, so there shouldn't be any males, guess a few hermies would be possible. I bought 2 strains from GHSC with the same finishing times (I know you can't look at that, but I thought if it would be lets say a weeks difference between them, I could either chop the ready ones and try to leave the roots inside or just over ripen one of them and see what happens). Just a newbie thought, so perhaps it's totally stupid.

weedsticks said:
What you're going to want to do is grow out your seeds until they start showing sex toss your males and hermies then take your best 12 moms and take clones from them. Keep the moms.

Then fill up each vert tube with clones from one mother and see which tube has the best weight/high/cure/bag apppeal at the end of your run. Then uses only clones from that mother on the next run.

GL

So, I'd have to do another full-run soil grow (I was planing to keep the mother plants in soil). Considering, that I have 100 beens, this would be a hell of an operation. Then again - those would have to be 12 BIG mother plants to chop 98 clones off them every 10 weeks, so maybe having some more wouldn't be stupid? Eh, now I don't know what the fu*c to do at all :crazy:

Ps. So you would advise to go Lucas with the Hesi, instead of using the full range I have and going with the charts?

Take care and thanks again,
Eric

Relentless · Feb 24, 2010

awesome. ill be keeping an eye on this.. been running two 600s,vertically for a while now.. but ive been thinking about building a cage like yours..

FreezerBoy · Feb 24, 2010

Wowser!

Very ambitious. Break a stem.

FB

choch · Feb 25, 2010

ericsson said:
No pobs man - all I got behind me is 1 outdoor and 2 indoor dirts (1 was a disaster [I tired a SOG], the last one not bad - normal size pots and normal size plants), so maybe not "never grown" bo not far from that

I got 100 feminised seeds, so there shouldn't be any males, guess a few hermies would be possible. I bought 2 strains from GHSC with the same finishing times (I know you can't look at that, but I thought if it would be lets say a weeks difference between them, I could either chop the ready ones and try to leave the roots inside or just over ripen one of them and see what happens). Just a newbie thought, so perhaps it's totally stupid.

Not stupid at all.

I'd put all of one strain in each tube, that way you can harvest the whole tube when done and leave other whole tubes containing the second strain to finish up with no dead roots in them. Even running all seeds of one strain the finish times will vary, but hopefully not as much as between strains.

Carboy · Feb 25, 2010

Nice job on the construction.
What height and width dimensions did it finish out?
Is that the same gray pipe that is sold as conduit for electric?
This will really be a fun one to follow. Best of luck.
CB

ericsson · Mar 1, 2010

Hi there, thanks for bumping in. If all goes well, I'll throw the beens on rockwool at the end of the week. About the dimentions - I'll give you the exact measures later on today or tommorow. I used PVC drain pipes which could be bought in all the big hardware stores. Still a few questions above left unanswered, I'm gonna need your help here so tune in guys!

B safe,
Eric

choch · Mar 1, 2010

I'd suggest reading up on cage grows to learn about watering cycles and other tips.

GardenCaress · Mar 4, 2010

oooo... get plants in there and show us

anybody got some pics of this kind of thing in a closet? :rasta:

alflud · Mar 4, 2010

This looks to be an excellent setup ericsson. I'll be watching with interest. There's one thing I would say man, make a manifold for the feed lines at the top so that each vertical run will get fed the same amount at the same time. Also, using such thick tubing is what's cutting down on your water pressure. If you were to use 1/2 tubing from rez to manifold and then equal lengths of 1/4 inch tubing from the manifold to each vertical run you'd see a lot more pressure. The way you have it set up now is cool - it'll work for sure but you'll need the pump on for that much longer in order to make sure that the end run will get properly fed. Smaller lines and a manifold setup will basically save you having to have your pump on for so long.

Good luck anyway dude :yes:

Looking forward to seeing how this goes

ericsson · Mar 17, 2010

Hey guys!
Thanks 4 all the posts

I made a small modification of the feeding line, now it's attached in the center of the octagon and the water pressure is pretty much the same in each tube.

It's a bit wobbly at the moment, as I had to dismantle it a bit. Also made a hanger for my cooltubes. Couldn't fuck around with the tubing size, as the "T" joints with the sprinklers are made or a certain size and it would be a PITA to adapt them for a smaller diameter tubing (possible leaks etc). It's much better then it was, so I suppose it'll be fine. As for the watering times - I'm thinking of starting off with 2min's on / 10min's off - any opinions?
I popped the 100 GHSC femi beens, 93 sprouted:

90 emerged from the rockwool:

After they all came out (yesterday), I transplanted the cubes (fearing alge) to their netcups and filled in the empty spaces with hydroton. They are under a 400W MH which is a safe distance away. How long should I keep them in the box under the MH? Not sure wether to veg them in the box and throw then into the octagon when they are ready for flowering, or should I let them veg in the octagon for a while and alow them to "adapt" to the new environment? How big should I let them grow before switching? I forgot to mesure my octagon, but as I mentioned - it's similar to the sizes El Bastido had (I'll try to get the exact dimentions today).

As for feeding - my tap water is 0.8 EC which is too high for adding any nutes, but they are doing ok for now (just plain water, when I added the full Hesi hydro range it went up to 1.3 - 1.4 EC [after balancing PH to 5.5). I guess my only option is a RO set and I have to be quick. Before they go into to octagon, I'll get I hold of some destilled water for hand watering, as I think soon they'll need the first light nute solution. Will starting from 1.0 EC be fine, or should I keep it even below that for the first week (they are about 2-3days now, most of then poked out yesterday and on monday).

Stay safe!
Eric

GardenCaress · Mar 17, 2010

that badass oc-Tow-gawn and no RO? I'm pretty new to this but it seems like you've already taken this thing to the next level. Give 'em some RO!

Carboy · Mar 17, 2010

The high EC of your water isn't a problem in itself. The problem is you don't know what is contained in that EC. In my area, you could bet your sweet ass that it would be calcium. Other places could be iron. You can subtract the starting EC from the EC after the nutes to get the value of nutrient strength but then the extra can cause havoc getting your PH right and stable. That's the advantage of RO --- whatever is in there is what you put in. Long story short, an RO system is good money spent. Check ebay, imagine you can get one plenty good for 100 bucks.
If it looks like you need it, you can always T into your mainline more places, just like you already did w/ the one. Think your 2 on 10 off water schedule sounds like a good place to start w/ hydroton.
I'd keep 'em out of the octo until you have roots that would reach into the main upright. Keep putting them in larger (mainly taller) containers till then. That's just an opinion.
Looks like ya got it going your way !!
CB

ericsson · Mar 25, 2010

Hey Guys!
The youngsters are just over 1 week at the moment (still in rockwool, but the roots are getting out through to bottom and sides by now), so I hope to transplant them into the octagon this weekend. Unluckly, the exhaust fan in their current grow box had a failure, the temps when up to around 32*C (90*F) and about 10 of them didn't make it, so I'm left with around 80 for this run. After replacing the fan the temps are around 28*C (82*F) during lights on and 24*C(75*F) lights off. I'm hand watering them with RO water balanced to 5.5-5.6PH and 0.7EC. I've noticed that on a few plants the leaves are yellowing on the edges - could this be caused by the high temps they suffered, or is 0.7 EC not enough any more (or, perhaps - still too much??). I'll try to get some pics before the get relocated. Im having problems with keeping the RH above 28% with the lights on - the 400W is a PITA.

Now, a few questions:
- if I get to "round 2" I'll also have to start from seeds, as I have not mother plants at this time and having in minde, that I have 80 out of 100 I want to use them all for the 1 run to see how it goes. Anyway, I was thinking of starting the mother plants from seed so I'll have around 4 months for them to grow before taking the first clones. How many mother plants would you say I'll need, to take 100 clones every 2 months in the future??

- The second question is - as I've started from seeds, I'm not sure how big should I let them grow before switching to 12/12? I was thinking of another 7 days after tranplant (if it would work out this weekend), but I really haven't got a clue..

Thanks 4 looking, B safe!
Eric

ericsson · Mar 29, 2010

Anybody here?!

Here are a few pics of the plants, which are now about 12days old:

As you can see, there is some yellowing on the leaves and I was hoping someone can help me out - could this have been caused by the heat / stress issues, or it the EC too high / low?

Still couldn't transplant them, as my RO set got lost in transport and I think I'll fill the res with tap water, leave it for 36h and run them in it untill the RO arrives. How much longer would you veg them? I'm also thinking of topping the plants - is it a good idea having im mind that they had (or still are having) some problems?

Can anyone help with the number of mother plants neccessary for my system (I know it depends of how many clones will root etc.) but lets say what would be the average numer of plants needed.

As soon as the octagon starts running I'll keep ya posted.

E.

Dr happy · Mar 29, 2010

hello
great thread !!
i am buying tickets for the first row !!!

about the modification you have made...
i think that if you make a water ring the pressure will be even

thumbs up

Gunnarguchi · Mar 30, 2010

ericsson said:
A up!
Not long ago I finished building my vertical octagon, using the DIY guide placed here by El Bastido. Instead of ABS pipes (which required gluing together) I went for grey PVC, which allowed me to add more grow sites and stay at pretty much the same hight (no need for the 2 ¾" couplings on each joint). So, it's gone up from 56 to 98. I want to run it on 2 x 400W Cooltubes. This is it:

Stay safy dudes!
Eric

very nice
definably some inspiration to grab here for my coming vertical

tnx a lot Eric :jump:

im on a very tight budget so i might do it with some wire mesh covered with plastic or similar but thees sure inspiration to get from your very nice setup

800W Octagon - starting & need help

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