Malted Barley, Fresh mixed soil, crazy Co2 rates?

Just set up a new indoor room, still trying to dial in all the quirks and have ran into a strange situation.


We filled the room with apx 7 yards or 1400 gallons of freshly mixed organic soil. Pretty rich mix, about 20% compost, 20% worm, and a lot of Blood meal, Kelp, Alfalfa, Calphos, Lime, Gypsum, Oyster, Green Sand, Bat Guano, and Malted Barley.

Used apx 16,000 ml of malted barley.


So now, I hooked up a brand new Co2 controller. It read 2500 ppm Co2. Figured it needed calibrating. Removed it, calibrated it outside, worked fine. Brought it back in the next day, after watering in 1/4th of the soil. Now the Co2 controller is reading 3400 ppm. So I dug up an old Co2 controller, hooked it up, and it read even higher 4000+ ppm.


So I am trying to figure out why there is an ungodly amount of Co2 in the room. Going to soapy water test all the tanks next, but I figured I would check with you organic guys to see if anyone has any experience with either really rich soil giving off Co2, malted barley, or the combination of them releasing the Co2.

Hopefully it is the soil, and it will release a bunch then stop, but it seems odd to me.

Any input is welcome and appreciated,

Thanks,

Mr^^

I don't know how big your room is, but the fermentation of the barley would cause a noticeable spike. You have a large pile of biologically active material, of course it's going to off gas a lot of CO2. You only need 1 cubic yard of material to start hot composting a pile. I certainly wouldn't plant anything in that soil, it's probably very hot temperature wise. Did you let it cook at all? It may have got a little bump from oxygen being introduced when you moved it.

Transplanted a row last night, then a second row this night. Last nights showed a little shock at lights on, but seemed to be coming back around after a couple hours.To top it off, both beds were each watered in with 30 gallons of compost tea. There probably is a lot of microbial activity.


I think you are right, that it was giving off tons of Co2. I was also sent a link by another kind member to someone on social media discussing the exact same situation. Also stumbled on an old IC mag thread discussing it as well.


Fairly certain the Co2 controller works, the bottles were not leaking, and it was just a ton of microbial active organic matter inside a sealed room. Saw the Co2 levels start to drop down through the night. When I last left it was down to 1300. Hopefully as all the beds are plugged with Co2 hungry plants, they will consume the Co2 down and the controller will finally have to turn on.

Appreciate the input and information. I was feeling a bit distraught earlier. Was ready to return the Co2 controller to the shop, or pull out my hair!

Mr^^

yeah organic soil raises co2 rates

When organisms die, they are decomposed by bacteria. Carbon dioxide is released into the atmosphere or water during the decomposition process. Same thing happens fermenting when making alcohol. Some people suggest adding brewers yeast to soil, this may very well be why.

Learn to harness this and you won't need to supplement CO2 with tanks or burners anymore.
I don't know if it's because of the barley or that it is just general microbial activity.
To me it's just another gift from nature.

How long have you been growing organically? Is this your first run, because you didn't noticed it before on your CO2 controllers?

Would it be possible to regulary post updates about the CO2 level in your room throughout this run?

I've noticed this too. Not quite as high as you, but definitely 3-4 times over baseline co2 ppm.

The de-composition process is a lot like combustion.

When yard waste is composted at an industrial facility, 5/6 of it, by volume, "disappears".

But it doesn't really disappear, it ends up being CO2 (as it is with combustion.)

1 celled organisms (bacteria etc., the micro-fauna that make the soil great) are a little like people. Oxygen in, CO2 out.

It's better than if your soil went anaerobic. That would smell.


Also one of the reasons Planet Earth will never get back to 350 ppm CO2, as long as there are 7.6 Billion people on-board.

St. Phatty has a point concerning organics. If we are "cycling carbon" or it's going back into the atmosphere that isn't really the same as sequestering carbon. However I believe some of the carbon is fixed at least temporarily in other words organic does have environmental benefit. I forgot what thread this is but if you are dealing with growers who love spending time on the boat and toys trucks hot rods cars etc., it sounds fun but you have to remember who you're talking to regarding environmental damage and priorities in life etc.

You've discovered that filling a room with yards of organic soil brings full CO2 supplementation along with as a bonus freebie! Way to get two birds with one stone. Also helps us organic guys a lot - buying more dirt instead of a CO2 injection system I love it One of the biggest extraneous sales IMO, or complicated, many people don't get to. I'm not up to date on the exact math of CO2 injection but I suspect a lot of people spend money on the parts and do not end up realizing the return on investment compared to the few who actually set things up properly.

Co2 supplementation when done correctly can be phenomenal, without it people achieve over 1.5 grams per watt already...

Thanks for all the replies everyone, really appreciate it. Still a bit in awe over the amount of Co2 captured. Really interesting.

Cvh: I have been growing organically for quite a while, but I just went back to cropping indoors, as well the room is larger and sealed. The Last time I actually did some cropping indoors, was maybe 9 years ago and I was running hydro nutes in pure coco fiber. Have mixed a lot of organic soil outdoors. Although I feel like I learn something every season, can get a bit bored cropping canna, but soil and genetics keep me interested.

I have gone full circle a couple times over my life, from as organic as possible to the other side of sterile reservoir hydro and back to organic as possible. On an organic kick for the most part of the last decade.

I will post the Co2 rates as often as I can, at least until people get tired of me clogging up the section with Co2 rates. Also have been releasing a decent amount of beneficial insects, so maybe I can post a little results about them. Started with Nematodes and Ladybugs, now trying Nematodes and Green Lacewings. Have some 4000 red wigglers and 200 euro night crawlers on the way as well.

Thanks again,
Mr^^

Oh god I used to used spent grain in my after Brewing on a commercial scale. Plants loved it but I had co2 overload and barely absolutely stinks like puke after fermented in soil gross juices coming out of the pots too.

Last night at lights out was down to 1300 ppm Co2. Today at lights on 4400.

Hung some green lacewing egg cards, should be interesting. Still releasing and seeing Ladybugs. Fresh container of nematodes in the fridge, still seeing the occasional fungus gnat but compared to before the first nematode release its a huge night and day difference. Still seeing an occasional aphid, sort of surprised, but assuming there time is limited as well. Aphids were brought in during outdoor harvest with the crop, and with a few clones that were cut in the field.

Realize the thread is super boring and clogging up the section, once it is all plugged and vigorous maybe I can upload some photos. Entire run is seed stock, 80 females. Will be attempting no-till replants with cover crop, once the first run is done and we have some clones.

Mr^^

Ibechillin said:

Co2 supplementation when done correctly can be phenomenal, without it people achieve over 1.5 grams per watt already...

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I remember reading grow books back in the 1980's.

They recommended CO2 levels of 389 ppm. That's with additional CO2.

Little update, sort of interesting. No pictures still but most of the canopy is filling in, perky, and green. So hopefully snap a couple pics soon.


So this Co2 enlightenment, really made me loose some sleep. I was very close to cutting an intake and an exhaust into the newly sealed room to get rid of the excess Co2.

Luckily I had a little patience, and the soil is slowly releasing less and less Co2, while the plants are growing and consuming more and more Co2. So it is staring to reach an equilibrium during lights on.

So apx 9 days into transplant, and maybe 11 days into the soil being mixed the Co2 is almost stable, but is still slightly rising with lights on. At one point with the lights off, the room exceeded 7,000 ppm Co2. Now at lights off the room peaks around 4,000 ppm. So lights on, I open the door, let it vent off down to 900 or so, then seal it back up for the night. It will get close to 2,000, but each night the increase has slowed down.

I assume at some point soon, I will have to supplement the Co2 via the full tanks sitting in the corner.

Boring, boring, I know sorry! Although I had a couple interesting thoughts, and a little experiment.

So the thought... from the limited amount I actually know, or have at least read about the soil was releasing those vast amounts of Co2 from both the microbes and the nitrogen cycle/composting process. The soil originally was releasing a ton of Co2, but it has began to slow down. Which leads me to the conclusion, that either there is less microbial activity, and or the nitrogen cycle/composting has slowed down. So my thought/question, is it possible to use the soils Co2 respiration rate as a measurement of the soils performance/energy. As in, the Co2 respiration slows to a crawl, the soil and microbes need fresh food. If the Co2 respiration is off the charts then the soil/microbes are fully stocked for the time being. Really rough hypothesis, surely 100 mistakes in it and hopefully some of the Gurus can point them out, but I thought it was a very interesting idea, and the possibility to use a feasible home measurement to help keep the soil/microbes well fed.


The small experiment, is based off that thought/hypothesis. Going to be doing a weekly AACT anyways. Using a 30 gallon cone bottom, air lift brewer (design from Microbeman, works great). Very simple AACT recipe from MM's website, with the addition of a little Mammoth P, and OGBiowar for some microbial diversity. Currently the room is using about 60 gallons of water every 2 days. The dehumidifiers recover close to 10 gallons a day of the water, so apx 20 gallons a day are being consumed by the plants hopefully. Once a week the entirety of the soil will receive a complete drench of 50% AACT, 30 gallons of tea, diluted into another 30 gallons of water. The experiment will be monitoring the Co2 respiration of the soil, before and after the AACT application. I assume 30 gallons of AACT has a lot of microbes in it, so should maybe see a boost to the Co2 respiration. Will also try to track the Co2 respiration before after a big top dressing.


Green Lacewing egg cards, were a little discouraging. Not sure if they hatched or what happened, but I did not notice much action so far. Some fungus gnat larvae hitched a ride into the room on the 2500 worms that were put in the beds, so we have had a small explosion of fungus gnats, right after I was celebrating there defeat from the last battle. So more nematodes to be ordered, more ladybugs as well. Cleaning up some of the canopy earlier and noticed a handful of Aphids still, amazing to me, so many ladybugs crawling on everything looking for food, but not eating the aphids... ffs.


Top dressed a very small amount of Roots Organic Terp Tea. Have a few pounds left over from last years outdoor. Seems like a decent top dress, the ingredients are diverse and a little unique. As in, some stuff that I don't normally buy, so I like the idea of adding a little bit of it in. Two negatives about it, one the price.. I feel like dry amendments, even a blend should not really exceed 2 USD a pound. The most expensive amendments are typically less than 2 USD a pound, so a blend that has cheaper amendments in it has no reason to exceed that price, the company is just extorting growers imo. Second negative, it is milled so fine, that a small breeze, or even water will make it air born, flying all over the place. As well it is not really water soluble, it is just really finely milled amendment blend. After some trial and error, I now mix it with a little moist compost prior to spreading it. So put some moist compost in a bucket/tub, then very slowly carefully add some Terp Tea, and gently mix it in, then top dress. Seems like a decent top dress, if you are in the mood to splurge/waste some funds.

Mr^^

purplepassion said:

Oh god I used to used spent grain in my after Brewing on a commercial scale. Plants loved it but I had co2 overload and barely absolutely stinks like puke after fermented in soil gross juices coming out of the pots too.

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Malted barley is very different than the spent grains from brewing. According to what CC said, anyway. When you take a sprouted grain and grind it and add it to your soil or worm bin it provides all sorts of benefits and zero smell. I’m sure that adding a fermented grain would stink. Fermenting doesn’t usually smell “good” to me anyway. I’ve been seeing great results with the addition of malted barley in both my worm bins AND my plants.

MedResearcher said:

So the thought... from the limited amount I actually know, or have at least read about the soil was releasing those vast amounts of Co2 from both the microbes and the nitrogen cycle/composting process. The soil originally was releasing a ton of Co2, but it has began to slow down. Which leads me to the conclusion, that either there is less microbial activity, and or the nitrogen cycle/composting has slowed down. So my thought/question, is it possible to use the soils Co2 respiration rate as a measurement of the soils performance/energy. As in, the Co2 respiration slows to a crawl, the soil and microbes need fresh food. If the Co2 respiration is off the charts then the soil/microbes are fully stocked for the time being. Really rough hypothesis, surely 100 mistakes in it and hopefully some of the Gurus can point them out, but I thought it was a very interesting idea, and the possibility to use a feasible home measurement to help keep the soil/microbes well fed.

Mr^^

Click to expand...

From what I understand the microbe/fungi thrive when there is low plant available nutrients in the medium. As they decompose more material the available forms they release back into the soil create an environment that harms them (phosphorous is the best example ive found for this, other nutrients seem fine unless in excess quantity).

MedResearcher said:

Transplanted a row last night, then a second row this night. Last nights showed a little shock at lights on, but seemed to be coming back around after a couple hours.To top it off, both beds were each watered in with 30 gallons of compost tea. There probably is a lot of microbial activity.


I think you are right, that it was giving off tons of Co2. I was also sent a link by another kind member to someone on social media discussing the exact same situation. Also stumbled on an old IC mag thread discussing it as well.


Fairly certain the Co2 controller works, the bottles were not leaking, and it was just a ton of microbial active organic matter inside a sealed room. Saw the Co2 levels start to drop down through the night. When I last left it was down to 1300. Hopefully as all the beds are plugged with Co2 hungry plants, they will consume the Co2 down and the controller will finally have to turn on.

Appreciate the input and information. I was feeling a bit distraught earlier. Was ready to return the Co2 controller to the shop, or pull out my hair!

Mr^^

Click to expand...

You just invented something Mr!...Free co2 !...Hmmm if only you could hook up a device that links up to a fan, and keeps co2 at the levels you choose

I can possibly confirm that organic soil definitely gives a big boost to co2 levels. Last "round" I was able to finish an autoflower grow (20/4 photoperiod - ~80 days) with a 20 pound CO2 bottle. I still use the same for the new round . CO2 levels averaged ~1000-1200 PPM. Of course another thing that highly contributed to that is that most of the days I was working for at least 3 hours in there. My room is fully insulated and I don't use any extraction fan so those parameters definitely contribute as well.

A few days ago I put a new batch of organic soil mix (without planting any seeds) in the CGE I have made. It is about 60 gallons of soil in a 10x10x10 room. Normally CO2 rates are ranging between 700-1100 PPM (I have set my controller at 450-500 PPM because plants are at seedling/late seedling stage but so far not even one time has it been turned on).

When I put the new batch of soil mix in the room CO2 PPM were ~700. After 12 hours I entered into the room and PPM were at 2250. Since I don't have an exhaust fan I'm leaving the room open to vent it and lower the PPM at 700. CO2 rates are climbing again really fast after I close the door.

Wondering if the exposure of seedlings/late seedlings to such high CO2 rates is bad for them.