The growing large plants, outdoors, thread...

nomaad · Oct 25, 2009

Hey Tom... While I am waiting for the second half of my harvest to ripen, I have been cleaning up from this summer's grow... I gotta say that I feel REALLY uncomforatble...maybe even ashamed, of the huge pile of plastic that resulted from my use of bagged soil.

7 palettes of Roots makes for a dick-ton of plastic bag refuse. The pile (uncompressed) is about the size of a VW bug.

My question is whether you have ever used dirst that comes by the truckload (my friends got truckloads of something called "spyrock mix" this year... they did pretty well, but it was not a large container grow like we do... its was a pretty classic style grow with lots of smaller plants. He did well, but I can't really compare because of the vastly different paradigms.

I have been giving a lot of thought to your mix and I'd like to mess with it next year, but I am looking to avoid using another 7 palettes of dirt and creating the attendant refuse.

Any experience with "truck dirt?" Can you recommend a provider that will deliver in the 707 sphere? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

Tom Hill · Oct 31, 2009

Heya Nomaad,

I do not know whether or not they are still in business, but years ago and going back for decades there was a small outfit in Piercy Ca, called the "primo soil" co. This was an absolutely outstanding ready-to-go and well proven soil mix. It was available loose by the yard in a truckload, or in very tough reusable woven polypropylene bags that also came in handy for several other uses around the farm.

That SpyRock mix sounds pretty good, I've not used it, but know a few guys who do and they seem to like it too.

A few of the local nurseries will prepare custom mixes for you as well, but do be careful - many are using low quality (still hot as hell) mushroom compost as their base. There are many horror stories over the years of folks killing plants with such mixes. I might not jump in hook line and sinker all at once, but let any new/unproven mix prove itself before completely switching over.

Herein lies the danger, imo. These bulk mixes often change from one year to the next. If this SpyRock mix sold out this year (with mushroom compost that rested for years), will they simply take delivery of a new hot as hell mushroom compost base in the spring and start mixing it up/shipping it out again? Maybe so, I don't know, caution is advised.

I hear you about the waste amigo. Best of luck and please report back if you do find something that works particularly well purchased in bulk like this as I'm sure many folks would like to hear about it. -Tom

nomaad · Oct 31, 2009

thanks for the input, tom. my friends used truckloads of dirt from somewhere in Sonoma this year... they killed it...reported no problems with it being too hot. On the other hand, those people I know who used the Spyrock mix were having problems.

I'll get the details on the Sonoma connect.

I am considering getting a truckload of spyrock mix in the next few weeks and seeing how I feel about amending it and leaving it to sit till next year's outdoor.

Tom Hill · Oct 31, 2009

Another thought might be to bring field meters with you when shopping new soil mixes.

I don't remember the name of it (I'm pretty sure, but am not 100% positive so I won't slam them here publicly) but there was a bagged soil mix out of Humboldt in the last few years - so many are popping-up these days.

Anyway, a friends plants were rapidly dying in this mix and she called on me to diagnose the problem.

When I showed up, both the EC/ERGS and Na meters were way off the charts - the sodium was the problem. When I called the company to warn the owner of this, he actually said to me "impossible, we don't put any salt into our mix at all". I couldn't believe it. Some of these guys have no clue whatsoever.

My friend could have saved all this headache and her crop if she had only done this testing before the (very substantial) purchase of this toxic dirt - instead we tied-up/complexed as much of it as we could and barely managed to hobble through.-Tom

nomaad · Oct 31, 2009

great advice, tom. thanks. I have never done this kind of testing on soil, but I will start learning more about it... i'd love to compare tried and true bag dirt (used roots and 707 this year) with the bulk stuff... for sure don't want to fall into a situation like your friend.

humboldtlocal · Nov 1, 2009

I am pretty sure they still sell Primo in Piercy, but I remember about ten years ago they had a bad batch and it killed starts all across the area. Friends of mine ripped down an entire greenhouse because they thought they had some crazy bug infestation that was killing all of their starts. I would steer clear of it and look elsewhere. I used year old Spy Rock blend in one of my gardens and it was still hot. We cut some of it with basic mix and those trenches did better than the ones that got straight Spy Rock. The ones with the straight spy rock had all of the leaves yellow out when they went into flower. McClelan Mt will deliver dump trucks of Power flower too. It is very good dirt. I have used it to amend old holes and it works great. They have a mix now with rice hulls mixed in that should lighten it up a bit. The regular Power Flower is really heavy and thick. Some have had drainage issues in pots, I think that is why they added rice hulls.

nomaad · Nov 1, 2009

One of my homies used a roots/flower power mix this year. he is doing...very well. thanks, bro... great to have that bit of info. I did not add rice hulls or perlite to my mix this year and I feel like I could have had a lighter soil mix...so I was planning on amending whatever I wind up with in the future with either hulls or perlite.

I have used rice husks in concrete mixes that i have used to fill non-structural bamboo joints and for wall plasters... it has a very high silica content so you can back way off the sand in the mixture and still have a strong bond without all the weight... I wonder if this silca content would obviate the need for adding the Potassium Silicate products I've been using to strengthen the stems on my plants.

Tom Hill · Nov 1, 2009

Hi Humboldtlocal,

Too funny you guys, I wouldn't doubt it regarding primo for the same reasons I mentioned before re bulk mixes changing from year to year, but, this flower power (or Power flower?) is the one that I didn't want to mention..... The owner that said he didn't put any salt in his mix, lol, the Na meter registered below 1.0, this is pure death!

It plainly said right on the bag to plant straight in it and it all but killed my friends crop. I hope they have grown out of their ignorance and have corrected the very serious problem that they had with their soil.

Rice hulls I love almost as much as lava rock, but they rob N from the soil and attract termites too.

All of this conflicting testimony is a perfect example of how important it is to take matters into our own hands and purchase the field meters and learn how to use them properly. To hell with anything else, or risk tens of thousands of dollars to kiss goodbye hundreds of thousands.

I recommend a pH meter, an ERGS (energy released per gram of soil) meter, and an Na (sodium) meter at the very least. These can all be purchased from Peaceful Valley Farm Supply- groworganic.com . Just as important, request/demand the excellent info from Organic Ag Advisors (Amigo Cantisano) that should come with them providing excellent insight on how to use them properly as well as what to do if you run into problems.

I am hereby and forevermore advising,,, pleading,,, to test all soil, bagged or not, before purchasing large amounts.

There is just way too much at stake. -Tom

humboldtlocal · Nov 1, 2009

Great info Tom. I am going to be using your mix posted earlier in this thread to re-amend all of my soil next year. The idea of not feeding till bloom really appeals to me. That power flower is really hot and I always cut it with Ocean Forest or just used it to amend. I actually stopped using Ocean Forest after I got several inconsistent batches. I did use roots organic for my starts this spring and it seamed like it worked just fine. I was one of these guys that would not jump on the hot new soil bandwagon but I did give the roots a shot. I did not try the 707 though. Thanks again Tom for all the great info. I love learning and improving. I am already getting excited for next year.

nomaad · Nov 1, 2009

TomHill said:
I recommend a pH meter, an ERGS (energy released per gram of soil) meter, and an Na (sodium) meter at the very least.

and at the very most? i would rather be over-equipped for the task than under.

Power Flower: are we talking about the same stuff that comes in the plain brown bags?

nomaad · Nov 1, 2009

humboldtlocal said:
I am already getting excited for next year.

next year? greenhouses will be rockin by mid-feb over here. I guess the cool part will be that all you guys who were too busy doing the same thing as me over the summer might have some free time to come hang out in the Gh with me over the winter.

humboldtlocal · Nov 1, 2009

That is the stuff.

nomaad · Nov 1, 2009

that's a shame. i have been happy with my Roots and 707... I wonder what it costs to get a dump truck from Oregon to my back yard. Of course, you have to worry that they will not be as good next year. I think this is going to be a major topic of discussion as we count down till May 15th.

Tom, thanks for the N leaching info about rice hulls... I guess I'll go with perlite instead.

humboldtlocal · Nov 1, 2009

I think you should just re-amend your current soil using toms amendment recipe. I am going to follow that recipe for new holes and smart pots too. I want ten pound clones. I just saw that Spare Time sells 300 gallon smart pots now. Yippie!!!

nomaad · Nov 1, 2009

If you call the local smartpots rep, they will custom make your pots to any specs. You can probably just order them through any of the dealers to spec as well... takes about 30 days if you wait till the spring... next year, I'd expect lots more demand so I'd consider ordering early. Biggest I have seen were 20" deep 600 gallon. Its like a 8 person hot tub.

I am putting in serious veggie gardens next year, so I am going to use this year's soil in some really big raised beds. Otherwise I'd use Tom's mix... I am still probably going to use it, just looking for an alternative to the 7 palettes of Black Gold I would need to fill the pots.

Tom Hill · Nov 1, 2009

Yeah, somewhere on that ^^ bag in the small print it says/use to say "plant right in me, no problem" which is very ill advised in my experience.

The other two meters in my arsenal are an ORP (Oxygen reduction potential) meter and a refractometer (reads degrees Brix/%sucrose), all from the above link- peaceful valley farm supply - groworganic.com. Though I would not take these last two along with me on a new soil hunt, I like to have them and again, ,, them along with the literature that comes with them from organic ag advisors (Amigo) has given me a more complete understanding of soil biology than pretty much anything else that I have ever possessed, sincerely, they are all worth the money -five meters total. -Tom

nomaad · Nov 1, 2009

sweet, bro. thanks. i am all about a well-equipped bat-belt.

Tom Hill · Nov 1, 2009

In that case I look forward to joining you sometime soon as we give them hell together up in the organic soil forum lol, a 45 pallet garden soil delivered on site by you probably know who

-Tom

VagPuncher · Nov 1, 2009

Well fuck me

zenoonez · Nov 1, 2009

TomHill said:
In that case I look forward to joining you sometime soon as we give them hell together up in the organic soil forum lol, a 45 pallet garden soil delivered on site by you probably know who -Tom

That is legal? Fuck me indeed. What county and what are the limits?

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