successful grows - veg time and pot size, plants per light?

GeorgeSmiley said:

Thanks a lot CC, no matter how able body I seem, it's always you and Cheeze doin the footwork Not totally but yeah

Smiley

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I like to fuck shit up just so I know what lines not to cross again,that's been my main process in lernin' organic soil..but CC is the guy you need to be listening to...(and all the other guys who know there shit..you know who you are)..he's been the voice of reason before I go to far overboard with any aspect of these components.

I have a small one room grow. I use 2 600 watt cool blue bulbs in a 6 ft light tube. I am also using 2 ice cube chillers. I have modified some old pots i have and stopped using the tall black 5 gal pots.

You can see pics of my pots on the womens forum. Also my cooling system. I will post other pics later.

I changed to the modified pots for a couple of reasons.

First because my plants were not growing thought to the bottom. There was just to much hard wet dirt to grow through.

The base height of the plant was to high.

The plants were not breathing right.

I was getting nutrient lock up.

Since the dirt in the bottom of the pot was always wet. I had acidic PH, lock up, and over watering issues.

I fixed all this by making shorter wider pots that still use 5 gallons of dirt. I am now able to miantain a 6.7 to 7.0 PH at the bottom of the pot. Please check out my other posts.

I probably veg. longer than most. I only have one room i use for every thing 1 crop at a time.

I have recently started supercroping.

I will try some of the above mentioned dirt recipes. Thank you for the continued assistance.

I get my best advice here. I hope that i am able to help as well. It is a continuos learning proccess.

Clackamas Coot said:

compost

How do you like the Blumat product? I've been using them for several months and would never go back.

CC

EDIT: It was GeorgeSmiley that first turned me onto these devices over tacos one day so a 'Thank You' is in order! Thanks, George!

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I love the blumats. I only use them in flowering since in veg I am using a big container and only water like once a week as is. Once every 10 days in flowering ille give the plants a good "hand" watering with a decent runoff followed by a good tea. So many good reasons to use them lol.

One question coot(not trying to hijack this thread), how moist do you keep your soil? The first few weeks of flowering I saw more dry soil but the last few weeks its always moist on top.

compost said:

One question coot(not trying to hijack this thread), how moist do you keep your soil? The first few weeks of flowering I saw more dry soil but the last few weeks its always moist on top.

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compost

When I got the 'kit' as it's called I decided that I would go with 3 units per container @ 4 plants = 12 units. That seemed to be the best number of plants for a 600w HPS in a 4 x 4 room.

I placed them at 12 o'clock, 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock. I placed one of them about 2" from the main stalk. Another was about 4" from the stalk at another clock position and the final one is set at about 7" from the stalk at the other clock position. This one is fairly close to the edge of the pot.

It took me a couple of cycles to get the water drip process dialed in and to answer your question I maintain a level of hydration that is about the level I would have 15 hours after hand-watering a container, i.e. watering to the point where 1/2 of the total amount of water/tea/whatever is discharged from the bottom and sides of the SmartPot. A complete and total hydration.

IOW the soil is moist but still 'crumbly' (I think that's the word) and not soggy at all. The soil is 50% coir or Canadian Spaghnam Peat Moss or a combination of both, 25% medium pumice (1/4") and 25% of EWC so I'm starting out with a potting soil that can take a lot of water and still have the ability to breath through the sides of the SmartPot.

HTH

CC

Clackamas Coot said:

compost

When I got the 'kit' as it's called I decided that I would go with 3 units per container @ 4 plants = 12 units. That seemed to be the best number of plants for a 600w HPS in a 4 x 4 room.

I placed them at 12 o'clock, 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock. I placed one of them about 2" from the main stalk. Another was about 4" from the stalk at another clock position and the final one is set at about 7" from the stalk at the other clock position. This one is fairly close to the edge of the pot.

It took me a couple of cycles to get the water drip process dialed in and to answer your question I maintain a level of hydration that is about the level I would have 15 hours after hand-watering a container, i.e. watering to the point where 1/2 of the total amount of water/tea/whatever is discharged from the bottom and sides of the SmartPot. A complete and total hydration.

IOW the soil is moist but still 'crumbly' (I think that's the word) and not soggy at all. The soil is 50% coir or Canadian Spaghnam Peat Moss or a combination of both, 25% medium pumice (1/4") and 25% of EWC so I'm starting out with a potting soil that can take a lot of water and still have the ability to breath through the sides of the SmartPot.

HTH

CC

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You always give a good answer CC. My mix is very similar except vermiculite and perlite instead of the pumice. I think I am using to many drippers and need to switch some of them out for more of the units. I had my hand watering down to a science but....

Its nice to go grab the bucket from the dehumidifier and dump it into the res. Water usage and disposal is always a pain for me. The reduction of usage these provide is amazing.


Albertine,

There are other things that will up production. The smart or air pots would be an example of something you can incorporate into your grow that will increase yields when all other factors remain constant. I don't like paying a ton of money for different products from the hydro companies growing in soil, but some are worth there weight in gold also.

Go and look through some of the products and then run searches here on the boards and see what people are saying. I am a strong believer in hygrozyme even though the labeling is BS. For salt ferts maybe a flushing agent, and for organic some beneficial bacteria/fungi.

Would anybody be able to post a copy or a link to CC's mix?

louie said:

Would anybody be able to post a copy or a link to CC's mix?

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THis is what it was a few months ago. CC's been talking abot some changes he's made but this is what I based mine off of.

Clackamas Coot said:

Here's mine..................

Base Mix

4x coconut coir
3x peat moss
1x vermiculite
1x perlite
1x pumice

Mineral Mix

1x Azomite
1x glacial rock dust
1x soft rock phosphate
1x NJ green sand
1x limestone

Compost Mix
1x local organic compost
1x Alaska humus
1x EWC

Amendment Mix

Several seed meals, fish meal, fish bone meal, kelp meal, neem meal, crab/shrimp meal, bokashi bran.

Lime Mix (as per Steve Solomon's COF formula)

1x dolomite lime
1x oyster shell powder
1x gypsum

Soil Mix - 5 gallons

3x base mix
1x compost mix
1 cup amendment mix
1.5 cups mineral mix
.25 cup lime mix

CC

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HTH
Smiley

Blumat Jr's are one of the biggest improvements I've seen in my gardens. Being able to keep the plants at an optimal moisture really seems to pick up the growth. This is in flower though, not veg. Since i dont have a long veg time i'm gonna try and do a no transplant grow next time. Looking for 4oz per 150w(3/4o per plant).

CC- That custom mix sounds awesome! You always seem to have some of the best put together mixes i've seen.

I am so tired of having a post almost written then hitting a wrong key and having it vanish!
So, shorter - renaissance times here in information for growing - what a forum!

BTW for George, the plant I potted up at the beginning of the midflower fade is holding much greener than the ones I topdressed. The type of ewc could have something to do with it - the marwest I just got has a lot more N in it as it is pure castings - I used 4 corners/Yelm. I think there is something about the fresher soil that makes for more effective uptake.
Pain in the ass but possibly worth it. A plastic bag over the plant helps with dirt on the buds.

I took a flat sheet of the pond underlayment ( seems almost identical to Smart pot material), laid it in the drain tray with some drainage material under the sheet, folded the corners up and pinned them, and voila, a giant Smart pot.

Albertine said:

I am so tired of having a post almost written then hitting a wrong key and having it vanish!
So, shorter - renaissance times here in information for growing - what a forum!

BTW for George, the plant I potted up at the beginning of the midflower fade is holding much greener than the ones I topdressed. The type of ewc could have something to do with it - the marwest I just got has a lot more N in it as it is pure castings - I used 4 corners/Yelm. I think there is something about the fresher soil that makes for more effective uptake.
Pain in the ass but possibly worth it. A plastic bag over the plant helps with dirt on the buds.

I took a flat sheet of the pond underlayment ( seems almost identical to Smart pot material), laid it in the drain tray with some drainage material under the sheet, folded the corners up and pinned them, and voila, a giant Smart pot.

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Sounds very nice. One of these days when i dont have to worry about staying stealth, i intend to use the floor space of my secret jardin as a raised bed. The smart pot material would be perfect for this sort of job. Where did you get it??

I've really come to ignore yellowing in flower. Most of the time in my experince its just the plant finishing sooner than some of the others i have. Than again i try to plan my soil mix to the best of my ability and what it seems to be lacking. I only use small pots(never bigger than 2 gals) and havent had early yellowing even when i was running solo cup plants.

This was week 8 and they had just started yellowing like a week earlier...

sorry wrong thread

I got it from a small pond shop Pondcrafters, 503-621-3202, info@pondcrafters.net, Paul McGill. Tried some a while ago that I found online, for sewn pots, and it was much thinner than this even though this guy called this 6oz and the other was called 12oz.

I'm looking forward to getting a good soil together - these are just going down too early, but I have plenty of factors that need fixing. Looking forward to incorporating some charged biochar in the recycle.

Bigballin, do you have a recipe you could share? If you can get through flower in a 2 gal, sounds like a good one.

Remember that a more effective topdress of Compost/EWC will be to scratch it in gently as you water. Sort of a water scratch in...just don't get to aggressive or drown the pot. Should only take 10 seconds or less. I get results in around a week or more....

Albertine said:

Bigballin, do you have a recipe you could share? If you can get through flower in a 2 gal, sounds like a good one.

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Albertine

Here's a very simple mix that you can make up and fly...............

All are available at Concentrates and/or Naomi's

1 bag Sunshine Organic Growers Mix 2.8 c.f. @ $19.00
1 bag medium pumice 1 c.f. @ $4.50
1 bag Marwest Compost 1.5 c.f. @ $8.00

This will give you a little bit less than 5.5 c.f. for $31.50 or $5.72 per 1 c.f.

You'll need some minerals so I'd recommend that you get 'Naomi's Mix' which is sold at Naomi's interestingly enough and it's available in 50# bags and 5 or 10# bags.

Add 1.5 cups of this mix to each 1 c.f. of potting soil.

You'll need some seed meals and such - for down and dirty I'd recommend getting the product from Down-To-Earth called Bio-Fish 7-7-2 and contains the following: Hydrolyzed Fish, Fish Bone Meal, Feather Meal, Sulfate of Potash, Alfalfa Meal, Blood Meal, Acadian Kelp Meal and Dolomitic Lime.

Add about 1.5 cups of this mix to each 1 c.f. potting soil.

I recommend adding both the mineral mix and the Bio-Fish to the compost first and then mix with pumice and finally the Sunshine Mix.

This will take care of business all day long. Could you improve? Sure - adding some additional kelp meal (about 1/4 cup to 1 c.f. of soil), some crab & shrimp meal (about 1/2 cup to 1 c.f. of soil), neem seed meal (about 1/2 cup per 1 c.f. of soil) will help things along but the basic recipe is far, far better than anything that you can purchase commercially with the exception of one product that Concentrates carries @ $9.00 per c.f. if that's a direction that you're considering.

HTH

CC

Albertine said:

Captin, have you had root aphids the last three grows? My plants didn't drink much and yielded little with them. If you are treating with neem on the roots that's not gonna help either.
Mine are gone now. I'm not having problems with watering - they're taking a lot of water.

I just saw a thread I can't find again that quoted Laura Ingram as saying that an overpopulation of bacteria from too much molasses can lock N out - maybe I'm proving that the teas with molasses have a balance that needs to have more attention paid to? I'm being sloppy with mine - bubble for 24 and put it on, ready or not.

Cheeze, you had somewhere some plants you finished in 2 gallons? How did they do?

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No root aphids since I started using the neem seed meal and crab shell meal...The plant that came infected was treated with a super hardcore neem oil soil drench. It finished with no further problems and I disposed of the soil just in case. Root aphids are usually introduced from bagged soil mixes...as are fungus gnats.
The plants in two gallon pots did great....just have to be on top of watering and flower them before they get too big in those pots.

Something you should also consider when putting together a soil mix is how does that soil mix correspond with your lifestyle..in other words,can you leave the garden for three days without the worry of watering? You can customize your mix to hold water longer in combination with the temp. of your room by adding more water holding material such as vermiculite,coco,peat,compost. Then again,you really have to be on top of your watering skills to manage the water consumption ratio per plant size,pot size,temp. etc. Sorry for rambling....

Albertine, my mix i have based off of Secondtry's "optimal" mix. I dont use two compost sources(just EWC) or the refined sugar crystals.

* 7 parts APBF; screen from 4 mm to 2 mm; pre-moisten with hydrolyzed fish, humic acid, H20 and polysorbate 80 as surfactant

* 1.5 part peat; screen over 2 mm; add polysorbate 80 as surfactant to initial drench water only

* 0.5 part high quality compost; screen under 4 mm; humus rich and mature

* 0.5 part high quality vermicast (aka vermicompost and EWC); screen under 4 mm

* 0.5 part biochar (pyrolyzed) rice hulls; screen under 4 mm; pre-moisten with hydrolyzed fish, humic acid, H20 and polysorbate 80 as surfactant

* 3 – 10 lb of powdered lime (50/50 mix of calcidic/dolomitic) per yd3 of media; ideal pHw is 5.5 to 6.5 (too much Mg can make media crusty)

* Tween80 (as surfactant mix only with peat, APBF and rice hulls)

(weight/weight)

* 4 – 6% azomite powder

* 4 – 6% zeolite powder

* 1% high N bat or seabird guano or preferably add high quality hydrolyzed fish to drench H2o

* 1 – 2% kelp extract powder or preferably add high quality kelp extract

* 1 – 2% un-refined dark molasses crystals or preferably add unsulfured black strap molasses (ideally ≥ 80 brix) to drench H2o

* 1 – 2% humic acid powder or add humic acid liquid extract to drench H2o

* 1 – 2% colloidal phosphate powder or soft-rock phosphate, etc


However there were some shortcuts i took. First off to eliminate having to add rock phosphate and bat guano i had just used Rainbow mix i had left over. I dont use his precise ratios and just mix until it seems right.

When i re-ammend i first feed it to my worms and add a large amount of powdered kelp meal and azomite/zeolite on top. When their done with it i may add some Epsoma biotone if i think they need it and some dolomite. I add Epsoma if i havent fed the worms fruits and things.

The main thing is the mixing of the pine bark mulch with the peat. This make the mix light yet holds tons of water and drains quick and easy. Its just a problem if you let it get too dry. The next biggest thing is the soaking of the pine bark and biochar in a mix of fish hydroslate, humic acid and tween 80. This makes the peat look and feel just like soil. If its been sitting a while before(months) i use it, i also spray down the mix with till well saturated.

A unique mix^^^^...... it works for BB and secondtry wasn't a dumbshit.

Capt.Cheeze1 said:

A unique mix^^^^...... it works for BB and secondtry wasn't a dumbshit.

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Its funny Capt, I use it for everything any i mean everything! I just planted lychee, jackfruit, mango and fig tree's in it and they love it.

It works very well to the point i never have to fertilize and makes gardening very easy to the point its boring. I really think the azomite, zeolite and APB help make this mix care free. IF you cant use the APB this mix is terrible because it dries out to quickly.

Wow, thanks you all!
Here's what I'm using right now:

per 20 gal Sunshine#4:
1 1'2 gal mix of Marwest, 4 corners, and yelm ewc
1 gal of Marwest compost
1 gal pumice
1/2c crab shell meal
1/2c neem seed meal
1/8c hi N bat guano
1c kelp
(for veg add 1/2c alfalfa)
1/4c hi p seabird
1'4c hi p indonesian guano
1/4c fish bone meal
1/2 c humic soil builder from Concentrates
2 1/2 c dolomite (soil sweet from Lily Miller, 2 to1 mag to calcium, but in varying sizes of grind looks too coarse)
1/4 c azomite
1c food grade DE flour
1/4 c premium k-mag

water with dilute ewc/molasses/kelp tea

I guess it's true confessions time - I'm not together enough yet to mix this up ahead of time, so I'm rationalizing that by saying there's plenty of stuff here that's immediately available. I'm sure this has a lot to do with running out quickly. I've been using different amounts of k-mag and it seems kind of lethal, at least for the sativa looking Cheese. Some of them are pretty crispy from using double that amount. Pretty sure it's from the k-mag.
CC, thanks for the suggestion earlier about the peat from Concentrates and BB, here for the instructions about charging new media - I can put that together and go beyond the Sunshine#4. I plan on getting some rock powders too, now that I will be keeping soil. Can't live withouts right now are the crab, neem, and kelp.

BB, out here I don't believe it's very easy to get aged pine bark fines - I think we have fir? I can use yucca extract for a wetting agent? I have a couple kinds already.

Barring more root aphids, I am planning on recycling enough soil to be able to let it rest for a while in between uses.
What I really want is some rice biochar. I know you are making it CC, but are there any sources for buying it until I can get a stove together? I'm in love with worldstove's bbq, but it'll take a while before I feel ok about ponying up that much cash. I would really like a TLUD heat stove for the house but I don't think it's been designed yet.

How are you liking using the rice hulls? Do you think they are helping to get that kind of mileage?

Thanks for the info on the aphids CaptCheese, but I was mistakenly referring to Captinknots fungus gnat thread - read part of it and thought he had them because he was talking about using aphid chasers. Sorry...
Going to the large beds is scary - I haven't seen any for over a month but had all these smaller plastic pots on a Tanglefoot barrier, so I could toss a plant if they showed up. Sure hope they are really gone. Guess I'll find out soon enough.
However , the idea of 3x3' smartpots with multiple plants per pot should really help in getting down the time spent watering.

Wassup albertine

Doesn't that marwest give ya a chubby ?

Anyways, your organic tools for root aphids in addition to the neem meal and sprays is Pyganic, 75 for a quart at concentrates. This is a big dog organic contact killer. It even kills the worms in the pot. I can get the ratio's for you if you ever actually get them. Drenches spaced evenly as well as spraying the drain holes and surface will get you there. So will hypoapsis mites from what I'm reading.

The gnats you can crumble the mosquito dunks or get some gnatrol off fleabay

Take some cardboard (pref yellow) spread tangle foot on them (way cheaper than buying sticky traps) then stick them to Popsicle sticks right down to the soil. Crawlers find it but for some reason it gets the flying really well. I had much more luck on thos cards than hanging.

I'm telling you this because if you continue to buy the soils that I buy then I can tell you that you will battle gnats time and time again if you don't get some of this stuff into your routine. I hate bugs..... it's part of my OCD.... A a really large infestation of gnats for me is about 20 and the problem is fixed. Doesn't that sound simple

If your mix is per 20 gallons as I read it then it looks like your guano usage is way below the 1-2 tablespoons per gallon. Of course I went with that and the guano is reallly nice and it's too much, too hot. So wondering how you arrived at the rate since it would save me some $$$. I gotta spend another $500 as it is

Seems to me the sunshine growers organic is superior to #4 from what I can tell because of the coir content. It's a better consistency and I find I use little perlite now. I am considering going to a larger size of pumice along with the 1/4". I hate perlite

Buy the Eco nutrients fish hydro at concentrates..... the plants love it and the smell is actually good. My wife doesn't like it but I really do when it's sportin some molasses. Funny what we find tasty after a while.

Anyways, rambling thoughts of a man on lvpk drysift ....wow

Glad to see another local

Smiley