Balancing Soil Minerals

m_astera · Sep 3, 2015

Cep wrote:

"In your years of growing in the PNW, did you ever have plants in soils with K saturation in the high range (6-15%) and in the same season have some growing in balanced soil (Ca around 68% and K around 4%)? If so, what kind of fungal pressure did you get when the rains hit?"

Cep- I never had the chance to do that comparison. When I was growing regularly there was in the early 2000s and I didn't know enough and hadn't figured out enough. I would speculate that the higher K levels would lead to a weaker immune system and more susceptibility to fungal attack. That is the way things usually work with excess K (and nitrates). I dealt with fungal attacks by spraying the plants with beneficial bacteria, which worked. These days I look at the Cu and Zn levels first if there is a fungal problem.

m_astera · Sep 3, 2015

milkyjoe said:
Michael...have you backed up soil tests with tissue testing for cannabis?

milkyjoe-

Living in South America for the last nine years, and not growing cannabis there myself, I have had no way to do any tissue testing. The comparisons with USDA average nutrient levels of vegetables (as shown at nutrientdenseproject.com ) are the best I have at present.

We know that mineral elements are the catalysts (and usually a structural element) for all enzymes and proteins. If a mineral is missing, in short supply, or overwhelmed by excessive amounts of another element (e.g. high P with low Zn, high K with low Ca), certain complex phytochemicals will not be made; the plant will be full of simple sugars and nitrates but lacking in polysaccharides, complete proteins, flavor and aroma.

I would like to see a tissue test comparing cannabis grown in soilless media fertilized with Miracle Gro versus that grown in the same media with "ideal" balanced minerals.

Cep · Sep 3, 2015

I'll do that test. I've submitted petioles to the local lab the past few years. I'm a little sketched out to do it again because the last time I was in the guy commented on the smell. I labelled them as hops and told him my plants just produce a lot of oil :biggrin:

This was from soil that had too much K and not enough micros. My soils are closer to ideal now and I have an indoor formula that I could use versus promix + miracle grow.

milkyjoe · Sep 3, 2015

An example

An example

So this is two year old soil in 200 gallon pots on something like 9 ft centers. It is around 50% top soil, 25% peat (to jack carbon up) and the rest small lava rock. I used peat instead of compost to avoid driving up K. Jeremy from build a soil worked with me on this...we went through 4-5 combinations before hitting on this one.

Logan Lab at the beginning of this yr.

tcec...20.15
pH....6.5 and still holding right there
organic matter....13.25
S...90 ppm
P2O5...606
Ca....68.59%
Mg...13.25
K......5.2
Na...0.55
H...,7.5
other shit....4.9
B...0.6 ppm
Fe.....193
Mn....49
Cu....2.38
Zn....8.51

To be honest I focus a lot on microbiology also. And I use foliars to both correct those micro shortages...fighting B and Zn all yr....and to get a little extra energy (or call it build luxury levels) in the plant.

I ain't claiming it is better than any other method. Just showing what I started with and where I am today. Judge for yourself what you think of it.

edit...hopefully you don't mind the example Michael. And please comment on any improvement you can see.

I intend to let K drop another % or two next yr based on what Cep has been finding. I am at 818 ppm K and 641 ppm Mg...thinking let the K drop to equal with the Mg.

trichrider · Sep 3, 2015

heady blunts · Sep 3, 2015

damn MJ

trichrider · Sep 3, 2015

http://www.advancingecoag.com/files/5914/1651/6661/AEA_20_Core_Concepts_.pdf

#5

heady blunts · Sep 3, 2015

ooo great read TR. saved for later.

m_astera · Sep 3, 2015

Cep said:
I'll do that test. I've submitted petioles to the local lab the past few years. I'm a little sketched out to do it again because the last time I was in the guy commented on the smell. I labelled them as hops and told him my plants just produce a lot of oil

https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=47892&pictureid=1271165 View Image

This was from soil that had too much K and not enough micros. My soils are closer to ideal now and I have an indoor formula that I could use versus promix + miracle grow.

Interesting plant tissue test. K is high, but Ca is high as well, which is good. Also Mn and Zn are high in both samples. Is the high level of Mn and Zn reflected in the soil test?

Or cannabis might be an accumulator of Zn and Mn?

At present no one knows what the optimal mineral balance in the cannabis plant is. The only way we will get comparative data is to generate it ourselves.

hup234 · Sep 4, 2015

M astera..whats your cure when p is off the charts @1089 thanks

m_astera · Sep 4, 2015

milkyjoe said:
View Image
View Image

So this is two year old soil in 200 gallon pots on something like 9 ft centers. It is around 50% top soil, 25% peat (to jack carbon up) and the rest small lava rock. I used peat instead of compost to avoid driving up K. Jeremy from build a soil worked with me on this...we went through 4-5 combinations before hitting on this one.

Logan Lab at the beginning of this yr.

tcec...20.15
pH....6.5 and still holding right there
organic matter....13.25
S...90 ppm
P2O5...606
Ca....68.59%
Mg...13.25
K......5.2
Na...0.55
H...,7.5
other shit....4.9
B...0.6 ppm
Fe.....193
Mn....49
Cu....2.38
Zn....8.51

To be honest I focus a lot on microbiology also. And I use foliars to both correct those micro shortages...fighting B and Zn all yr....and to get a little extra energy (or call it build luxury levels) in the plant.

I ain't claiming it is better than any other method. Just showing what I started with and where I am today. Judge for yourself what you think of it.

edit...hopefully you don't mind the example Michael. And please comment on any improvement you can see.

I intend to let K drop another % or two next yr based on what Cep has been finding. I am at 818 ppm K and 641 ppm Mg...thinking let the K drop to equal with the Mg.

Thanks for this info. Discussing lab results is one of the things I hoped this thread would be about.

Below is your soil report; I have added some comments and the numbers that would result from the Ideal Soil ratios listed in my third post beginning the thread.
~~
Logan Lab at the beginning of this yr.

tcec...20.15
pH....6.5 and still holding right there [nice, that is perfect]
organic matter....13.25
S...90 ppm Ideal S 157ppm (1/2 x P)
P2O5...606 [606 lbs/acre = 133 ppm] Ideal P=K=314ppm
Ca....68.59% [ =2764 ppm] Ideal Ca 2740ppm (68%)
Mg...13.25 [ =320 ppm] Ideal Mg 290ppm (12%)
K......5.2 [ =409 ppm] Ideal K 314ppm (4%)
Na...0.55 [ = 25 ppm] Ideal Na 69ppm (1.5%)
H...,7.5 Ideal H+ 10%
other shit....4.9
B...0.6 ppm Ideal B 2.74ppm (1/1000 x Ca)
Fe.....193 Ideal Fe 157ppm (1/2 x Ideal P)
Mn....49 Ideal Mn = 79ppm (1/2 x Ideal Fe)
Cu....2.38 Ideal Cu = 15.7ppm (1/2 x Ideal Zn)
Zn....8.51 Ideal Zn = 31.4ppm (1/10 x Ideal P)
~~~

I intend to let K drop another % or two next yr based on what Cep has been finding. I am at 818 ppm K and 641 ppm Mg [I think the report you are reading is in lbs/acre, which is 2x ppm]...thinking let the K drop to equal with the Mg.

The "Ideal" soil ratios with K @ 4% of CEC were developed with the goal of growing the healthiest possible food crops for people and animals. Higher K levels will often increase bulk yield, especially of carbohydrates, but a high-Potassium high-carb diet is not healthy; it leads to diabetes in people and metabolic diseases in grazing animals. I don't think a pasture or hayfield should be over 3% K saturation, along with at least 1.5% Na to keep the animals healthy.

That said, the ideal K saturation for world-class weed has yet to be determined. The aim, as I see it, should be is complex saccharides and oils/aromatics. As mentioned above, K is very important for the synthesis of carbohydrates, including fiber. Large amounts of K are used in growing cotton (fiber) and sugar beets. Oil seed crops such as rapeseed/canola also use large amounts of K. So optimum K is needed to synthesize large amounts of hydrocarbons as well.

5 or 6% K could possibly be ideal for cannabis as long as all of the other nutrient minerals are available in optimal levels as well, especially those that serve as catalysts in the formation of complex sugars, proteins, and oils/aromatics. Or maybe 3% K would be best. Remains to be seen.

m_astera · Sep 4, 2015

hup234 said:
M astera..whats your cure when p is off the charts @1089 thanks

I consider high levels of P a good thing. P is extremely reactive and is found at very low levels dissolved in the soil/water solution no matter how much total P is in the soil. Even if large amounts of soluble P (MAP, DAP, triple super P) are added, the P will rapidly tie up with any + charged ion or molecule it encounters, and generally lock up tight with that ion.

Phosphorus is practically immobile in the soil, and requires a strong acid to free it for plant or microbe or fungal uptake. Some fungal mycelia have been reported to be able to produce an acid environment of pH2; hence they are effective in scavenging even tightly bonded compounds like iron or aluminum phosphate.

The P found in phosphate rock, guano, and bones is already naturally combined with the "right" cations, mostly Calcium.

Because P is so insoluble and immobile in the soil, high P levels are good reserves and money in the bank. Once P has found its place in the soil, the only way it is going anywhere is either by plant uptake or erosion of topsoil.

Edit to add: High P levels need to be balanced by optimum Zn levels, or the P can block uptake of Zn. Zinc should be 1/10 of ideal P up to around 50 ppm. I don't think that amounts over 50ppm Zn are needed no matter how high the P reserves.

milkyjoe · Sep 4, 2015

Thanks Michael.

Tell me about Ideal C:N. I remain highly confused on this topic

trichrider · Sep 4, 2015

Cep · Sep 4, 2015

m_astera said:
Interesting plant tissue test. K is high, but Ca is high as well, which is good. Also Mn and Zn are high in both samples. Is the high level of Mn and Zn reflected in the soil test?

Or cannabis might be an accumulator of Zn and Mn?

At present no one knows what the optimal mineral balance in the cannabis plant is. The only way we will get comparative data is to generate it ourselves.

Manganese was 52ppm(200ppm Iron) with Zinc only at 1.2ppm.

I think I'll bite the bullet and start submitting petioles again.

milkyjoe · Sep 4, 2015

Cep...were you spraying micros?

Cep · Sep 4, 2015

No not that season. Well, kelp every other week and in drench but I don't think that would jack any specific micro up that high on a tissue test. Started using micros more heavily last year.

Ratzilla · Sep 4, 2015

Michael Astera
I have been aware of Soil Minerals and Black lake Organics going back a few years 2010.
In 2013 a sample was sent to you via Logan labs.
Your analysis said my soil sample was almost perfect except for trace stuff.
Hells bells your site had everything that I needed in the way of trace minerals and price was quite reasonable.
You told me to the gram of what should be added.
You made it easy.
It's been 3 years of recycling this mix and just replenishing with 3/TBL per 5 gallon of mix of B.L.O.O.M.without seeing any problems.
Again I think of you as one of the giants and thanks to you and your book have a very good understanding of how most of it works.
The first time I see a dot or smear on a leaf I'll be thinking of a analysis and getting in touch with soil minerals.
Not to even bring up the difference between Adsorb and Absorb.
You made the CEC easy to understand.
LOL starting to feel like your number #1 fan
Ratzilla
Love reading your post Michael
only Bozo's giving you a hard time because they don't know how easy masters like yourself have paved the way.
Much much respect!

m_astera · Sep 5, 2015

milkyjoe said:
Thanks Michael.

Tell me about Ideal C:N. I remain highly confused on this topic

The usual ballpark rule for estimating N release from organic matter in soil is that organic matter contains 5% Nitrogen by dry weight. So the stable and optimal C:N ratio would seem to be 20:1.

If the organic matter being broken down to humus contains a different C:N ratio the decomposition to stable humus may be delayed or not happen at all. If the C level is very high the microbes will steal N wherever they can find it, and plants often suffer from N deficiency while fresh organic matter is breaking down.

If the N level is very high, the microbes will monopolize any source of carbon, including existing soil humus. This is how high N applications burn up soil organic matter.

So, 20:1 Carbon to Nitrogen would be the goal when making compost or plowing under a cover crop. If carbon is excessive, add a nitrogen source, and vice versa.

A third and equally important mineral in this process is Sulfur. Without adequate S, the nitrogen in the organic matter will not be stabilized into soluble nitrates or adsorbed to exchange sites as ammonium NH4; much of it will off-gas as ammonia (NH3) vapors and be lost to the atmosphere.

From my experience, sulfur should be at least 1/2 of nitrogen, in the soil or in a compost pile. The best way to add S is in sulfate form, Calcium sulfate (gypsum) being a preferred source. Or, pure elemental sulfur can be added to the soil or compost. As long as the soil temperature is above 55* F, naturally occurring bacteria will transform the elemental S to SO4, sulfate, which crops can use directly.

For those not constrained by government organic rules, ammonium sulfate fertilizer is a good way to add both N and S to a high-carbon low-nitrogen soil or compost and speed up decomposition while conserving the most nitrogen.

m_astera · Sep 5, 2015

Ratzilla-

Thanks for the kind words. Results and confirmation are what make it all worthwhile.

Best
Michael A

Balancing Soil Minerals

Member

Member

Cep

Senior Member

Kiss My Ring

prescription blunts

Kiss My Ring

prescription blunts

Member

Active member

Member

Member

Senior Member

Kiss My Ring

Cep

Senior Member

Cep

Member

Member

Member